Any radical unschoolers here? - Page 11

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't think that response is RU.

How is that facilitating the child's interest?

Couldn't the parent find someone else to take the child? Could they find a virtual tour online? Could the kid pay the admission dollars?

There are tons of possiblities that don't involve shutting down the kid's desire b/c of the parent's convictions.

Yes. The zoo respnse is not RU. It might be CU, but it's not RU.

And what 3 yr old says "I don't give a rip about your feelings about zoos, I want to go. Get out your wallet". Most 3 yrs might feel upset thiking they've done wanted something wrong, that they've upset their parents with their desire. Or they feel shame that they still want to see the animals even though he know knows his parents think it's a horrible thing.

Talk about a mind game. Talk about emotional baggage.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Ah, so maybe RU/CU isn't possible in religious homes? I don't know any Muslims who would keep a dog, or those who keep Kosher who would cook a lobster. Or let someone bring in a lobster to cook in their kitchen. Some of the most wonderful families I know however, are religious Jews, fwiw, so in the end, I can see that RU/CU aren't theories that ring true or honest for me.

I don't think strict religious convictions preclude RU. But it might make coming up with ways to facilitate the kid's interests a bit trickier.

Like people have said, there are other ways to facilitate an interest in dogs or a desire to cook lobster than doing it in the home or outright forbidding it.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't think strict religious convictions preclude RU. But it might make coming up with ways to facilitate the kid's interests a bit trickier.

Like people have said, there are other ways to facilitate an interest in dogs or a desire to cook lobster than doing it in the home or outright forbidding it.

While at the same time trying not to influence your child's choice of religion, one way or the other, yes?

[mama in the forest]

You ladies are too quick draw posters to let me get in. ...

Isn't RU more in the intent of the parent, and then the fine nuances of communication that can make a difference?

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by May May

WuWei, I want to respond more to this.


For me, part of the affirmation also is how healthy I feel when I trust me.

In light of that, I notice my upbringing that was based in fear and and see that I've spend my life moving away from that original, unquestioned belief (that "life is safer when lived in fear"). I am trusting myself and no longer need to reason with myself constantly with decisions -- they make themselves when I trust me, listening to my inner voice.

Another part of the affirmation is that I trust and support that this is where I'm supposed to be right here, right now and that I cannot possibly move my self ahead of my own evolution.

When I'm in this space of trust, I see the way out of the fear, step by step, laid out before me, clear as day. My children are then witnesses to a a real process of evolution that happens to be going on in their mother. It is reality and the evidence is that we're more vital and intimate than ever before when we sit in this space of trusting and loving what is, together. I have been showing them the way out of Hell in my opinion (the only kind of hell I know of - we don't have to die to go there in my experience), and now they're blessed with the knowledge of how that's done should they ever experience suffering from the effects of believing that they want reality to be different than it is at any given time in their lives and they're not experiencing what they want in that moment.

In that space, they're not sheltered from reality they're trusted along with reality.

In addition, I see that my children are noticing that they want to generously serve others with their knowledge of the path to peace on Earth. Truly universal healthcare, IMO.

and this--

"I hear you. This, to me, would be similar to the question of ~ Do you
save your child from running into traffic or do you let them 'learn
for themselves' about cause and effect in this area?

"My response is that of course I protect my child from traffic. The
difference is, however, that I'm clear that my reason is because it
makes ME feel better to do so and not becaus I presume to know what is
best for them, which I cannot possibly know in my experience and opinion.

This is what I'm referring to when I speak of 'staying in my own
business' -- which is never a vacuum and often (if not always) spills
over into all of humanity, including my dear children".


I delelted who posted this, and now I can't find it. Hopefully I am not losing my brain. lol Well, I have but ykwim. lol


__._,_.___

This is the first post I recall about fear Vs trust. It wasn't you, MM, it was May May, a different MM.

But I knew it had been brought up.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

You ladies are too quick draw posters to let me get in. ...

Isn't RU more in the intent of the parent, and then the fine nuances of communication that can make a difference?

I don't think so, but looking forward to learning more.

And yes, too much internet this morning for me.

[mnearthmomma]

I haven't read through all of these pages, but just wanted to chime in and say we are here too!

I think the only food type restriction we have here is that kids can just go in the fridge themselves, but if they are hungry, mom or dad will help them out. We also limit sugary junk and the like.

Other than that, we really restrict nothing unless it is being used as discipline, ie. early to bed for sassing or no "Pirates of the Carribean" if they decide it's a good idea to bite or be naughty in some way.

Glad we aren't the only "crazy people" who realize our children are people too.

[KoalaMama]

I've been following this thread since it started, and am really appreciative of the insights shared here. I wouldn't call us an RU family, but I would say it is something that makes a lot of sense to me in general, and we are more in line with this than not. I find that any time I want to place restrictions on my children it really does come from a place of fear. That speaks volumes to me. So, it's something I work on changing every day. (And I'm especially thankful to Pat/WuWei for many moments of inspiration over the past months!)

To comment on some of the back and forth conversation here... I'm not sure I get the point of this disagreement over imposition vs. influence? The self-identified RU families seem to be saying that they are able to interact with their children without imposing. The self-identified non-RU families are saying that they don't feel this is possible. It hardly matters whether or not *I* feel I could stick to my own moral ground without imposing on my kids when I'm considering someone else's assertion that they can. It might sound difficult/complex to me from my perspective, but I trust that others are being truthful when they express that things look different from their vantage point. It seems obvious to me that both sides are 'right', from the perspectives of their own experiences.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mnearthmomma

I haven't read through all of these pages, but just wanted to chime in and say we are here too!

I think the only food type restriction we have here is that kids can just go in the fridge themselves, but if they are hungry, mom or dad will help them out. We also limit sugary junk and the like.

Other than that, we really restrict nothing unless it is being used as discipline, ie. early to bed for sassing or no "Pirates of the Carribean" if they decide it's a good idea to bite or be naughty in some way.

Glad we aren't the only "crazy people" who realize our children are people too.

To RU peeps-- would sending kids to be bed for sassing, or not allowing a movie if the kids are 'naughty', truly RU? Or is RU anything people say it is?

Are we back to the same question again?

If so, I'm sorry. But if something is one thing, but we twist it to be something else, is it anything?

[unfrozncavegrl]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Yes. The zoo respnse is not RU. It might be CU, but it's not RU.

And what 3 yr old says "I don't give a rip about your feelings about zoos, I want to go. Get out your wallet". Most 3 yrs might feel upset thiking they've done wanted something wrong, that they've upset their parents with their desire. Or they feel shame that they still want to see the animals even though he know knows his parents think it's a horrible thing.

Talk about a mind game. Talk about emotional baggage.

So what do you do? Go to the zoo with your 3 year old and suffer personally as you witness what you consider animal abuse? I do not mean for this question to appear snarky. I grapple with this type of stuff often.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mnearthmomma

I haven't read through all of these pages, but just wanted to chime in and say we are here too!

I think the only food type restriction we have here is that kids can just go in the fridge themselves, but if they are hungry, mom or dad will help them out. We also limit sugary junk and the like.

Other than that, we really restrict nothing unless it is being used as discipline, ie. early to bed for sassing or no "Pirates of the Carribean" if they decide it's a good idea to bite or be naughty in some way.

Glad we aren't the only "crazy people" who realize our children are people too.

Welcome

FWIW, I think most people who are Radical Unschoolers tend to talk with a person about how their behavior effects others rather than imposing consequences as a punishment. Natural consequences (things that happen by themselves as a result of a behavior) are common but logical consequences (punishment that fits the crime, as decided upon by the parent) are not.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by UUMom

To RU peeps-- would sending kids to be bed for sassing, or not allowing a movie if the kids are 'naughty', truly RU?

Not in my opinion, no. We don't even really buy into "naughty" though so there's that to consider.

Just to clarify for my own understanding, the poster who gave that example was giving it as an example of what they DON'T do, right? Like "none of that stuff is happening around here." That's how I read it anyway.

[unfrozncavegrl]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Not in my opinion, no. We don't even really buy into "naughty" though so there's that to consider.

Just to clarify for my own understanding, the poster who gave that example was giving it as an example of what they DON'T do, right? Like "none of that stuff is happening around here." That's how I read it anyway.

I read it as the opposite of you.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by unfrozncavegrl

I read it as the opposite of you.

You know what? I just read it again and you are totally right, it wasn't what I originally read (or thought I was reading) at all.

So I stand corrected. And umm no, that kind of thing doesn't really work for me as RU at all.

[mnearthmomma]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Not in my opinion, no. We don't even really buy into "naughty" though so there's that to consider.

Just to clarify for my own understanding, the poster who gave that example was giving it as an example of what they DON'T do, right? Like "none of that stuff is happening around here." That's how I read it anyway.

It was really lack of a better term...disagreeable behaviour I guess? how do you want e to word it?

I am not a fan of my 5 year old sassing and when she does, there are consequences for her actions. I am not rearing my children to be disagreeable and disrespectful people.

and that is not to say we don't discuss the issue or the problem at hand before she has to deal with the reprecussions of her actions-as we do, we are a very vocal, feeling family. We respect our children and feel the same from them is not only fair, but necessary.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mnearthmomma

I am not a fan of my 5 year old sassing and when she does, there are consequences for her actions. I am not rearing my children to be disagreeable and disrespectful people.

Have you visited the Gentle Discipline forum? There are some really good ideas there, for working with our children and helping them see how their behavior affects others, that don't involve punishment.

[mnearthmomma]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Have you visited the Gentle Discipline forum? There are some really good ideas there, for working with our children and helping them see how their behavior affects others, that don't involve punishment.

I have and I am pretty well read, but I truly think it comes down to the personality of each child...now we would never ever ever think of any kind of humiliation, or physical abuse or anything of the sort, but with this particular child, removing her from a situation or revoking privileges is what works. She is neither resentful nor does the behaviour happen often. We never curse or use harsh or strong words to our children, but they do (well our 5 year old only at this point) get sat down, spoken to about their decisions and actions, asked about the whys and wherefores and thendealt with accordingly...often letting her choose her consequence and she often chooses wisely and within her age and attention span-which I am a great fan of. I think that is partnering in her discipline as best as we can given everything we have read, been taught and know from instinct about how to dela when they get a little unruly.

I already know its going to be a totally different situation with our 2 year old as she is even more fiery than her sister...it shall be interesting but we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mnearthmomma

I already know its going to be a totally different situation with our 2 year old as she is even more fiery than her sister...it shall be interesting but we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

Just a brief word of warning. Some children's temperaments are such that ANY kind of discipline/punishment actually escalates their behavior (they get angry or feel you are being unjust and behave more and more badly). What works for kids like mine is to focus on spending positive time together and helping them feel connected and loved. The bad behavior lessens when they are feeling better and happier. Reading a book together or playing a game is more effective than a time-out or whatnot, with kids like mine. Just wanted to share my experience since you mentioned "fiery"

[WuWei]

For anyone interested in exploring Radically Unschooling, rather than debating whether it exists or its merits, please consider the Always Unschooled yahoogroup. It seems that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about RU which has been espoused within this thread by folks not practicing RU. Perhaps, one would prefer to learn more about RU there. There are 1800 families who are members of the group.

At AlwaysUnschooled, members create a space in which Radical Unschooling can be seriously discussed as a lifestyle that begins at birth. AU is geared towards thoughtful discussion and exploration of what Radical Unschooling looks like from birth and beyond for our "always unschooled" children.

Secular in nature, we welcome unschoolers from all walks of life. Our discussions focus on exploring topics like organic learning, respectful parenting, consensual-living, freedom and autonomy, living by principles, convincing family, surviving panic and criticism, living without fear, resisting enrollment, non-coercive parenting, deschooling ourselves, joyful living and releasing control.

This is an on-topic discussion list dedicated to achieving a deeper understanding of Radical Unschooling as a lifestyle--topics that fall outside this description belong, please, on more appropriate lists. As a discussion list, AU regularly challenges ideas and accepted memes.

Experienced and new unschoolers can discuss how they made the transition from peaceful parenting to unschooling in daily practice, when that transition occurred and what benefits children gain by unschooling from the beginning.

Please take a week or so to read the list and refer to the list guidelines under "Files" before posting. Member recommended Books can be found under "Database," and there's lots of interesting reading under "Links."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/


Pat

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by unfrozncavegrl

So what do you do? Go to the zoo with your 3 year old and suffer personally as you witness what you consider animal abuse? I do not mean for this question to appear snarky. I grapple with this type of stuff often.

If I were truly oppsed to zoos I would not take my child, but I would not try to get the child to not want to go. I am assuming the child wants to see animals that he can't see otherwise, and the politics of it aren't something I would tackle with a 3 yr old. I would say "I don't like to visit animals in zoos, but perhpas Grandpa would like to take you. Why don't we call her". Then you decide if grandma pays or you pay admission. lol The only excpetion here is if the zoo is particularly and extra horrible-- then I woud just say no. "They do not take good care of the anmals there. lets find a place that cares about their animals".

Futher, and along the same lines, if I were kosher, I would not prepare lobster, nor would I want my child to eat it, and I would tell them so. "When you are an adult, you might not choose to keep kosher. You are my little guy and I need to raise you following the laws of Judiasm,which are not just important to me, but part of my entire life, so no lobster for you right now, buddy. But how about we make pizza togehter?".

So, not RU or CU.