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The Quest to quit CIO - Page 2

post #21 of 55
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
PS-Is CIO more harmful than having the kids not nap, and get the sleep they need to develop properly AND also drive me completley bonkers in the afternoon because - uh-have you been around a 19 m old thathasnt napped?

I am not trying to start a CIO debate here, I agree it is not best, my actual question though is if you stop CIO and it happens again, are you just screwed and your kids are going to be scarred for life or can you redeem yourself. I guess from the posts I have read so far, it just scars them for life and they are forever changed.
i wouldnt think of it as it scars them for life either way to cio or not nap. there will be days (hopefully not too many) that the baby doesn't nap and there will be days when he at least has to wait a few minutes for what he wants/needs. but you want to stop cio as much as possible with 2 kids or else you wouldn't have posted here, right? we will give you ideas and you try them until something works. it might be a few days of transition though.
post #22 of 55
When you have more than one child, sometimes they're both needy at once and you can't meet everybody's needs. That's a simple reality of life with more than one child.

You do the best you can- you're only human!

When my girls were little, I used to bring both kids to bed with me for snuggle time, even if they didn't both end up napping. But then my kids were closer in age, so their sleep needs were more in sync than your kids are. Do you think that might work for you?
post #23 of 55
Things that have helped our nap routine are:

Wear Them Out, its so much easier and faster for me to put my baby down when he is tired and has been out and playing.

Be consistent, I think this is key too if you are trying to regain your baby's trust with sleep. Routines are helpful with this, we use (and have used for a LONG time) a short routine with nursing on a nursing pillow and snuggling with a lovie and a "shh" sound and white noise in the dark. These are Baby J's clear indicators that its sleep time. He now comes to me with a lovie or lays his head on the pillow (or throws the pillow at me!) and says shh when he is ready. I felt silly for a long time doing this but then one day he started doing those things and I felt vindicated.

Big kid treats, reminders and rhyming, I think routine helps with older kids too. Save something special that your older kid likes doing for naptime that is a treat only for that time of day. That and lots of warnings too, like "pretty soon we will have to put Baby X to sleep for a nap" and "ok, now we have to creep mousy because its time for baby X's nap." I give lots of reminders and then there is not a big shock of Be Quiet all of a sudden. We also say "creep mousy, creep mousy into grandpa's housey" in a whisper when we move around. Or we are quiet mice and that is like a game. I'm sure there are better rhymes out there.

Put your baby's trust first, I have a 3 1/2 year old and now he is pretty understanding of nap/night time and being quiet, etc. but we had many HORRIBLE days with him slamming the doors and demanding attention during naptime. And you can't ignore that in a tiny house when you are trying to put your baby down. In these cases, I would be the one to have to suck it up that day with ZERO time to myself and we would go for a walk and I would nap my baby in a carrier. This way, baby would get his nap and there wouldn't be anyone feeling alone and crying.

Multi-task and go somewhere else for naptime, of course, your older kid has a better understanding that you aren't leaving them forever when you leave the room but they also often feel alone, neglected, excluded and sad when you go to have special alone time that they are excluded from. My heart always broke for my DS1 when I saw it from his POV, so I tried to go somewhere with him for naptime. If you have somewhere within walking distance from your house that your kid likes going and your baby will sleep on the run this helped us on really crappy days. It diverges from the whole routine thing though.

Its tough to balance the two different schedules and sets of needs. There are times when our night story time (a really important time of day/routine thing for us) was interrupted 5+ times by Baby J waking up. I could see my older son getting sadder and sadder and feeling increasingly dejected and finally I decided that we needed to finish the last two dang pages of the book and that was the most important thing. : I always attend to crying or distressed sounds but our baby is one noisy sleeper, he talks, moans, flops all around, fusses, and takes a while to settle etc. Real crying takes presidence over pretty much everything else, but semi-wakeful noises (which we found we have a lot of) can wait if I am occupied with DS1. This was a shock for me to realize because I always just immediately responded with my boob to every little sound my DS1 ever made. I hope it gets easier soon for you.
post #24 of 55
what about giving your 4 yr old a choice, he can play quietly until the baby is asleep, or he can take a nap ( i betcha he'll play very quiet ) I don't know what kind of crib you have, but is it possible to drop it all the way down than take the side rail off so it's easier for you to rub her back? assuming she can get in and out safely.
post #25 of 55
I am at times as shocked by the question on these boards as by the responses. I found some of the responses as 'cruel' as CIO for the four year old as I do the whole CIO issue. I think telling a four year old to get a cloth and clean the table is a bit unusual (are you joking????).

I think the 19 month old and the four year old need a routine - I liked the idea of spending time with the two of them quietly in a room during nap time.

Not sure how far along you are, but you should definitely come up with a better bed time and naptime routine before little one arrives. (I am there now with a 5 yr old, 3 yr old, 19 month old and now 7 week old - and we have napped all of us together. It doesn't always work - but the 19month old knows the bedtime/naptime routine really really well - and has only really gotten there in the past 2 months or so - not a great sleeper before that!) I think routine is key to everyone's well being.

As to 'making' the bond back with your 19 month old, good momma loving repairs all past ills - kiddos love their parents even if they did something to mislead their confidence (it happens whether CIO (bad) or discipline issues (good)).

You love your kids, find a schedule (quickly) and don't worry about the past CIO impacts. However, be fair to four year old (and don't give him (her?) chores while you are tending the 19 month old - I can only imagine the problems I would have with my older pair if I did that - I give them something they like doing ... i.e. reward - when I am putting the 19 month old to bed).

Managing multiple kids is a huge step as compared to dealing with a singleton so I can understand how AP works really well with one kiddo but gets darn tough with more than one - much easier to lose your way.

Good luck and have fun!
post #26 of 55
I would think CIO would do more harm than skipping a few naps. It raises the cortisol (stress hormone) levels, slowing down the body's ability to learn, grow, and heal, and breaks trust with your child. Skipping a nap means some cranky time in the afternoon and maybe an earlier bedtime.

I have two, 19 months apart. Sometimes if both need me at once, one has to cry longer than I'd wish, but I always talk to them, let them know I'm here and will meet their needs as soon as possible.

My eldest knows my expectations when I'm trying to get my youngest to sleep. It's quiet time. I'm not mean about it, but I am firm. I sympathize with her desire to make noise and have my attention when she has one of Those Days, but I restate my need to provide her brother with the chance at a nap so he can rest and not be cranky later. She knows he'll be more likely to play with her if he isn't overtired. And if she chooses not to nap that day, we still have some quiet time so she can rest and chill out. If the day isn't going well and that means I throw a movie in to keep her entertained while I nurse the baby down, so be it. Better some TV time than CIO.

When I'm really frayed, I pop them both in the car or in the stroller and we go out for a while. Chances are the vibration and fresh air will do what I can't and get them to sleep. I really recommend this for when you have your third; you can put the two older ones in a stroller and wear the baby in a sling, get some exercise (which is good for mama's body and soul), and help them have some rest time.
post #27 of 55
I'd like to add another vote for babywearing. There have been so many other responses that the suggestions of babywearing may have been overlooked, or you may feel that you can't do it while pregnant. I admit that I haven't tried to babywear while pregnant, but I know that you can safely do a back carry in a mei tai, wrap, or some soft-structured carriers while pregnant.

I thought there was no way my kiddo (15 months) would fall asleep while on my back, but one seriously cranky, teething, no nap day I tossed him up on my back, got out the carpet cleaner and took out my frustrations on the carpet. The combination of being snugged up against my back and the white noise from the carpet cleaner had him out like a light within minutes.

I did feel like a contortionist getting him off my back, though. :-P
post #28 of 55
I only have one DC, but my friend found it helpful to ask her older children to "help her" with the baby, or ask for advice about the baby. It made them feel important and included.

I know I'm totally unhelpful, sorry. LOL. I just know that letting your LO CIO for any length of time isn't good.
post #29 of 55
I third or fourth the babywearing! Now that I newly have 2 kids instead of just one I got a pouch that I can wear in the shower (solarveil pool pouch) so I can do two things at once. It rocks.

As for other advice for juggling needs of 2 kids... I am all ears. We are having a hard time over here with DS1 adjusting to DS2.
post #30 of 55
Letting your baby deal with feelings that are strong enough to make her cry all by her self is harmful to her. I have 3 and its hard, but there are times where I have found my self on the floor with 3 crying kids on my lap - just letting them cry, telling them its ok, we will get through this. Maybe if you focus more on what the baby is telling you (and your four year old...he needs help through his tantrums. His feelings are not less important just because he is older), and less about rutines and structure. Take one day at a time. Maybe you will find 7 different ways to get through the day each day of the week. Maybe no day will look the same. But time will pass and they will get older and it will get easier. Having babies close in age is intense...but they still need to have their needs met when they are crying.
post #31 of 55
yes, you have a naturally entirely demanding chaotic at times scenario when you have multiple children at such young ages. accept that this will require you to be constantly flexible for years. you must keep things in perspective,....that rough moments are sometimes unavoidable, and things will indeed one day get easier.

in the meantime each of your young children are entitled to their share of full respect for their age appropriate behavior no matter how hard it is for you.

you need empathy and support for the crazy selfless moments. you need support and a place to vent and get feedback.

you do not need to justify crying it out or punishing/threatening any of your children. those things are simply not okay...ever.

but it is okay to say "good googalie magoogalie, i'm doing my best but this is hard sometimes!"
there's no magic,...just perspective, and trust that getting through the rough moments with your children's needs met to the very best of your ability....and planning ahead before the chaotic moments to try your hardest to avoid them....will certainly pay off. and it will get easier,...just not yet.

and ps...yes, you can always "redeem" yourself as a parent. children have true unconditional love towards their parents and are resiliant. but it's not okay to rely on their unconditional love as an excuse to cash in on that natural redemption.
post #32 of 55
Originally Posted by AnnD View Post
I am at times as shocked by the question on these boards as by the responses. I found some of the responses as 'cruel' as CIO for the four year old as I do the whole CIO issue. I think telling a four year old to get a cloth and clean the table is a bit unusual (are you joking????).
No, I wasn't joking. I have a three yr old that loves to help out and clean. SHe'll "do the dishes" for 30 minutes. She'll "fold" a load of wash cloths. She'll "wash" everything in sight with a rag and a spray bottle. It makes her feel important and she loves being helpful. I thought perhaps the op's ds would enjoy some meaningful tasks.... if nothing else, playing in the water (read "doing in the dishes" to a 3 yr old) at the kitchen sink is fun.
post #33 of 55
I read the whole thread, and am not going to reiterate what I agree with.... but I will say that if you have been doing CIO for SEVEN MONTHS, and she is still crying when you put her down -- then CIO clearly did not "work." I do not understand putting a crying baby down and then walking away, every day, for seven months. That is a long, long, long time to be using an ineffective method. I hate CIO in any form, but even people who advocate its use claim that its a training method -- not a way of life.

post #34 of 55
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Herausgeber View Post
Is your health OK? Your support network, etc?

noooo. I am just beginning to pull out of a deep deep deep depression (And I dont even know if I am "pulling out" I just know that I am cleaning more)

I had to change my parenting style because ap requires you to meet all the needs of your child and it is completley impossible to do that with more than one child. I should beb able to prioritize betetr though, Like sleep should be a higher priority than it is, kwim?

I am strugling to parent though, because of severe PPD, or depression, it hasnt been completley diagnosed. I didnt get off the couch for 2 months and i yelled at the kids to go play in their rooms. That royally sucked. Thank God I am working on healing now. I had to forgive myself for getting depressed-because I was a bad bad mommy.


PS-I dont have a AP support network, I dont know anyone who doesnt spank, shame, cio, etc. I have been attending LLL meetings to try and seek out some simaler parents but support will take some time. First I have to develop the relationships. I really dont have a support network-they all think I am doing my child a great service by cio. My dh can see that when she crys it tortures me to the point of just feeling suicidal and he has started sitting with her, for an hour even, for both of our sanity. I think he is doing it for her too, which means he is coming around!!!!
post #35 of 55
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by momtosimon View Post
No, I wasn't joking. I have a three yr old that loves to help out and clean. SHe'll "do the dishes" for 30 minutes. She'll "fold" a load of wash cloths. She'll "wash" everything in sight with a rag and a spray bottle. It makes her feel important and she loves being helpful. I thought perhaps the op's ds would enjoy some meaningful tasks.... if nothing else, playing in the water (read "doing in the dishes" to a 3 yr old) at the kitchen sink is fun.

My little boy will sit quietly for a few minutes....Until he feels the need to "HOOT" really loud or something. Boys make loud random noises.
post #36 of 55
jenny, being open about your depression is brave - i think you're on the right track to recovery. I think posters -- if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all. I'm going to send you a PM with my thoughts - this thread is somewhat turning into a flame : and i don't think that's nice (posters, there are other more GENTLE ways to get a point across)...i think there also have been some great ideas...follow those and ignore the others.

let me know if you didn't get my message.
post #37 of 55
I just wanted to add... it's SO hard with two. I keep waiting for it to get better and it is very slow. I have been so sleep deprived for so long that I have had times when I've felt completely crazy... it's so hard!!

Too bad people on this board can't treat each other as gently as they strive to treat their kids... especially when a mom really wants and needs help...
post #38 of 55

Hang in there.
Consider some of the advice you've gotten here about using a sling or giving your 4yo something to do while you rub your baby's back to sleep. I took the side off our crib making it a toddler bed and sat in a chair next to the bed holding my dd's hand.
Nothing will work 100%-- there will be days your 4yo will be loud and days he'll be quiet. There will be days with no nap...x

The No-Cry Sleep Solution book may help you out with some ideas.

Your children won't be scared for life by what's already happened. And that type of guilt doesn't really help anyone. Do your best. I know you don't want to use CIO and you don't need a lecture or debate.
post #39 of 55
Thread Starter 
Thankfully I am finally getting to a place where the flaming doesnt hurt because I am on a mission and allowing petty insults to affect me would sabatoge the mission.

Thx 4 the support though, this is not an easy job!
post #40 of 55
I didn't see any flaming. You were just being told the truth. If you get a chance, check out the CIO links (it's a sticky). They are very informative.
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