Talking with sons about rape and prostitution...

[Belleweather]

I admit that I'm thinking waaaaay ahead here, since my son is only 20 months and has just discovered his willy. But I was reading the blog of another AP mama that I really respect who was talking about how we create a society that respects women as equals and she asked what I thought was a really thought provoking question: whether parents talk explicitly with their sons about issues of rape and prostitution?

She was very much of the opinion that it was something that we as parents needed to address with our kids, and after thinking about it for an evening I'm inclined to agree with her. But I'm also rather at a loss as to how I'd manage it -- especially if you're a parent who believes that talking to your kids about sex shouldn't be a one-time chat but an organic and ongoing conversation. I'm also not entirely sure what to say; "Don't" has it's appeal, but firstly I'm not sure it really reflects MY beliefs about sex work and secondly I want to give my teenage son(s) more tools and concepts about respecting women and sexual beings (ie. "Don't rape someone" is less useful than "No means no, and the answer is no unless your partner has said yes..." or whatever works for your family.) and about dealing with the parts of these issues that aren't as black and white as I want them to be, like peer pressure or people saying 'yes' in a way that makes their real consent doubtful. I also really want my kids of both genders to have the ability to understand all this stuff from the perspective of the other gender in some way. Which is a tall order for a nice mama-kid chat!

I know the rest of you are way more in the trenches with these sort of issues than I am. I'm wondering if you have any advice or direction as I continue to think about and address this stuff while my kids get older?

[jlutgendorf]

Ok, I don't have any kids, much less a teen, but I was a teen once . . .

Personally, my parents (my mom more specifically) started "sex talks" with me early and often. I think she did the same for my brother, to a point (and then hopefully my dad took over).

I do remember her talking to both of us about "no means no". For me it was more along the lines of if I tell someone no, they need to listen and if they don't I get out of there and realize that they don't respect me, didn't have good intentions, etc. For my brother it was more along the lines of if a girl tells you no, you back off right then an there, you respect what she's telling you.

I guess since my mom had so many talks with me that were very open and honest, from a young age, I hope I would do the same for my kids. Sure, it was embarassing as a 10 year old to tell her exactly how babies were made, but by golly, I sure knew how it was done and how to avoid it! she also got us a dr. ruth book that was very factual and illustrated about body changes, sex, sexuality, etc. that let both of us explore some of these issues on our own in private.

The talks also progessed from initially being about body parts (boys and girls have differences and similarities) and reproduction, to responsibility and care for yourself and your partner, to one night stands, etc. (the one night stand talk was really fun!). I think the last talk I has was when I turned 18 and starting my senior year in HS. She told me that I was an adult and I could do as I wanted, but she hoped I would wait a little longer to have sex. If I didn't wait though, to let her know and we would figure out some sort of birth control for me and my partner. Again, embarassing, but at the same time, so wonderful of her to tell me she trusted me to make my own decisions but was still there to support me if I needed help.

I think since I learned about "normal" sex and sexuality from an early age and so often, that it helped me 1) be educated and safe (I knew girls that thought you didn't need protection the first time you had sex as you couldn't get pregnant then!) and 2) have a healthy attitude about sex and sexuality (it's a natural healthy thing, but is probably best shared with someone you know and trust) 3) taught me to respect myself and my body and not let anyone push me beyond my comfort zone (and not that there weren't folks who tried!).

Granted my personal beliefs may not be yours, but they've served and guided me well. And a lot of my experience comes from being a girl, so is probably different than how you would talk to your son.

Sorry for the rambling! hope some of that helps!

~Julia

[Marsupialmom]

If you read the paper or watch the news you will come up with times to talk about your attitudes and right and wrong.

I do recommend you talk about sex from early on. Not forcing sex is teaching kids to not touch other people unless they want to be touched. It also means respecting when they don't want to be touched.

It is teaching no means no. That if the other person says no don't continue. Move from that situation. That way there is no way for confussion of thoughts or communication. Let him know it is ok to say...."You said no. I think it is time to change activities so there is no confussions or lines crossed." It won't make him less of a man. This protects him from any confussion and when you are petting heavy it can be confussion. "No means no" can be vary confussing in situations in the back seat of the car. Don't flame me but some girls do mean no as a maybe or I don't know. Boys are taught to be persuers. Many girls will say no to a date but then expect him to ask again. I have worked with some teenage girls that got mad because she said no and he took it as no . Removing yourself from thouse situations protects yourself and the sex decission can be made "rationally". Some girls are socialized or have romantized sex as that they should be seduce (convienced) to have sex. The teen age years are pretty damn confusing.

Teaching the art of saying what you mean and mean what you say.

This isn't just to rape or prositution these our lifeskills.

You also need to empower him agains sex abuse/molestation. He can become a victem also. Teach him it is never right for the other person not to listen or make him feel uncomfortable.

He isn't less if someone does.

He isn't necessarily gay.

Getting an erection or ejaculating doesn't mean he necessarily liked or want it. http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/mal..._male_rape.htm

On prosititution that is your personal opinion.

My dh and I have no problem with legalized prositution when both parties are consentual. We would like to see it legalized and regulated so the participants are more protected and we can use our money on illegal prositution.

[incorrigible]

.

[Belleweather]

Firstly, I wouldn't teach "no means no". I don't think it gives people an accurate picture of the sort of complicated issues that go on with people (not even teenagers, adults too!) who are trying to negotiate sexuality. I DO really like "No means no and maybe means no and silence means no. Only yes means yes." Hey, it's got a few more syllables, but as a guideline for a teenage boy whose willy is leading him one way and brain is (hopefully) leading him another, I think it's more useful. And it's the rules I wish people would have played with when I was a teenager and an adolescent.

But I want to talk about WAY more than that... I think if you're JUST teaching "no means no", it's part of the problem. I mean, don't we as parents need to address stuff like "If you pressure her into saying yes, it's still no. If she's drunk, it's still no. If she's passed out, it's ABSOLUTELY no. And if YOU are uncomfortable it's no, too."? Maybe I'm influenced by spending time on a college campus, but that's reality, you know? Plus, I'd really like to be real with my kids about the facts of how our culture encourages men to be 'pimps' and women are stuck between being virginal or being sluts and at least help them think critically about that kind of stuff. So I need a lot more than just respecting other people's choices regarding their bodies.

Originally Posted by incorrigible

As for prostitution, I don't see it as any worse than premarital sex that doesn't involve $. Premarital sex has come up but not specifically paying for it. lol And, my attitudes (and what I pass down to the kids) is pretty much just "don't."

Yeah, Prostitution is tough. Personally, I don't think I'd tell him "Don't", but I'd want to talk about safety and point out that sex workers are people too and just because they're getting paid doesn't give him a right to be disrespectful to their inherent humanhood. Because eventually he's going to be an adult and he's going to have to work out how he feels about the morality of sex work on his own... and I seriously think that it's got a place in society. But I don't know how much of my OWN views and information I want to give him to get him through until then. I mean, I'd feel REAL weird trying to teach him to be a good customer at the nudie bar, you know?

[Arduinna]

We have taught our teenage daughter that the emphasis is on to not do anything she doesn't want to do. I also gave that same advice to her teenage boyfriend when he came to me to discuss sex. People who respect and have empathy for others don't generally want to puch others into doing things they don't want.

IMO the foundation of all of this is teaching kids that their opinions are listened to, valued and respected by the adults in their life. Then they expect that from their friends also. That comes from living it. That comes from not making your kid kiss grandpa because it's the "nice" thing to do, if they dont' want to.

[mommy68]

I started having age-appropriate talks with my boys very early on. I plan to keep doing that. I think if you start early with them it makes it a whole lot easier to talk about things as they start to get older and mature.

My boys watch some of the comedians on t.v. these days and see movies and hear things mentioned and so ofcourse they have questions. They already know about a lot of things for their age and I'm sure one day when older they will appreciate that we were so open with them. My mother wasn't like that. She would have rather made us all think sex was non-existant than to bring up the fact that everyone was doing it. Plus I don't want my kids to hear things from other kids. If they hear it from us first then chances are they won't listen to lies from their peers.

[happyhippiemama]

subbing just cuz it's interesting

[oceanbaby]

I haven't read the replies. And my oldest is only 6yo, so I am not speaking from experience, either.

However, my first reaction when reading your post was that I don't think that you need to specifically sit down and talk with your child about these things. I do think that it is an organic experience, and that we teach our children about respecting their bodies, respecting others, being sensitive, respecting personal boundaries, and keeping themselves safe from day one.

For instance, my son loves to slap my butt playfully. In the past when I have asked him to stop, he would keep doing it. I finally turned to him and said in no unclear manner: "This is my body, and I am telling you to stop." He got it. He has friends who don't like to be hugged. He learned that by running up to give them a hug and having them turn away. Our "rule" about aggressive/physical play is to make sure that the other person is okay with it, and to immediately stop as soon as they aren't.

We treat his body with care and respect. We talk about what is healthy and what isn't. I assume one day STDs will be a part of that conversation, which would naturally include having unprotected sex, as well as having a sexual partner who you know well enough to have had a dialogue about their past. (This is the part that bothers me about prostitutes - not the money for sex issue, but the possible spread of diseases and general dangers.) We (hopefully) teach our children to be true to themselves, and to make decisions that feel right to them, not that make them popular or bend to peer pressure. I would think that these conversations would be similar to or include discussions about druge use.

I can't believe I'm about to quote Madonna here, but I heard her say something one time that made a lot of sense to me. She was on Oprah (years ago, when her daughter was first born). Oprah asked her something along the lines of "What will you teach your daughter about men?" And Madonna said something along the lines of "I don't need to teach her about men. I need to teach her to respect herself, to be true to herself, to make good decisions, and to be a strong woman." That's kind of how I feel about it.

I don't plan on telling my child not to rape someone. I believe that either someone is inclined towards that or they are not, and me saying "don't do it" wouldn't make one bit of difference. I would hope that in the course of his lifetime it is obvious to him that you respect another's body, that you never force someone to do something they are not comfortable with, and that he hasn't had some void in his life that needs to be fulfilled by exerting control and power over other human beings. Dh is a very gentle man, and very respectful towards me, and hopefully that will go a long way towards modeling appropriate behavior for our children.

I do assume that there will be conversations about women, dating, sex, and all the rest, so it's very possible that rape and prostitutes will be a part of that conversation. But again, that is part of the natural, organic process of an evolving discussion.

[kblackstone444]

First of all, I've taught my son since he was about a year old that, "No means no."

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I don't plan on telling my child not to rape someone. I believe that either someone is inclined towards that or they are not, and me saying "don't do it" wouldn't make one bit of difference. I would hope that in the course of his lifetime it is obvious to him that you respect another's body, that you never force someone to do something they are not comfortable with, and that he hasn't had some void in his life that needs to be fulfilled by exerting control and power over other human beings. Dh is a very gentle man, and very respectful towards me, and hopefully that will go a long way towards modeling appropriate behavior for our children.

I agree with that, but I would also like to add that, when my son asked about sex, my Hubby included in the sex talk about how "just like you should never use your hands or feet to hurt someone, you should never use your penis to hurt anyone, either."

[mamajake]

Originally Posted by Belleweather

Firstly, I wouldn't teach "no means no". I don't think it gives people an accurate picture of the sort of complicated issues that go on with people (not even teenagers, adults too!) who are trying to negotiate sexuality. I DO really like "No means no and maybe means no and silence means no. Only yes means yes." Hey, it's got a few more syllables, but as a guideline for a teenage boy whose willy is leading him one way and brain is (hopefully) leading him another, I think it's more useful. And it's the rules I wish people would have played with when I was a teenager and an adolescent.

: I think I might put that up on the fridge.

[mamajake]

Some of this comes organically but then one day your ten year old son comes up to you and says, "Mommy, what it rape?" and answering (as I did trying not to freak out) "It is forcing someone to have sexual intercourse" just is not good enough.

Raising people who won't become rapists is one thing.

Raising people who are as safe as possible from rapists is another thing.

Explaining to our children what rape is, what it does to people, why people do it, is something else entirely. Someone in my family was raped and it changed her life forever in ways I had to explain to my boys. I think I failed. I started with the technical aspect of forcing intercourse but it became immediately very emotionally charged for all of us. We talked about it in bits and pieces over time and related it back to all the other discussions we have had about the integrity of their own bodies and our version of "good touch, bad touch." But at its core, rape is incomprehensibly horrible. One thing I did succeed in was not making my sons feel some additional responsibility because they are male. Some day they will know that almost all rapists are men, but as young adolescents they don't need to know that.

I had only one way to gauge what they had learned since the vibe I got from them was mostly overwhelming discomfort. The discussion arose because the rapist in my family had died (yes, both perpetrator and victim are family members) and my sweet gentle ten year old very quietly said, "I'm glad he's dead."

[kblackstone444]

Originally Posted by mamajake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belleweather
Firstly, I wouldn't teach "no means no". I don't think it gives people an accurate picture of the sort of complicated issues that go on with people (not even teenagers, adults too!) who are trying to negotiate sexuality. I DO really like "No means no and maybe means no and silence means no. Only yes means yes." Hey, it's got a few more syllables, but as a guideline for a teenage boy whose willy is leading him one way and brain is (hopefully) leading him another, I think it's more useful. And it's the rules I wish people would have played with when I was a teenager and an adolescent.

: I think I might put that up on the fridge.

Good point. I didn't see that post before.

[Ruthla]

I've discussed the issues of rape, child molestation, prostitution, marital infedelity, and pornography with my daughters. I forget if the topics first came up from news stories or from characters in a book, but we've discussed these issues many times. It all fits into a discussion of healthy sexuality, ie "this isnt' healthy because XYZ" or" this can be healthy in this situation or unhealthy in that situation."

I plan to do the same with DS when he gets old enough to ask these kinds of questions.

For all of us, we focus on "respectful touching." This applies to snuggling, nursing, tickling, playing, rough housing, etc, and eventuallly will apply to sexual relationships as well. The basic rule is "you both/all have to want the touch. If anybody says no, then you need to stop." You don't continue to tickle your sister when she's told you not to, even if she is laughing. The laughter is instinctive and NOT a sign that she's having fun.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I haven't read the replies. And my oldest is only 6yo, so I am not speaking from experience, either.

However, my first reaction when reading your post was that I don't think that you need to specifically sit down and talk with your child about these things. I do think that it is an organic experience, and that we teach our children about respecting their bodies, respecting others, being sensitive, respecting personal boundaries, and keeping themselves safe from day one.

For instance, my son loves to slap my butt playfully. In the past when I have asked him to stop, he would keep doing it. I finally turned to him and said in no unclear manner: "This is my body, and I am telling you to stop." He got it. He has friends who don't like to be hugged. He learned that by running up to give them a hug and having them turn away. Our "rule" about aggressive/physical play is to make sure that the other person is okay with it, and to immediately stop as soon as they aren't.

We treat his body with care and respect. We talk about what is healthy and what isn't. I assume one day STDs will be a part of that conversation, which would naturally include having unprotected sex, as well as having a sexual partner who you know well enough to have had a dialogue about their past. (This is the part that bothers me about prostitutes - not the money for sex issue, but the possible spread of diseases and general dangers.) We (hopefully) teach our children to be true to themselves, and to make decisions that feel right to them, not that make them popular or bend to peer pressure. I would think that these conversations would be similar to or include discussions about druge use.

I can't believe I'm about to quote Madonna here, but I heard her say something one time that made a lot of sense to me. She was on Oprah (years ago, when her daughter was first born). Oprah asked her something along the lines of "What will you teach your daughter about men?" And Madonna said something along the lines of "I don't need to teach her about men. I need to teach her to respect herself, to be true to herself, to make good decisions, and to be a strong woman." That's kind of how I feel about it.

I don't plan on telling my child not to rape someone. I believe that either someone is inclined towards that or they are not, and me saying "don't do it" wouldn't make one bit of difference. I would hope that in the course of his lifetime it is obvious to him that you respect another's body, that you never force someone to do something they are not comfortable with, and that he hasn't had some void in his life that needs to be fulfilled by exerting control and power over other human beings. Dh is a very gentle man, and very respectful towards me, and hopefully that will go a long way towards modeling appropriate behavior for our children.

I do assume that there will be conversations about women, dating, sex, and all the rest, so it's very possible that rape and prostitutes will be a part of that conversation. But again, that is part of the natural, organic process of an evolving discussion.

Oceanbaby, you have put into words the way I feel about the subject.
Thank you for voicing my thoughts so clearly.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by mamajake

Explaining to our children what rape is, what it does to people, why people do it, is something else entirely. ... and related it back to all the other discussions we have had about the integrity of their own bodies and our version of "good touch, bad touch." But at its core, rape is incomprehensibly horrible. I had only one way to gauge what they had learned since the vibe I got from them was mostly overwhelming discomfort. The discussion arose because the rapist in my family had died (yes, both perpetrator and victim are family members) and my sweet gentle ten year old very quietly said, "I'm glad he's dead."

Yes, I think this is important to not only define what rape is, but to also delve into the repercussions felt by the victim after the fact.
It is so important for kids to know that aspect of rape, to understand it's not just a solitary, confined moment in time, that the emotional/pyschological effects last long after.

By what your 10 yr old son commented at the end of your post, shows that you did a great job of explaining the complexities of this topic.

My 10 yr old stepson asked me not so long ago what rape was.
I have talked with him about it on several occassions (because he brings it up). I covered things much the same way you seem to have.

[julie128]

I'm so glad you're thinking about this! When I took sex ed at school, we watched a video that showed an example of date rape. At the end of the video, the teacher (a man) asked the class, What did the girl do wrong? (going off with the boy, drinking, etc) Later, it occured to me that what he should have asked was to ask what the BOY had done wrong. This teacher's discussion made rape the fault of the girl, not the boy. Boys need to be taught not to rape girls.

You know that saying, Boys will be boys? The full saying is actually, Boys will be boys, so girls must be wary. Boys have society's permission (encouragement?) to rape girls. This will not change until we teach our sons that sex should never be forced upon anyone.

Adding: Okay, I read the replies this time. I agree with the people who are saying that it's more than teaching 'no means no' because most of the communication during sex is non-verbal. What if she (or substitute 'he' as appropriate) stops doing what she had been doing? What if she starts crying (some people cry after orgasm, but that's different)? What if she makes an excuse that seems lame to you? What if she just seems hesitant? You don't push; you let it go. Maybe she just wants to keep kissing. Maybe she wants to have clothing off, but not have intercourse. You can back off and ask her for clarification. You would want the same, wouldn't you?