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"I'm right/You're wrong." Says who? - Page 3

post #41 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~ View Post
I'm not going to get into a debate here, but Christianity doesn't believe in a Christian messiah. There is a Jewish messiah in the Tanakh and that's who they believe Jesus is. That doesn't mean he's the messiah of religious Judaism, but he (in that belief) is the Messiah prophesied in Judaism to the ethnically Hebrew figures in the Tankakh. I don't think anyone actually gets confused and thinks Jews accept him. It's obvious.
I can't imagine this being put any more clearly. No, nobody thinks present-day Jews believe in Jesus Christ. Nobody is even suggesting that.
However, there never was a "Messiah to the Christians." Who were these Christians that Jesus supposedly preached to and was accepted by? There were no Christians at the time. Jesus lived in Judea, was Jewish, and was accepted by a certain number of first-century Jews as their Messiah. Others did not believe he was the Messiah. This was a division between one group of Jews and another. Present-day Christians are followers of one camp, present-day Jews are followers of the other, but they both share some common history, beliefs, scriptures, and terminology. It's not reasonable for one of those factions to tell the other they're not allowed to use any language that refers to the original faith.
post #42 of 177
Thread Starter 
How can you say that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Judaism when he wasn't? The "proofs" taken from the Jewish texts are all mistranslations based on Christian theology.

Don't you see that?

The mistranslations themselves are due to the Christian theology overlaid on the text.

So how can you say that Jesus is "prophesied" in Judaism when it's only with Christian mistakes in translation and meaning that you can read the prophecies that way?


Christianity prophesized him. Mazal tov. Leave us out of it.











mamabadger, I think that saying "there never was a messiah to the Christians" and saying that "there were no christians for him to be messiah to at the time" is being deliberately obtuse. He is the Christian messiah. He is accepted by Christians as their messiah.

The only reason IMO that Christians want to call him "the Jewish messiah" is to mislead Jews into conversion. That may not be your purpose personally, but it is very definitely part of the strategy of its use. See my links. Jews4Jesus stopped fooling anyone with their half-baked misuse of Jewish ritual objects, so now the Artscroll siddur (prayerbook) is waved around as a banner of "legitimacy."


He preached to Jews. Is that your point? Fine. So did lots of rabbis, famous and not. That didn't make them "messiah" either. Preaching to Jews is not a requirement for the Mashiakh.







It's Christian theology that says Jesus was "sent for the Jews." It's Christian. It's yours. Not mine.







Jane'max, you know very well that thousands of Jews were also once fervently believing communists, which was also started by a Jew, and that didn't make communism part of Jewish theology either.
post #43 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamagotchi View Post
What was your point that you say was missed? There are plenty of Jews who have all kinds of non-Jewish beliefs. Many Jews are atheists, others practice Buddhism, paganism, Christianity, etc. Non-practicing Jews are still Jews (can't escape that!) but this doesn't make their beliefs part of Judaism.
And when did I say that my beliefs are part of Judaism?
The whole argument here is WELL, Jews did not believe in Jesus, so THEREFORE HE IS NOT A JEWISH MESSIAH. And I'm saying that I and many others for one did, so their opinion doesn't count?
What is it has to do with the fact that I'm not practicing Jew?
post #44 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post
And if you are ethnically Jewish, then you are Ethnically Jewish. If you believe Jesus to be the messiahand follow his teachings, you are a Christian who is ethnically Jewish (if you are).
I got that, thanks.
post #45 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
How can you say that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Judaism when he wasn't? The "proofs" taken from the Jewish texts are all mistranslations based on Christian theology.

Don't you see that?

The mistranslations themselves are due to the Christian theology overlaid on the text.

So how can you say that Jesus is "prophesied" in Judaism when it's only with Christian mistakes in translation and meaning that you can read the prophecies that way?


Christianity prophesized him. Mazal tov. Leave us out of it.











mamabadger, I think that saying "there never was a messiah to the Christians" and saying that "there were no christians for him to be messiah to at the time" is being deliberately obtuse. He is the Christian messiah. He is accepted by Christians as their messiah.

The only reason IMO that Christians want to call him "the Jewish messiah" is to mislead Jews into conversion. That may not be your purpose personally, but it is very definitely part of the strategy of its use. See my links. Jews4Jesus stopped fooling anyone with their half-baked misuse of Jewish ritual objects, so now the Artscroll siddur (prayerbook) is waved around as a banner of "legitimacy."


He preached to Jews. Is that your point? Fine. So did lots of rabbis, famous and not. That didn't make them "messiah" either. Preaching to Jews is not a requirement for the Mashiakh.







It's Christian theology that says Jesus was "sent for the Jews." It's Christian. It's yours. Not mine.







Jane'max, you know very well that thousands of Jews were also once fervently believing communists, which was also started by a Jew, and that didn't make communism part of Jewish theology either.

I don't think this thread is about whether or not Jesus fulfilled his messianic duties, because I'm not getting involved in that mess.

I thought that this thread is how dare Christians or other people or Jews like me proclaim that He is a Jewish Messiah? Apparently it insulting to you and other moms. Well, for one, you cannot tell me or a Christian on how to believe in Jesus since you are not me and you are not a Christian. So therefore if that what we or Christians believe, it's within their right.

Do you give a flying fly that when you passionately proclaim that Jesus is not a Jewish Messiah it's insulting to me? OBVIOUSLY NOT. So why do I have to tip toe with anybody here? I just don't feel like it anymore.
post #46 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
How can you say that Jesus was the messiah prophesied in Judaism when he wasn't? The "proofs" taken from the Jewish texts are all mistranslations based on Christian theology.

Don't you see that?

The mistranslations themselves are due to the Christian theology overlaid on the text.

So how can you say that Jesus is "prophesied" in Judaism when it's only with Christian mistakes in translation and meaning that you can read the prophecies that way?
Can you give me further explanation on this (or a link)? I'm interested in learning what was mistranslated. PM me if you'd rather.

However, to me, as a non-literal Bible reader, it doesn't matter to my faith if the criteria spelled out in the Hebrew Bible is not literally met by Jesus. I think that's kind of the point. The Gospel writers saw Jesus as the promised Messiah and included (or added) details in their accounts to underscore this. It's difficult to read to appreciate the full meaning of the Gospels without referring back to the Hebrew Bible.
post #47 of 177
This discussion is not about the validity of christianity or not. We're not debating christian theology.

What is being discussed is that when someone says Jesus was a "Jewish Messiah" it is completely insulting to practicing Jews. (And that means Jews who follow rabbinic Torah, not the NT). So it's fine for a Christian or a Messianist to say "I believe that Jesus was the Messiah" and for a Jew to say "Jesus is not our Messiah" - but for someone who is not a practicing Jew to TELL practicing Jews that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" is completely insulting.

:
post #48 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
And when did I say that my beliefs are part of Judaism?
The whole argument here is WELL, Jews did not believe in Jesus, so THEREFORE HE IS NOT A JEWISH MESSIAH. And I'm saying that I and many others for one did, so their opinion doesn't count?
What is it has to do with the fact that I'm not practicing Jew?
Just because some Jews believed it, doesn't make it a Jewish belief. If I and all my friends decide to go believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's still not Jewish. The idea that Jesus was the Jewish messiah was and has been rejected. We don't have a Pope to decide what is and isn't Jewish theology, but there has never been a major Jewish thinker or mainstream Jewish opinion that accepts Jesus. Therefore, it's not a Jewish belief; it's just a belief that some (ethnic) Jews have. Jewish theology is not decided by individuals.

Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah can do so, but they can't expect other Jews to accept that as a legitimate Jewish belief--any more than I can make the Flying Spaghetti Monster Jewish. You can't square the circle. Belief in Jesus as the Messiah was the original dividing line between Jews and Christians.
post #49 of 177
I also don't understand why Christians (including Jews who have become Christians) just believe in their messiah and leave Jews, Judaism, and "Jewish" out of it altogether.
post #50 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguazul View Post
I also don't understand why Christians (including Jews who have become Christians) just believe in their messiah and leave Jews, Judaism, and "Jewish" out of it altogether.
Because like it or not, it's a fundamental part of orthodox Christian theology.
The idea that Jews are "damned" or deserve to be mistreated is not (although I acknowledge the sad history and continuation of such things, and I deplore them, and so does my entire Church).
post #51 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccohenou View Post
Because like it or not, it's a fundamental part of orthodox Christian theology.
But we're not debating Christian theology. We just are extremely insulted and taken-aback when someone injects "Jewish" into anything Christian (which means, anything that has to do with Jesus). So to say that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" is just wrong. He's the Christian Messiah, which is fine, and no one is arguing with. Just don't call that Judaism. Anything that involves Jesus is simply not Judaism.
post #52 of 177
I understand that, according to Christian theology, Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible.

However, this is different from saying Jesus was "the Jewish Messiah" or "the Messiah to the Jews." I don't understand why Christians would even want to use phrases like these. They imply that Jesus was meant to be the Messiah only for the Jews and not for everyone else. Isn't the whole point that Jesus is supposed to be a universal Messiah? Wouldn't it be a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah"?
post #53 of 177
But most Christians do NOT refer to Jesus as "the Jewish Messiah". They leave the "J" word out. SO I really don't see what everyone's going on about.

Carry on, I'm off to work.
post #54 of 177
So since most Christians seem to get along perfectly fine without calling him the "Jewish Messiah", why is it that some insist on using Jewish terminology to describe their own beliefs? To bolster their own sense of legitimacy?
post #55 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
But we're not debating Christian theology. We just are extremely insulted and taken-aback when someone injects "Jewish" into anything Christian (which means, anything that has to do with Jesus). So to say that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" is just wrong. He's the Christian Messiah, which is fine, and no one is arguing with. Just don't call that Judaism. Anything that involves Jesus is simply not Judaism.
:
I am just observing, but this makes the point perfectly clear.
post #56 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamagotchi View Post
I understand that, according to Christian theology, Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible.

However, this is different from saying Jesus was "the Jewish Messiah" or "the Messiah to the Jews." I don't understand why Christians would even want to use phrases like these. They imply that Jesus was meant to be the Messiah only for the Jews and not for everyone else. Isn't the whole point that Jesus is supposed to be a universal Messiah? Wouldn't it be a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah"?
So do you think it is not offensive for Christians to say that we believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesized in the Hebrew Bible? To answer your question about wheter it's a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah," I think the answer is "no." As I've stated above, to do so is to lose some of the richness of this part of our belief. It's kind of a meaningless title without the prophesies in the Hebrew Bible behind it.

I'm uncomfortable with the phrase "Messiah to the Jews," too, because I think those who were called to follow Jesus as the Messiah were simply called to a different path.
post #57 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguazul View Post
So since most Christians seem to get along perfectly fine without calling him the "Jewish Messiah", why is it that some insist on using Jewish terminology to describe their own beliefs? To bolster their own sense of legitimacy?
Like what terminology, besides massiah? (Well maybe that answers your question, that if I'm using Jewish terminology I don't even know that I'm doing it. )
post #58 of 177
"Messiah" doesn't exist outside the context of Judaism, first century or otherwise. It's from an Aramaic word and refers to a Jewish theological concept. Even if you don't say "Jewish Messiah" you're referencing a Jewish concept when you say the word "Messiah."

I guess if that bothers people, it bothers them, but the horse is kind of out of the barn now.

ETA: Once again I think this whole argument is ridiculous. Christians aren't going to change their entire 2000 year old doctrine because someone on MDC gets pissy about the wording. Arguing over beliefs like this baffles me.
post #59 of 177
Oh come on. Clearly this is something where tact is called for and words really matter. I am foolish enough to take a stab at restating some of what has appeared in the thread:

Christianity has Jewish roots. In mainstream, normative, rabbinic Judaism, it is theologically impossible that Jesus could be the messiah. (We can all take turns readumbrating the reasons for that tactfully if anyone is interested.)

In Christianity, for a variety of theological reasons, it's important that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. Reclaiming the Jewishness of Jesus has been important to many Christians as part of throwing off a centuries-old heritage of anti-Judaism.

(Still, it's not so helpful in interfaith dialogue. I'm just saying.)

There are Jews who believe in a syncretistic blend of Jewish and Christian theology. They may not find it inconsistent with their Jewish beliefs that Jesus is the messiah. Though such beliefs are consistent with mainstream Christianity, they are not consistent with mainstream Judaism.

What do I believe? I believe I'll have a cup of tea.
post #60 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
But most Christians do NOT refer to Jesus as "the Jewish Messiah". They leave the "J" word out. SO I really don't see what everyone's going on about.
Yeah, I don't know any Christians who walk around saying Jesus was "the Jewish Messiah." Most just refer to Him as "the Messiah."

I think everyone gets that most practicing Jews don't like the fact that Christians think Jesus did fulfill the Hebrew prophecies. I don't like the fact that Muslims reduce Jesus to a mere prophet, but it's pointless for me to get irate about it every time a Muslim here claims some kind of kinship with Christianity while rejecting a basic tenet of it. So I get the annoyance many Jews have at Christians claiming kinship with Judaism while rejecting a basic tenet of it. But I don't think we're going to change each others minds, and I find it intellectually dishonest and insulting to everyone to try to make Christians here pretend that we don't believe something that's a major foundation of our religious beliefs. Jesus was at least an ethnic Jew, born to a Jewish mother, raised an obedient Jew, who was followed by Jews who believed Him to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. I get that practicing Jews disagree completely. I get that they don't like that. But that doesn't change the fact that, no matter how wrong the Jews believe we are, that's what Christians believe. I'm a gentile, I don't have the benefit of a Jewish upbringing and knowledge of the Torah that would allow me to understand the historical and Christian Jesus in a Jewish manner, and I think it's silly to expect me to. I won't argue with Jews about it, because I know we're coming from two completely different places and understandings, but I'm not going to lie and pretend I don't believe things that I do.

They imply that Jesus was meant to be the Messiah only for the Jews and not for everyone else. Isn't the whole point that Jesus is supposed to be a universal Messiah? Wouldn't it be a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah"?

The universality of Jesus would apply to Jews too, though, which is obviously a very insulting insinuation to them.
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