Any radical unschoolers here? - Page 5

[ZanZansMommy]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I remember crying sometimes when the children were playing happily around the house, but when all i wanted to do was sleep. How can you stop that with respect? You can't really, but you can take care of yourself somewhat. I have a vivid memory of one particular night, just so tired.... the children were running around, laughing happily and I was crying because they were so happy, and I couldn't enjoy it the way I wanted to. Dh was away. I was *so* tired. I wanted them to stop. I wanted to lie down and wake 10 hours later with nobody needing me.

I remember the tears on my face, the feeling that I just didn't know what to do. I couldn't stop them; I didn't want to stop them. I wished I felt as happy as they did at that moment. I remember getting the sofa quilt and putting it on the floor, I got some some food-- cheese sticks and crackers. I put in a video, Mary Poppins, my favorite movie as a child, and shut off the living room lights, the kitchen lights. With my nursling in my arms, I just slipped to the floor. I sat there, crying, nursing, hoping they would stop running and laughing. In a few minutes, they came into the living room, saw the picnic, and sat down. There was no teeth brushing, no stories, but we all fell asleep on the floor, just like that. Maybe I fell asleep first, I don't remember, but it happend, maybe one by one, maybe mostly together? But it happened. Nobody woke me, nobdy cried. When I woke up, we were all lying on the quilt, all of the children alseep, the movie having rewound and begun again. I wasn't crying.

In a little bit, I picked up the oldest child and and put him in his bed. Then I took the babies & went to bed, feeling so much better. Weirdly, I felt proud of me for not losing it. Maybe that's what we need to focus on, the not losing it, even in our imperfection.

As someone who is learning/trying everyday what it's like to be an unschooler your story was partuclarly helpful mama. Thank You for posting this & sharing what must have been a difficult day for you. It touched me & lifted me up today

[4evermom]

ITA, Monkey's Mom. Anytime I sit down with ds and really observe what he is doing, I totally understand that he is learning. I know other people have a harder time with that, though. Maybe because my ds has always needed a lot of interaction and company, I have just had more opportunity. I have spent many hours sitting next to him while he plays computer games or watches tv/videos. I love seeing his mind make connections. I might not notice if I wasn't so present in his activities (not judging those who aren't. I'm jealous of people who have kids who play by themselves, lol, but maybe this quirk of my ds makes this aspect of unschooling easier for me).

[UUMom]

What I noticed over the years, is that I've got few to no issues with older children having free range TV, as the decision is made knowing there are a huge variety of interests and activites from which to choose. There are certain movies/programming they like, and they can communicate those needs/pleasures with articulation.

It was more difficult for me when they were little. Is a 2 yr old watching TV because she really wants to, or is she sitting there simply because a parent has offerred nothing else? A two yr old might become entranced by television, but they might also become entranced by talking a walk, or going to the library.

There is a point where you ask yourself, "Is my toddler watching TV because it's easy for me; are they watching because we've not introduced other things? Can I offer more variety?" My 13 yr old making a decision on his own that he wants to laugh hysterically at Scrubs is much clearer.

I also think Healy's brain research is very compelling wrt to infants, toddlers and brain wiring. I can't ignore that work.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by UUMom

It was more difficult for me when they were little. Is a 2 yr old watching TV because she really wants to, or is she sitting there simply because a parent has offered nothing else? A two yr old might become entranced by television, but they might also become entranced by talking a walk, or going to the library.

I didn't have that problem because ds was more interested in operating the tv (turning it off and on) when he was a toddler. It wasn't really until he was 3 that he would hold still long enough to watch at all. Again, the way my ds happens to be is part of what makes unschooling easy for me. I had no intentions to hs, let alone unschool, until we tried pre-k and realized all structured schooling was wrong for him.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

It was more difficult for me when they were little. Is a 2 yr old watching TV because she really wants to, or is she sitting there simply because a parent has offerred nothing else? A two yr old might become entranced by television, but they might also become entranced by talking a walk, or going to the library.

IME, 2 yr olds don't "sit there" just because parents aren't offering interesting things to do. IME, 2yo's are pretty resourceful about finding their own very interesting explorations.

That's not to say that playing outdoors, going on outings, and having a wide variety of books and toys, as well as things like mud, dirt, sand, and playdough to work with -- are bad things at all.

I'm just saying toddlers generally aren't going to sit, glued to the TV set, patiently waiting for their parents to "introduce" things. I haven't found toddlers to naturally be that passive.

Now, in a punitive home where everything fun, rambunctious, or messy is a big no-no, I can see how a small child could be cowed into just sitting on the couch and living vicariously through the TV. But in homes where toddlers can do what they want, they're only going to sit there and watch if they're interested.

Even if the TV's on all day, free-range toddlers will be getting up to climb on the furniture, bang on the pots and pans, and so on.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Are you angry? I love the conversations, that's why I am here. Finding something amusing doesn't make it a bad conversation. I find it amusing that even many RU don't realize that RU could mean candy all day, and no teeth brushing at night at times Or piles of made- in -China plastic toys from the MIL, or even the child's own piggy band. It means no Bratz banning. I think these classic conversations are helpful. I really do.

I'm not angry.

But it is coming off as kind of condescending to have someone who doesn't identify as RU to start laughing about the direction of the conversation and commenting on how typical it is for us, you know? Especially when several of us have expressed a sort of sadness or feeling disheartened by it. I'm sure that's not the part you're amused by, but still, it seems a bit insensitive to me.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I'm not angry.

But it is coming off as kind of condescending to have someone who doesn't identify as RU to start laughing about the direction of the conversation and commenting on how typical it is for us, you know? Especially when several of us have expressed a sort of sadness or feeling disheartened by it. I'm sure that's not the part you're amused by, but still, it seems a bit insensitive to me.

It's true I am not pure RU as it's defined today, but I have far more experience w/RU and raising my children in freedom than most anyone in this thread. You can put me on ignore if you don't like my questions or comments.

[monkey's mom]

Huh?? You asked me where I was coming from and I explained.

I can't imagine that I would need to put you on Ignore.

:

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

IME, 2 yr olds don't "sit there" just because parents aren't offering interesting things to do. IME, 2yo's are pretty resourceful about finding their own very interesting explorations.

That's not to say that playing outdoors, going on outings, and having a wide variety of books and toys, as well as things like mud, dirt, sand, and playdough to work with -- are bad things at all.

I'm just saying toddlers generally aren't going to sit, glued to the TV set, patiently waiting for their parents to "introduce" things. I haven't found toddlers to naturally be that passive.

Now, in a punitive home where everything fun, rambunctious, or messy is a big no-no, I can see how a small child could be cowed into just sitting on the couch and living vicariously through the TV. But in homes where toddlers can do what they want, they're only going to sit there and watch if they're interested.

Even if the TV's on all day, free-range toddlers will be getting up to climb on the furniture, bang on the pots and pans, and so on.

Well, that's part of the question, isn't it? If a child is 'sitting there' in a home rich with possibilities and a caregiver who is in tune with the child, then sitting there is one choice of many. It's for each family to know whether the offerrings are there, whether they are genuine, or whether they are glad the child isn't looking for other opportunities.

It's also for each family to decide whether any of Healy's research about brain wiring in toddlers and infants is compelling or not. Ime, most RU these days don't feel that research holds water, so the amount, or 'quality' of TV viewing is not an issue at all, and perhaps not up for questioning.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Huh?? You asked me where I was coming from and I explained.

I can't imagine that I would need to put you on Ignore.

:

Now I am confused. You are calling me on my attitude, you have basically said I am making fun of you, yet you still want to read what I post? It's not up to any of us here to tell other people what they can post, or to determine their style of posting/writing. Unless there are UA violations, of course, and I can't see where I've violated anything, this is a free forum. For sure, what we each think is amusing differs. And that's OK.

So, where are you on the RU spectrum? TV for toddlers? Free range food? Share and we can talk.

[bente]

Im pretty sure we would fit in to the radical category. Although it does not feel very radical

We are all very self directed - dh, me and the kids. Now, there are things that I am not fond of - that my kids LOVE, and usually when I spend some time thinking about it then I see the value in what they like. We don't make big plans, we just live life, and somehow it just turns out to be really great times.

Living this way is more a state of mind than a label -

Even if I, in the bottomless hell of sleep deprivation, did not treat my family the way I wish I had I don't see it as swinging in an out of radicalness. It's just life and you deal - I will do better next time

[WuWei]

Could the pros and cons of tv discussion be taken to its own thread?

Parental Imposed Limitations are not representative of an RU philosophy, I believe that we could agree. One could certainly be moving toward a Radically Unschooling lifestyle, or follow some aspects of RU; but maintaining limitations doesn't seem philosophically in line with Trusting Children to learn organically.





Pat

[queenjane]

KAtherine, I don't see where *anyone* said "Ok, now everyone go to bed". We are talking about how to get everyone's needs met in a respectful way. Lowering the nights and snuggling together is not saying "Go to bed now".

No one said that, which is why i didnt quote a specific person. However, i get the feeling from this:

One reason I've moved away from 100% identifying myself with unschooling theory is because I often feel people don't present honest ways of offerring help or sympathy for parental 'doneness'. Kind of like, "We've been out all day, and I am so tired, and now my child wants to go out for ice cream, plus I'm boke". Sometimes we don't want the advice to be-- "Maybe if you went outside you might perk up? Or can you look through all the couch cushions for change and come up with enough to get ice cream?" Sometimes a parent really is spent, no matter how much you wish you weren't.

is that you want advice from RU to be "its ok, you did your best, its fine"...rather than advice in which *everyone* (mom, kids,etc)gets their needs met. I have read over and over again advice from very experience unschooling moms that its fine to NOT let little kids stay up all night, being loud, so no one else can get any sleep. That its important to create an atmosphere conducive to either sleeping, or settling down and being quiet. To possibly set up quiet activities, a video, etc either in the parental room or in the living room (or wherever) so the child doesnt necessarily have to *sleep* but the parent can get the rest they need. LOTS and LOTS of these types of suggestions that help everyone get their needs met.

Its fine for a parent to admit they "are spent"...but what is wrong with the other suggestions? I dont get it...if a parent is really just looking for empathy after a hard day, fine. But in the ice cream scenario....i would absolutely expect a whole list of suggestions, including "we can't go right now, but lets make plans for tomorrow"....i'm honestly confused why you find that to be a problem?

See where these RU discusssions go? It's all over the place. How can anyone pull "Now go to bed!" out of a conversation about how one might calmly and respectfully end a busy day? See where it goes when you ponder, "I am not sure I want my small children watching a lot of TV"

Classic, classic. And frustrating. But still, predicatable and very .

I guess i find this a little insulting....because i'm not responding in the way you like (but in a way you presumably expect, as being a predictable RU answer)...its like you are chuckling under your breath.

Its ironic that you dont know how anyone got "now go to bed!" out of the conversation, but you pulled "i'm not sure i want my small children watching alot of tv" out of tv being referred to as "crap" "passive" and on and on.

I find it "classic" and "frustrating" that RU are often painted as ones who do not have a natural structure to their day, or who don't settle their young ones down at night with dim lights and soft music, or who just leave the tv on all day and offer nothing else to do. Yeah, those crazy RUs. : Its a stereotype that i have to deal with all the time, both online and IRL. Very frustrating.


Katherine

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Are you angry? I love the conversations, that's why I am here. Finding something amusing doesn't make it a bad conversation. I find it amusing that even many RU don't realize that RU could mean candy all day, and no teeth brushing at night at times Or piles of made- in -China plastic toys from the MIL, or even the child's own piggy band. It means no Bratz banning. I think these classic conversations are helpful. I really do.

I think the important thing in getting to the heart of RU, of really doing it well, is to look at WHY your child is doing a particular thing. And also how you respond to it. I was on an adoption forum, and was trying to explain RU to a mom with a couple of adopted teens. She said something like "Obviously your son has the discipline to self-regulate, but if i let my kids do whatever they want, they would be eating junk food at midnight, playing on the computer for 12 hours, cussing all the time, and staying up all night." I had to laugh, because she assumed my son (because he was so "self regulated" gag) did not do these things. It didnt occur to her that i would not view these things as "problems" to be solved.

I see this SO much in conversations with people about RU "Well, unschooling was working ok for us, until my child starting playing videogames all day and then i knew she needed more structure, she couldnt self-regulate"....they really missed the boat on understanding unschooling.

I see alot of good advice on unschooling forums, about looking at why your child is behaving a certain way (are they on the computer for hours because they are frustrated and bored, or because they are learning alot from the new complicated game they just bought?) and responding accordingly (offering more interesting things to do, vs. supporting your child in their efforts)....changing the mainstream mind set about what a child "should" be doing or how they "should" be learning is important. I think its easier to move toward a rich unschooling life, if a parent can leave words like "junk" "crap" "mindless" "screentime" "self regulate" etc behind. They serve no useful purpose, and are disrespectful to the child.

UUMom, what exactly do you want RU to say, when moms post questions about things like tv or food? What advice do you think would be appropriate, or not so "amusing" to you? I'm sensing that you think there is a "party line" and any advice outside that isnt welcome...however i just don't see how thats any different than a mom coming to the CLW forum, posting that she's so tired and wants to wean before the child is ready....what advice would be appropriate, ideas on how she can get through it, how to make it easier for her, empathy but other suggestions as well....or just saying "well, he is two, just wean..." I mean...really?! If a mom comes to an unschooling site for advice, i would think she would want....well, unschooling advice, yknow? She can take it or leave it.


Katherine

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by bente

Even if I, in the bottomless hell of sleep deprivation, did not treat my family the way I wish I had I don't see it as swinging in an out of radicalness. It's just life and you deal - I will do better next time

Gosh, this is soooo true! We've ALL had our moments i'm sure. Even just last night, i blew up at my son for something stupid (he spilled a whole glass of pop, mere minutes after i cautioned him about it, for the second time in a few days, because he was involved in a game and not paying attention where he was setting it.) But in the past (years ago)this would involved me screaming, maybe even hitting, instead of me lecturing him for several minutes and grumbling about the mess. I ended up apologizing to him later, for responding so poorly, and we came up with ideas for how to avoid him spilling stuff in the future, about how frustrated i can get when he calls things "accidents" that seem so avoidable to me, if only he would pay attention. We talked it out.

When i have moments like that, which happen rarely now, i think about how far we've come (me in the throes of depression, lying on my bed sobbing asking my toddler why he hates me so much, and him coming up to me and slapping me in the face and then laughing...oh those were the days!), from when i used to shame, and spank, and yell, and ignore him....to now when we are best friends, i can't remember the last time i used physical punishment, or any punishment, and we talk any disagreements through. But when i have less-than-stellar parenting moments, it reminds me that while its gotten so much easier, being mindful is something i still work on at times, my old parenting self is still there somewhere and i need to still do the work.

But i don't think i lose my RU membership card only that i'm human, and a work in progress, as are we all.


Katherine

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Could the pros and cons of tv discussion be taken to its own thread?

That might be a good idea -- and yet, for people pondering the free-tv aspect of RU, it might help if some of us share our own anecdotal research of the ways tv and computer games affect, or don't affect, children's creativity, social interaction, and interest in books and stories.

I mention the above three things, because these are the classic areas where many people think (and I used to think) tv and computer games are damaging to children.

One interesting thing I read on the "joyfully rejoicing" site is that the tv-studies don't really control for whether the children are schooled or unschooled -- and even for infants and toddlers, I think there may be wide differences in the amount of adult-imposed structure in their lives.

Who knows but what the majority of infants and toddlers in the studies are spending much of their day in daycare centers and preschools, rather than with a one-on-one caregiver who can respond promptly to their cues, and who lets them direct their own learning?

I'm not saying children in school and daycare need limits imposed on their tv-viewing -- I just think study results may have been very different if the focus had been on unschooled children.

There's a huge difference between spending 7 or so hours in a structured (by someone other than the child) setting, and needing tv to zone-out and de-stress from the day -- and having tons of open-ended time where you can structure your own day.

In unschooling, tv's just one of many choices of things to enjoy all throughout the day -- and the stress of having to meet someone else's expectations just isn't part of the equation. Again, I'm not saying that schooled children who rely on tv to de-stress should have it taken away -- just that I think tv is a whole different ball-game with unschoolers.

I'm not adverse to visiting another thread about tv -- but still don't see it as totally unrelated to this thread.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

-- and yet, for people pondering the free-tv aspect of RU...

I'm not adverse to visiting another thread about tv -- but still don't see it as totally unrelated to this thread.

I believe that folks might inquire about how does one reconcile their own concerns about tv (sugar/plastic toys/consumerism/safety/sleep needs, etc. within an RU lifestyle, without debating the merits of limiting tv. Kinda like the ole' Vegetarian thread, and inquiring 'how do you make the switch from being a carnivore', rather than coming to the vegetarian thread and saying "but meat has benefits". That topic isn't really in line with the thread philosophically, imo.

For those interested in in-depth discussions of these issues, I might suggest the Crunchy Unschoolers yahoogroup. They are Radical Unschoolers who embrace a sustainable lifestyle. There are 360 members who are like-minded. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrunchyUnschoolers/

Crunchy Unschoolers - A list for radical unschoolers who are interested in moving towards a sustainable lifestyle. Topics for discussion may include how sustainability and unschooling complement each other, and also how we resolve conflicting values - for instance, when a child wants lots of big plastic toys and this conflicts with a value of not adding more plastic to the earth, or balancing not controlling what a child wants to eat with attempting to feed a family healthy and sustainable food.

Pat

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by queenjane

I think the important thing in getting to the heart of RU, of really doing it well, is to look at WHY your child is doing a particular thing. And also how you respond to it. I was on an adoption forum, and was trying to explain RU to a mom with a couple of adopted teens. She said something like "Obviously your son has the discipline to self-regulate, but if i let my kids do whatever they want, they would be eating junk food at midnight, playing on the computer for 12 hours, cussing all the time, and staying up all night." I had to laugh, because she assumed my son (because he was so "self regulated" gag) did not do these things. It didnt occur to her that i would not view these things as "problems" to be solved.

I see this SO much in conversations with people about RU "Well, unschooling was working ok for us, until my child starting playing videogames all day and then i knew she needed more structure, she couldnt self-regulate"....they really missed the boat on understanding unschooling.

I see alot of good advice on unschooling forums, about looking at why your child is behaving a certain way (are they on the computer for hours because they are frustrated and bored, or because they are learning alot from the new complicated game they just bought?) and responding accordingly (offering more interesting things to do, vs. supporting your child in their efforts)....changing the mainstream mind set about what a child "should" be doing or how they "should" be learning is important. I think its easier to move toward a rich unschooling life, if a parent can leave words like "junk" "crap" "mindless" "screentime" "self regulate" etc behind. They serve no useful purpose, and are disrespectful to the child.

UUMom, what exactly do you want RU to say, when moms post questions about things like tv or food? What advice do you think would be appropriate, or not so "amusing" to you? I'm sensing that you think there is a "party line" and any advice outside that isnt welcome...however i just don't see how thats any different than a mom coming to the CLW forum, posting that she's so tired and wants to wean before the child is ready....what advice would be appropriate, ideas on how she can get through it, how to make it easier for her, empathy but other suggestions as well....or just saying "well, he is two, just wean..." I mean...really?! If a mom comes to an unschooling site for advice, i would think she would want....well, unschooling advice, yknow? She can take it or leave it.


Katherine

I am simply making obervations. Take them as you will, or not. Is having bedtimes, limiting TV, limiting candy RU? I don't think it is. It can't be. Is saying no to plastic toys that your kids want to buy RU? Imo, no.

I am finding it amsuing when I see that people who say they are RU, but then say "Well, I do not want them to have unlimited candy. And I don't think children should watch TV". Not RU. And so it goes. People come in and out, ask what it is, and find out it's something they didn't think it was.

You also seem to think people on this thread are asking if they are RU. I don;t see that. People are identifying as RU, even if they are not allowing TV or free range bedtimes.

You joined in the conversation to say people were posting bedtime ideas that are not what you would consider RU. You suggested people were looking for RU ways to say "Go to bed" and that simply did not take place on this thread.

What I see is everyone who posted questions or thoughts about food, bedtime etc as being respectful of their children and their needs. Whether some call that RU or not-- and I can see some things don't ring RU for you. That is *fine*. I am certainly not questioning your right to define RU for your own family.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I
Crunchy Unschoolers - A list for radical unschoolers who are interested in moving towards a sustainable lifestyle. Topics for discussion may include how sustainability and unschooling complement each other, and also how we resolve conflicting values - for instance, when a child wants lots of big plastic toys and this conflicts with a value of not adding more plastic to the earth, or balancing not controlling what a child wants to eat with attempting to feed a family healthy and sustainable food.

Pat

Now *that* is what I think some people are looking for. And it's not RU.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Now *that* is what I think some people are looking for. And it's not RU.

Check it out.
It is RU. RU is allowing a child his own path. That can occur while choosing to follow one's own moral compass while sharing information (not lectures or moralizing), and without edicts or limitations. RU and sustainable living are not mutually exclusive. :

Pat