Any radical unschoolers here? - Page 9

[monkey's mom]

I don't know why Crunchy unschoolers would be any less RU than conservative Republican unschoolers or Jewish unschoolers.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't know why Crunchy unschoolers would be any less RU than conservative Republican unschoolers or Jewish unschoolers.

I'm not sure where this question comes from in this thread, but maybe an an example?

You keep a Kosher home, or you don't own a dog because it's salvia is haram, but your child wants you to steam some lobster, or you child wants a lab puppy.

There really isn't much room for negotiation here. The 'values are imposed'.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by UUMom

People are confusing RU with CU. No matter, we disagree, and that's really ok.

"There actually is another path.

But, the Crunchy Unschoolers are radically unschooling, I believe anyone would agree because they are not imposing their values on their children, while choosing and modeling their own values.


Pat "

So basically this says to me, you dance around, being fundamentally dishonest, pretending to simply 'share' with the child your values, but saying you're not really 'imposing'. The child wants the Bratz, and you try not to impose your belief about child slavery in China, and you try not to impose your need to not clutter or spend your money on something you consider a waste. Yet, you are letting your child freely choose whether or not she wants the bratz doll.? No. You can do guilt and shame, of course "I believe that children in China are being exploited so this toy can be avilable, but if you don't share that belief, get the toy".

That's manipulation, no matter how you try to say it isn't. At least be honest about what you're doing.

*Where* are you getting that this is happening? I thought "Crunchy Unschoolers" was the name of a list for *Radically Unschooling* parents who are into environmental issues, etc, and wanted to discuss how to share those values w/ their kid *without* imposing those values.

I think you're doing quite a bit of assuming here. Words like "dance around" "pretend" "manipulation"....and yet in this thread people have posted the ways in which they have shared their values with a child without *imposing* those values.

Let me ask this more simply....do you think the only way a "Crunchy Unschooler" can share their values w/ their child is by imposing them, and that using shame/guilt is inherent in this? Because thats what you seem to be saying.


Katherine

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I'm not sure where this question comes from in this thread, but maybe an an example?

I'm hearing you say that the Crunchy Unschooling yahoo group is not RU, b/c there is no way for the parents to not impose their crunchy values on their children. Am I understanding?

And I'm wondering why "crunchy" values would be any different than any other values.

Originally Posted by UUMom

You keep a Kosher home, or you don't own a dog because it's salvia is haram, but your child wants you to steam some lobster, or you child wants a lab puppy.

There really isn't much room for negotiation here. The 'values are imposed'.

First of all, just because the parent isn't willing to do something that goes against their values does not mean that they are "imposing" their values.

I'm not 100% sure of kosher rules, but I bet there's lots of room for negotiation. Could you have a friend bring over a big pot and do the lobster in that? Or do it at someone's house, altogether? Maybe you can get a dog that lives in an outbuilding? Or help the kid get a job volunteering at an animal shelter? Or dog sitting/walking?

There's a huge difference betw. just telling the kid, "No. We don't do that in this family." and, "OK, I'm not comfortable with that b/c of xyz, but I can certainly help you try to find a way to make it work."

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

First of all, just because the parent isn't willing to do something that goes against their values does not mean that they are "imposing" their values.

I think that's semantics. If I am unwilling to do something my kid wants me to do because it goes against my values system, does it matter whether I say I'm "sharing" my values or "imposing" them?

My oldest wants me to cook meat for her. I won't. Nor will I let her cook meat in our house. It's against my dh's and my fundamental values. I let her eat meat elsewhere, I let people bring her prepared meat dishes, and she is able to spend our family's money to buy dead animals when we go to a restaurant, but I draw the line at preparing dead animals/letting her prepare dead animals in our home.

Although I have worked with her to find other ways for her to get her meat fix (such as the above listed ones), she has told me she really wouldn't be happy unless she were able to prepare and consume meat in our home. It is not "sharing" my values to tell her no. It is imposing them by being unwilling to do something that she wants that goes against my most fundamental values.

I also wanted to add that, with young children, parents' values pretty much are imposed because young children don't have the ability to consider a range of options. They are pretty much stuck with the way things are in their home. As children get older and naturally are more exposed to differing values, I can see it actually becoming a process of "sharing," but I just don't see it with young kids. And, like UUMom, I think it's dishonest to say that a situation is something other than what it is.

dm

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Although I have worked with her to find other ways for her to get her meat fix (such as the above listed ones), she has told me she really wouldn't be happy unless she were able to prepare and consume meat in our home. It is not "sharing" my values to tell her no. It is imposing them by being unwilling to do something that she wants that goes against my most fundamental values.dm

Is this scenario what is advocated on the Crunchy Unschoolers list?

I still get the feeling on this thread that RU is being considered something that its really not. Yes, the younger the child, the more the parent will basically be "controlling" the environment that child lives in, by the simple fact that the child developmentally cannot (a six month old doesnt care whether there is a tv on at home yknow?)...and i do not believe that RU and "noncoercive parenting" or "Taking Children Seriously (TCS)" are the same thing. I think there is some confusion about that in this thread.


Katherine

[naturallyspeaking]

Qs for those unschooled for a few years...

HI,
I don't know much about unschooling world but your description fits out lifestyle and I didn't know there was a term for it .
While we don't restrict as much as far as meal time and tv time but I do restrict what my 5 yr old watches on TV which is mostly PBS KIDS and kids videos/dvds. Also I do restrict candy, juice and sugar intake. I guess I'm not that radical haha. I wonder though with this radical unschooling approach, if our kids will be left behind as far as educational knowledge for their age peers who were homeschooled. (I'm curious and worried for my own kids). For those who've done this approach for a few years, did your children learn to read/write at a reasonable age and also eventually learned to love learning?
Much more to learn about unschooling but I like the idea~

Originally Posted by radiantorganics

Forgive me if I am not posting in the correct place. I am relatively new to this forum.

We are an unschooling family with two boys, 5 & 1 yo. I would love to connect with others who are also unschooling with a 'radical' twist. For those who do not know what this means, it is applying the unschooling philosophy to all areas of life- for example, no bed time, no food restrictions, etc. Kids self-regulate themselves (as we adults wish we could do better..."don't have that extra piece of cake...but I want it...ahhh! why can't you listen to me, self?"). KWIM?

best,
jenn

[UnschoolnMa]

My kids love reading and writing. Ds prefers to type though.

[OrganicallyGrown]

I think some of this discussion is getting unfriendly and I want to point that out.

Everyone has different values and I believe that unschooling is about kids being exposed to life and all the different values that are out there in the world.

DH & I choose to live according to our own value system and yes we are open and honest about those values/choices with our kids. For instance, we are atheists. We have talked about this with our oldest son Blake. But I have offered to take him to church or learn about various religions if he is ever curious.

I think it would be dishonest and not 'real' to not share our values with our kids- hopefully we do so with an openness to their individul choices.

Currently in our home DS (5 1/2) has gotten into cursing. I don't really care for hearing cuss words all day long and I have told him that. I have also told him that I understand that he enjoys the words and that I accept that.

Please tell me if I'm not 'getting it'.

and let's keep this discussion peaceful and friendly, eh? We are all here to learn and share

warmly,
jenn

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by radiantorganics

I think some of this discussion is getting unfriendly and I want to point that out.

Everyone has different values and I believe that unschooling is about kids being exposed to life and all the different values that are out there in the world.

DH & I choose to live according to our own value system and yes we are open and honest about those values/choices with our kids. For instance, we are atheists. We have talked about this with our oldest son Blake. But I have offered to take him to church or learn about various religions if he is ever curious.

I think it would be dishonest and not 'real' to not share our values with our kids- hopefully we do so with an openness to their individul choices.

Currently in our home DS (5 1/2) has gotten into cursing. I don't really care for hearing cuss words all day long and I have told him that. I have also told him that I understand that he enjoys the words and that I accept that.

Please tell me if I'm not 'getting it'.

and let's keep this discussion peaceful and friendly, eh? We are all here to learn and share

warmly,
jenn

Imo, you absolutely do get it.

[AngelBee]

Let's play nice because I am really enjoying this convo.

I will be honest.....I am not what most would consider an "unschooler" or consentual living mama. I do not necessarily want to be 100% due to personal beliefs that I do want my children to share. (I am on a journey...so I may not have phrased that right.....bare with me )

What I do love is the perspective that I gleam from these convos. I see things in a different way. I become more creative, more open.

I may not be able to personalize every suggestion.....but it is refreshing to see alternatives to doing things as everyone else does them. :

Hope that makes sense.

[WuWei]

Yet, you are letting your child freely choose whether or not she wants the bratz doll.?

Yes, facilitate and partner with. And without the lecture to boot. (did you read Danielle's explanation specifically about buying the Bratz doll?) There in lies the difference between sharing and imposing.

When ds asked why I don't eat pork, I stated that I don't eat mammals. He understands that "meat" comes from killed, dead animals. I buy and cook meat for him, because he is a physically dependent member of our family. When he is able, he can certainly cook meat in our family home, if he desires. I do not eat it. We also have leather furniture. He understands that it is skin from a dead cow. He doesn't have to buy leather. He may. Where is the imposition?

Same with church/spirituality exploration. I would facilitate without judgment. Ds, just as dh, is welcome to explore or practice his own personal religion/spirituality/values/morality/consumerism/sustainability/dietary beliefs/etc. There is no guilting. There is shared information IF an interest is expressed in my personal practice or opinion. I trust modeling to express my personal beliefs. I also observe that ds will seek additional information if he desires it. I didn't eat meat for about a year before ds observed that I wasn't eating it. There was no "imposing" of my beliefs related to it. Subsequently, ds still eats meat, two years later and I don't. Dh does also, without lecture otherwise. I honor each person choosing his own beliefs, even those beliefs which are different than my own.

Pat

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I think that's semantics. If I am unwilling to do something my kid wants me to do because it goes against my values system, does it matter whether I say I'm "sharing" my values or "imposing" them?

I don't think its just semantics. There are differences between facilitating and forbidding, and exposing and imposing.

And there are differences depending on what the rest of your lives look like, too.

Originally Posted by dharmamama

My oldest wants me to cook meat for her. I won't. Nor will I let her cook meat in our house. It's against my dh's and my fundamental values. I let her eat meat elsewhere, I let people bring her prepared meat dishes, and she is able to spend our family's money to buy dead animals when we go to a restaurant, but I draw the line at preparing dead animals/letting her prepare dead animals in our home.

Although I have worked with her to find other ways for her to get her meat fix (such as the above listed ones), she has told me she really wouldn't be happy unless she were able to prepare and consume meat in our home. It is not "sharing" my values to tell her no. It is imposing them by being unwilling to do something that she wants that goes against my most fundamental values.

But to be fair, you all aren't radical unschoolers, right--or am I mixing you up with someone else?

I think RU kids respond *very* differently to limits and/or freedoms than other kids. And maybe that's coming into play here.

If 99% of the time I'm working with my kids to facilitate their needs and wants, then the rare times where we bump up against a real limit (like your core belief that animals not be prepared in the home), they are incredibly understanding and willing to work around it in a mutually agreeable way.

Just like the times I say, "I'm too tired to do that right now." If that's what they heard the majority of the time, I'm sure their responses would be much different than what they usually are--quite understanding and helpful. Am I "imposing" my tiredness on them? I don't think so. I'm setting out one of my needs and they are *voluntarily* working "around" it.

I think it's kind of like the M&M example that came up before....asking why RUs won't/can't answer the question, "Yeah, but what if they DON'T....?" Maybe therein lies the answer....that it is outside of our experience to have a kid who NEVER got to a healthy point of "self-regulation." That to me, is proof in and of itself, you know?

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

.

I may not be able to personalize every suggestion.....but it is refreshing to see alternatives to doing things as everyone else does them. :

Hope that makes sense.

I agree that alternatives are quite helpful.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Yes, facilitate and partner with. And without the lecture to boot. (did you read Danielle's explanation specifically about buying the Bratz doll?)
b


Pat

I trust my children 100%. Therefore, it's absolutely not up to me to decide what toys they should or should not experience. Bratz or not.

[mama in the forest]

: I'm finding this thread fascinating.

If someone had asked me three days ago, "are you a radical unschooler?" I would have replied, "no, just an unschooler", but I'm seeing that I am more radical than I thought. When I think about it, the only limits that have been placed on my kids were those that they created for themselves or those that occurred naturally from life in a big family. I just hadn't given much thought to what we do outside of the idea of unschooling in general. And that's just it: it's all the same. I trust them to follow their own path of learning and it isn't separate from their own path in life.

Still, aside from the judgement calls that parents make on safety and health, there are some things that I am passionate about in my own life and those things spill over to my home. I know my kids are influenced by those things and I see it as a positive, just as I see all the other ways they learn about life and living as positive. (books, other people, travel, etc). Still, I would imagine that my presence in the home and their love for me would mean that my influence was strong...perhaps stronger than I would have imagined.

I love trusting the kids. It makes my job as mother so much easier.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

:
radical than I thought. When I think about it, the only limits that have been placed on my kids were those that they created for themselves or those that occurred naturally from life in a big family.


Still, aside from the judgement calls that parents make on safety and health, there are some things that I am passionate about in my own life and those things spill over to my home.


I love trusting the kids. It makes my job as mother so much easier.

I snipped some stuff, because I wanted to highlight what most speaks to me.

My kids are older than some of yours (although I think some of mine are younger than some of yours lol).

Passion. *That* is where it's at.

They don't need all of our baggage.

My children have taught me far, far more than I have taught them. When children can *be*, without all of our 'stuff'--- that's when they blossom. When their own passions can be respected and their ideas set free, only then are free to be *whoever* they are. Even if what they love (cutting edge fashion, skimpy clothing, big-eyed doll design, TV writing) isn't something that we are passionate about, or even think is 'important'.

It's a huge leap of faith, but the leap to let go is the one that matters most.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

I love trusting the kids. It makes my job as mother so much easier.

I can't fathom going through life not trusting my child.

[mama in the forest]

Let's see UUmom, you've got 18, 15, 13, & 8.....
Mine are 19, 10 (on Friday), 7, 5, 3, & 13 months. Between the two of us we've got it covered.

Yeah...trust. I trusted them as newborns and I guess that hasn't really changed.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

Let's see UUmom, you've got 18, 15, 13, & 8.....
Mine are 19, 10 (on Friday), 7, 5, 3, & 13 months. Between the two of us we've got it covered.

Yeah...trust. I trusted them as newborns and I guess that hasn't really changed.

Ooooooh, I want a 3 YR OLD! LOL Seriously, I do! That age is where they are coming into their own and challenge us the most.

Thankfully, my sister shares her new soul with my family. He is just a bit over 26 mos. He spends many days with us here on our little 'farm'. He and my own kids keep me real. When I think I know more, their presence sets me straight. These beings help us set out own selves free.

Blessings on you and yours.