S/O: How early is it CLW? - Page 3

[veggiemomma]

Mt dd self weaned at 14 months. Actually, I was NOT ready for her to completely wean, but she decided otherwise. I would offer, she would push me away and say "No, I dunt" It got to be where I was almost forcing her to nurse, which was nearly as bad as forcing her to wean. So, I let her take control. After about two weeks, she just never even asked to nurse again.:

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

If the question is "is it child led weaning" then the criteria that matters is whether or not the weaning was initiated by the child.

I totally see where you are coming from. My argument is that if a child stops nursing because he/she prefers pacifiers (which don't have milk), that is considered an interference in clw. So, the requirement for nursing, and thus clw, is not milk. A child that continues to nurse past, say 5, even though Mama has no milk is allowed to clw, and he/she decides when to stop, at say, 6. A child, age 5, whose mother's milk dries up but decides to wean, is clw as well, right? Its just that this child didn't see the purpose in nursing if there was no milk.

Why doesn't the same theory hold true with a 23 month old, or an 18 month old? Is it because a child under age 24 months is said to still *need* breastmilk nutritionally? I absolutely believe that, but they can also thrive without it (not that there aren't risks and drawbacks). Just wanting to define.

[BlueStateMama]

DS "self-weaned" when I was pg at 20 months, but that doesn't really count, I changed the milk supply/taste etc. I kept offering and he'd refuse (ie pull my shirt down and turn away. Then again, he was *never* a comfort nurser - just a 5 minute, extract the milk and go kid.

From what I've seen of DD, I think once they hit 2, nursing becomes crucial. I joke that you have a window between 18 months to 2 years, and then you're "stuck" until they're over 3. DD is so attached to "measies" (at just over 2) and so very, well...TWO that I can't see her giving it up until she hits 3 or so.

[sunnysideup]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

I totally see where you are coming from. My argument is that if a child stops nursing because he/she prefers pacifiers (which don't have milk), that is considered an interference in clw. So, the requirement for nursing, and thus clw, is not milk. A child that continues to nurse past, say 5, even though Mama has no milk is allowed to clw, and he/she decides when to stop, at say, 6. A child, age 5, whose mother's milk dries up but decides to wean, is clw as well, right? Its just that this child didn't see the purpose in nursing if there was no milk.

Why doesn't the same theory hold true with a 23 month old, or an 18 month old? Is it because a child under age 24 months is said to still *need* breastmilk nutritionally? I absolutely believe that, but they can also thrive without it (not that there aren't risks and drawbacks). Just wanting to define.

A mother's milk supply will naturally decrease over time. Normally, this will happen over the years, as a child nurses less and less. It's part of the natural weaning process. There is less milk because the child is weaning.

The same is not true when the milk supply decreases due to pregnancy. A toddler can be nursing frequently, and pregnancy can still cause a drop in supply.

[mamazee]

My daughter didn't really self-wean because I night weaned her at around 2 years. I didn't push it, and never intended to, but she night weaned very easily - without a tear - so I figured all was well. But, about three months later, she didn't want to nurse at all. So she weaned herself, but I'm quite sure she would have kept going if I wouldn't have night weaned her. Not true CLW.

So the question is, when is it self-weaning and when is there outside influence?

I really think without any outside influence at all, most kids would probably nurse till at least three years, but we influence in different ways - some big and some small - and they add up. Some of the influences are probably unintentional, and some are probably even out of our control, but they are all outside things that help influence a child to stop nursing. This is just my feeling on the matter, so I don't have any way to prove it or back it up, but that's my opinion.

[Starflower]

Hmm. Interesting conversation here. I can definitely see the difference between "self-weaning" with influences and CLW.

I was also interested to read about the baby who pushed off the breast after getting the milk. My DD is definitely a "sucky" baby - well, now she's over 4 years old and she still nurses frequently. Sometimes, I think she's like a vacuum cleaner. And she sucks her thumb as well.

I think my DH would kind of like to see us slow down the nursing or maybe even wean her, but she has incredibly high sucking needs, so I don't really consider this even an option. At this point, I think anything other than CLW would be traumatic for her. (Though I do limit her once in awhile if I am in a bad mood and need to chill out first - I don't want to nurse angry.)

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by mamazee

I really think without any outside influence at all, most kids would probably nurse till at least three years, but we influence in different ways - some big and some small - and they add up. Some of the influences are probably unintentional, and some are probably even out of our control, but they are all outside things that help influence a child to stop nursing. This is just my feeling on the matter, so I don't have any way to prove it or back it up, but that's my opinion.

But are there ever truly instances where there aren't those influences? Are there mothers who never limit? Is this natural? I guess I just don't see how setting limits isn't still child-led...I get the point, but I don't see how its possible or practical. Of course, I work, so for me its even harder, but it seems that a child who truly has a need to suck wouldn't wean even if there weren't milk, regardless of the reason. A child with a need to suck will suck a milkless thumb, a milkless pacifier, and therefore a milkless breast (if the other interferences are absent).

Do true CLW mamas nurse a 3 yo in the grocery store line? Would setting the limit of waiting until we got to the car be an interference in CLW?

[alegna]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

Do true CLW mamas nurse a 3 yo in the grocery store line? Would setting the limit of waiting until we got to the car be an interference in CLW?

I don't know if I'm a "true CLW mama" but I've nursed a 2.5 yr old in the grocery store line and I won't be shocked if I nurse a 3 yr old there too.

-Angela

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

But are there ever truly instances where there aren't those influences? Are there mothers who never limit? Is this natural? I guess I just don't see how setting limits isn't still child-led...I get the point, but I don't see how its possible or practical. Of course, I work, so for me its even harder, but it seems that a child who truly has a need to suck wouldn't wean even if there weren't milk, regardless of the reason. A child with a need to suck will suck a milkless thumb, a milkless pacifier, and therefore a milkless breast (if the other interferences are absent).

Do true CLW mamas nurse a 3 yo in the grocery store line? Would setting the limit of waiting until we got to the car be an interference in CLW?

What I mean is that there is a continuum between parent-led and child-led, and a lot of people probably fall somewhere between. True CLW is hard to accomplish given the realities of life. We can try make it as child-led as possible by avoiding influences where we can, if we choose to. I didn't choose to, obviously, since I night weaned, but I recognize what a huge difference that made to our daytime nursing relationship. I'm sure my daughter wouldn't have weaned if I hadn't night weaned, even though without that information it would look like it was child-led as she specifically said she wasn't interested anymore.

My goal with the next child will be to get closer to the CL side of that continuum. I'll avoid the influences where I recognize them.

[pfamilygal]

My youngest CLW at 15.5 months. He was offered the boob constantly. Never had limits set, even at night. And he didn't start solids until 11 months. Of course, I was almost 8 months pregnant when he weaned. I'm sort of hoping he'll start wanting to nurse again if this baby EVER gets here.

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by alegna

I don't know if I'm a "true CLW mama" but I've nursed a 2.5 yr old in the grocery store line and I won't be shocked if I nurse a 3 yr old there too.

-Angela

So, does that mean you don't set any limits on nursing?

Because, while I think we ought to be able to feel comfortable whipping it out anywhere, I just don't, but I also don't want to prevent the next one from nursing until he is done. I already know of several things I will do differently from the start...

Originally Posted by mamazee

My goal with the next child will be to get closer to the CL side of that continuum. I'll avoid the influences where I recognize them.

That is my goal as well! And why I am being such a PITA!

[alegna]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

So, does that mean you don't set any limits on nursing?

It depends what you mean by limits. I do sometimes say, not now honey, mom's in the middle of _____. I do NOT feel comfortable saying that you're not allowed to nurse in public- period.

-Angela

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by alegna

It depends what you mean by limits. I do sometimes say, not now honey, mom's in the middle of _____. I do NOT feel comfortable saying that you're not allowed to nurse in public- period.

-Angela

Well, we never had a rule about NIP'ing, but usually in the grocery store line I have a cart full (we shop once every 2 weeks, becuase we live so remotely) and I'm busy...and it would be awkward to stop.

And NIP'ing is uncomfortable for me for personal reasons...which are stupid and societal and I am working on overcoming it. I certainly haven't told dd she couldn't nurse because we were in public...it just never happened much (she was always a very distracted nurser and we had to have absolute quiet to nurse, most of the time anyway).

So, setting limits/distracting to finish a job, isn't against CLW philosophy?

[BlueStateMama]

forestrymom, I NIP my toddler and there's no WAY I'd drop everything to nurse in the check-out line at the grocery store. To me, everything is about balancing family wants and needs - and I have a place in that balacing act too- not just my kids. I have no problem telling my 2 year old that we can have "measies" when we get home, that we're doing something else at that moment.

There's a middle ground. I don't consider it MLW, I consider the nursing relationship to be a 2-way street after a certain point. I can't articulate exactly when that is, but I know that my 2 year old, who's had her sippy of water, a slice of cheese from the deli and a cookie from the bakery, can wait 15 minutes to nurse.

[sunnysideup]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

A child with a need to suck will suck a milkless thumb, a milkless pacifier, and therefore a milkless breast (if the other interferences are absent).

But, there is more to nursing than just the sucking. So, some won't suck a milkless breast--that doesn't necessarily mean they were ready to be done nursing--KWIM?

Originally Posted by forestrymom

Do true CLW mamas nurse a 3 yo in the grocery store line? Would setting the limit of waiting until we got to the car be an interference in CLW?

I do not think that setting reasonable limits is counter to CLW. A 3yo could certainly wait until the shopping is done to nurse, and it's not going to jeopardize the nursing relationship at all (although, no 3yo I have known would want to nurse in the grocery store unless they were injured, and in that case maybe mom wants to go ahead and nurse the child--but I digress

[CaraboosMama]

Originally Posted by alegna

It is frankly absurd to say that a baby self weaned to formula and bottles.

-Angela

ITA! I've never understood why people refer to moving from breat to bottle as "weaning" at all! Not judging - I know that there are many reasons people might choose to do that - but it is not CLW if the child in question still needs milk or a milk sub as her/his main source of nutrition.

I voted 19 - 24 as the earliest to CLW. I don't think it's a horrible thing to MLW at around that age, but besides the benefits of breast milk, it is my understanding that the need to suck doesn't begin to fade until this time either.

Obviously, there is a WIDE range of normal...but the self-weaners at 6 mths etc seem ridiculous to me.

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

I do not think that setting reasonable limits is counter to CLW. A 3yo could certainly wait until the shopping is done to nurse, and it's not going to jeopardize the nursing relationship at all (although, no 3yo I have known would want to nurse in the grocery store unless they were injured, and in that case maybe mom wants to go ahead and nurse the child--but I digress

My dd wouldn't nurse anywhere public at all after about 4 months. It would have been much easier if she had. And I would never have denied it to her injured, ever, no matter what my comfort level was. I'm just really trying to learn as much as I can about hinderences to CLW for the next one, after the mistakes we made with dd (mostly pacifiers, but some other things as well).

Anyway...

[Gaea]

Originally Posted by forestrymom

My dd wouldn't nurse anywhere public at all after about 4 months. It would have been much easier if she had. And I would never have denied it to her injured, ever, no matter what my comfort level was. I'm just really trying to learn as much as I can about hinderences to CLW for the next one, after the mistakes we made with dd (mostly pacifiers, but some other things as well).

Anyway...

My DS wouldn´t nurse in public either from about 3 months to about 10 months. I nursed him only when he was put to sleep. Now (11 months) that has changed, he nurses all the time and he can´t see me topless and not nurse. When we are in the shower, he is all over me!

I know several kids who CLW at 6 months, 8 months, 10 months...eh...I don´t think so!

[sadkitty]

I voted for 19-24 months as the EARLIEST I would consider it child-led. I think the median is more like 3.5-4 years.

Originally Posted by mamazee

So the question is, when is it self-weaning and when is there outside influence?

I really think without any outside influence at all, most kids would probably nurse till at least three years, but we influence in different ways - some big and some small - and they add up. Some of the influences are probably unintentional, and some are probably even out of our control, but they are all outside things that help influence a child to stop nursing. This is just my feeling on the matter, so I don't have any way to prove it or back it up, but that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by forestrymom

But are there ever truly instances where there aren't those influences? Are there mothers who never limit? Is this natural? I guess I just don't see how setting limits isn't still child-led...I get the point, but I don't see how its possible or practical. Of course, I work, so for me its even harder, but it seems that a child who truly has a need to suck wouldn't wean even if there weren't milk, regardless of the reason. A child with a need to suck will suck a milkless thumb, a milkless pacifier, and therefore a milkless breast (if the other interferences are absent).

My DD kind of self weaned at 40 months. It was kind of sad. She forgot to nurse on Halloween and when she tried to the next day, she couldn't figure out how to latch on. her mouth just wouldn't work right. She wasn't terribly sad and we tried a few more times, but she just couldn't do it.

I didn't have the internet resources I do now, and had NO CLUE that she was severly tongue tied until a dentict told us when she was 7!(her tongue is almost forked like a snakes). Women in my family have soley breastfed without issue for generations, so I had no clue there was a real problem. I didn't know she wasn't supposed to latch on with her teeth for 2.5 years. I had no clue that was why she couldn't figure it out after one day. She was totally still needing to suck and to this day still sucks on her fingers and chews on random things (let's hope she never gets hold of a cigarrette.

There was no real outside influence . It was a weird sort of weaning. I'm not sure how I would label it.

[mammal_mama]

I voted in the 4 years+ category -- but it's not that I was trying to set a minimum age for child-led weaning, or to discount anyone else's experience. In my personal experience, around 4 years or older seems to be about the time when children become less interested in breastfeeding -- IF they've been used to having pretty much free access to the breast.

I think if children get used to being told "No" fairly often when they want to nurse, but have free access to a bottle, sippy-cup, or pacifier -- it just makes sense that they might choose to attach to the thing they can always have.

I have friends who consider that their children self-weaned at younger ages, and of course I don't argue with them -- but I'm aware that they've either scheduled feedings, supplemented with bottles, or were otherwise unavailable for nursing-on-cue.

IME, asking my 2yo to wait a moment while I pee, or offering her a drink in a sippy cup on a morning when I really need to get up and dressed, absolutely DOES NOT bring on weaning or a nursing-strike. I haven't found our nursing relationship to be that precarious.

When my babies were born, I kept them close, carrying them in my arms or in a sling, and sleeping with them at night. I latched them on right away when they started "rooting." As they've grown into toddlerhood and childhood, it's just been natural to move into more of a give-and-take relationship --

to talk about my need to get dressed, or if I'm tired, to move to a comfortable chair, or the bed, rather than just picking my child up and latching her on the exact second she asks -- though I do believe in latching younger (pre-toddler) babies on the moment they show cues of wanting to suck.

I truly haven't found this reciprocity to be associated with early weaning.