How should we respond to this?

[bigeyes]

DD has started doing something that is driving DH and me nuts! Whenever DH, DS or I speak to her, she does not answer. It doesn't matter how many times we ask a question, she does not answer until DH or I just completely lose it, then she starts with a bunch of excuses as to why she didn't respond.

I was doing this, or I said this or I did answer you.:

It's maddening, especially since she most certainly was not answering or responding in any way.:

Dh and I keep running these things by her psychiatrist and psychologist but so far we don't have any real diagnosis. I still have no idea if she is a compulsive liar or delusional, or even if she's hormonal.

She stomps around and slams things, glares at everyone and engages in passive aggressive behavior, but when she talks to the doctors she doesn't express any anger.

I have no idea how much is pre teen hormones and how much is other stuff.

Obviously we will continue with counseling, but what is a natural consequence of this behavior? Or do we just ignore it? I don't know if we can ignore it. What is an acceptable GD response to her hostile behavior and ignoring everyone else when they speak to her?

[EdnaMarie]

I do that to my husband when he gets really annoying.

Sometimes, he doesn't listen to what I say. I mean he just doesn't. No matter what I say, he will interrupt (usually beginning with the word "no" as in, "I think that it's because of X-" "No, you didn't get the question, I asked-" etc.)

Or he will continually ask the same question over and over, thinking that I haven't answered, because he doesn't like the answer. He does not realize that he is doing this, and instead continually asks me, "Why didn't you answer?"

Or, for some reason that I can't understand, he will ask me questions to which he must know the answer. Like, "Is that what you're wearing?" which is not really a question. Or "Did you shut the door?" when he can see the door, and it's shut, and he knows he didn't shut it, so unless he thinks God himself shut it...

He is not crazy, but sometimes a bit tired from work (he has a really stressful job) and is not as patient as he should be at home.

Have you considered whether or not your questions might be bugging her, and why? Are they questions she might consider stupid? (Like- she asked if she could go out this afternoon. You said no. Later you ask what's upsetting her. Duh, she wanted to go out. Is she supposed to repeat herself? Or you ask her whether she cleaned her room. Does it look dirty?) Are they questions that she might have answered, but that you didn't accept? (When are you going to do the dishes? When I feel like it. When are you going to do the dishes? I already answered you.)

You could always ask her why she isn't answering your questions. Try to keep in mind that there might really be something wrong with at least some of your questions that could drive a kid crazy.

(Can you tell that I am a bit dogged at the moment? Heh.)

[bigeyes]

No, this is all day long, no matter which of us is speaking to her about anything. She doesn't speak at all, then gets all pissy when you tell her you've asked her a question 3 times and expect her to speak when she is spoken to. It's a matter of treating others with the same respect you would want.
Sometimes we'll ask her something and then 15 minutes later she'll come up and talk about the very same thing as if the conversation didn't take place. Other times she is just obviously ignoring and being rude.

But the ignoring thing is more as if she is trying to make it very clear that she hates all of us and can't stand to be around us. Of course, instead of staying in her room, she comes out to wherever one or all of us are so we can be aware that she isn't speaking to any of us. Any attempt at including her in conversation or asking her questions is met with glares and complete silence.

Personally, I'd rather she say I hate all of you than slam things and do the silent crap. She is obviously angry, but nobody knows what her problem is. She has huge control issues and is trying to bend all of us to her will, which is a problem for the rest of us. I'm trying to be compassionate, but she's really ticking me off.

I know therapy is going to take some time, but for the short term I'm trying to figure out how to keep from blowing my stack, and just what exactly she needs to help her feel more in control without letting her run the household.

Dh had one day off this week and he spent most of it yelling at her over her attitude. I'm trying not to yell and so is he, but the frustration is getting to both of us.

The psychologist told me the only thing she complained about was how she gets along with ds, which is funny because she seems to get along with him better than she does with me or dh. She does seem to resent his presence sometimes, but other times she is conspiring with him, which seems like a pretty normal sibling relationship to me.

I thought some of my problems with her were step issues and loyalty problems because of the dead bio-mom and the toxic relatives, but she's giving her dad the same attitude and I'm wondering if she's just hateful to everyone.

And she got into a fight at school friday. With an older boy.

There is so much anger and she won't or can't verbalize it. She's been taught this manipulative behavior from the toxic relatives to the point where I don't think she even realizes what she's doing, which is one of the many reasons she's seeing the docs. She buries everything behind this phony I'm so sweet and I love everyone facade and I think the only way she can let it out is to be completely obnoxious at home, but she can't verbalize it so she just slams and stomps and pouts.

Does that make sense? I'm grasping at straws here, I just can't figure her out. And right now, after being a total pain all morning, she's playing and laughing with her brother. : DH and I are baffled by the lies and the weirdness we're dealing with.

I fear that she's mentally ill and I don't want to make it worse, but how do you walk the line between enabling and gently standing your ground with regards to how you will be treated in your own home?

[Arduinna]

I don't know, if her therapists are good I'd probably ask them how I should handle it. Kids have limited control over their lives, compared to adults, and ignoring people is one the things they tend to resort to when they want more control. It's hard to say what anyone should do without a ton of history as to what is going on in the family.

I know in my house on the rare occasions dd seems to be ignoring us I just give her space. But I don't have any real issues with her. I do think that engaging in a power struggle with her probably isn't going to improve your daughters behavior. Not sure if you already know this but generally behavior is worse for awhile when starting counseling so I'd give extra space. And from what you have posted she isn't opening up much with her counselor. So either there hasn't been enough time for trust to grow so she feels she can talk freely or she needs someone else.

I might try this though. I'd say whatever I need to say and if I get no response, and you know she is purposely ignoring you, after that just say ok well and then state what I'm going to do. So if you were asking her what she wanted for dinner for example, and she ignores you make the decision what you are having and then move in to preparing it.

[Polly3]

Oh how I've SO been there with dss. I don't have any wonderful answer for you, but you might want to think about depression as a possibility. You can be severely depressed and still put a good front on for certain people. Dss struggled silently with depression for a long time. He absolutely refused to talk about it but he was obviously very, very angry. This got worse and worse through his pre-teen and early teen years until we finally decided that we should look at medication. Now not everyone will agree with medicating a teenager, however, if the behavior they exhibit is so extreme that they are barely functional - and he was barely functional socially especially - then I think you have to consider all the options. Anyway, it's gotten better and he actually BEGGED us to consider anti-depressants when we were tossing the idea around. A clear cry for help imo.

All of this to say, I understand your frustration, but there's not necessarily a whole lot you can do to get her to respond if she has decided she won't. Sounds like she is also pulling the wool over the therapist's eyes which dss did all the time. Is there anybody that she opens up to who you trust? That might get you a little closer to understanding her. I know it's hard to keep your cool. Believe me I know, but you do need to do that because all you're doing when you yell at her is shutting her down even further.

[bigeyes]

That makes a lot of sense, and it really had not occurred to me. We just started the psychiatrist on top of the psychologist and probably the stress of digging for the source is making her act out.

Is it normal to misdirect and give false answers in the beginning? Apparently her biomom lied to her therapists and was never diagnosed, but the docs we see now (and we too) suspect that she was undiagnosed schizophrenic which is one of the reasons we're concerned with her apparent disconnect with reality.

Sometimes I feel like she's trying to see just how obnoxious she can be and still be loved, ykwim?

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Polly3

Oh how I've SO been there with dss. I don't have any wonderful answer for you, but you might want to think about depression as a possibility. You can be severely depressed and still put a good front on for certain people. Dss struggled silently with depression for a long time. He absolutely refused to talk about it but he was obviously very, very angry. This got worse and worse through his pre-teen and early teen years until we finally decided that we should look at medication. Now not everyone will agree with medicating a teenager, however, if the behavior they exhibit is so extreme that they are barely functional - and he was barely functional socially especially - then I think you have to consider all the options. Anyway, it's gotten better and he actually BEGGED us to consider anti-depressants when we were tossing the idea around. A clear cry for help imo.

All of this to say, I understand your frustration, but there's not necessarily a whole lot you can do to get her to respond if she has decided she won't. Sounds like she is also pulling the wool over the therapist's eyes which dss did all the time. Is there anybody that she opens up to who you trust? That might get you a little closer to understanding her. I know it's hard to keep your cool. Believe me I know, but you do need to do that because all you're doing when you yell at her is shutting her down even further.

We think the therapist is actually on to her, but she just started with the psychiatrist and has only had 2 visits with him. It's an ongoing thing and I think we should have started much sooner than we did. She has witnessed so much and it has to have contributed to all this. DH is a reformed spanker and I'm working on reforming both of us from yelling.
I think she's buried her feelings for so long she doesn't know how to show them, and there are a lot of toxic family members who actually rewarded her for sneaky and deceitful behavior. There is a lot of depression, addiction and family infighting amongst them and we have limited contact in the past year.

My personal opinion is that she should have been in therapy immediately after finding her biomom after the final suicide attempt, but it took me a long time to convince dh. : He had a bad taste in his mouth about psychiatry because they didn't help his previous wife, obviously. Anyway, we have actually made some progress but I think there may be some truth in the idea that the anger is going to come out first.

I think depression is a real possibility, it runs in her family. Suicide has happened on both sides also, dh's brother killed himself when he was 14. From what I understand dd witnessed her mom raging, throwing things, hallucinating and various other scary things for the first several years of her life. I sometimes think maybe she doesn't think it's 'normal' for a home to be peaceful. In some ways it's like she stopped maturing and growing at 6, but in other ways she's so beyond her years.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

We think the therapist is actually on to her, but she just started with the psychiatrist and has only had 2 visits with him. It's an ongoing thing and I think we should have started much sooner than we did. She has witnessed so much and it has to have contributed to all this. DH is a reformed spanker and I'm working on reforming both of us from yelling.
I think she's buried her feelings for so long she doesn't know how to show them, and there are a lot of toxic family members who actually rewarded her for sneaky and deceitful behavior. There is a lot of depression, addiction and family infighting amongst them and we have limited contact in the past year.

My personal opinion is that she should have been in therapy immediately after finding her biomom after the final suicide attempt, but it took me a long time to convince dh. : He had a bad taste in his mouth about psychiatry because they didn't help his previous wife, obviously. Anyway, we have actually made some progress but I think there may be some truth in the idea that the anger is going to come out first.

I think depression is a real possibility, it runs in her family. Suicide has happened on both sides also, dh's brother killed himself when he was 14. From what I understand dd witnessed her mom raging, throwing things, hallucinating and various other scary things for the first several years of her life. I sometimes think maybe she doesn't think it's 'normal' for a home to be peaceful. In some ways it's like she stopped maturing and growing at 6, but in other ways she's so beyond her years.

I wonder if she has learned over the years that she is so messed up, so in need, and because of all of her 'issues', can't see any way out of it. Maybe 'normal scared kid' is so beyond her mental grasp that she acts out even more?

We are what we think we are, & what we'e been told we are. Sometimes people are never allowed to simply be afraid, scared, sad, or 'really worried'-- and have that seen as normal. Therapists can't fix sad. We can't fix grief. People can learn to manage it-- put it aside at times so we know joy. No amount of therapy and/or good theraputic drugs can change us totally.

Perhaps she has such a huge sense of herself as someone damaged that she cannot break free of it?

Does she have any great qualities, or is she simply a kid who is seen as being a 'mess' --and the kid whose mother committed suicide? Does she have a sense of herself as her self-- beyond being known as the kid whose mother committed suicide. While that is going to be a part of her all of her life and have an affect on her emotional life, she is much more than that,

[Arduinna]

It sounds like you know the answers and are just seeking support in your truth. All the things you posted make sense as to why is behaving this way. This isn't something that was created overnight and it won't be cured quickly. There will be frustrations and rewards. Just remember that you are giving her a head start on a healthy adulthood. Better she deal with this stuff now than later. YK?

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I wonder if she has learned over the years that she is so messed up, so in need, and because of all of her 'issues', can't see any way out of it. Maybe 'normal scared kid' is so beyond her mental grasp that she acts out even more?

We are what we think we are, & what we'e been told we are. Sometimes people are never allowed to simply be afraid, scared, sad, or 'really worried'-- and have that seen as normal. Therapists can't fix sad. We can't fix grief. People can learn to manage it-- put it aside at times so we know joy. No amount of therapy and/or good theraputic drugs can change us totally.

Perhaps she has such a huge sense of herself as someone damaged that she cannot break free of it?

Does she have any great qualities, or is she simply a kid who is seen as being a 'mess' --and the kid whose mother committed suicide? Does she have a sense of herself as her self-- beyond being known as the kid whose mother committed suicide. While that is going to be a part of her all of her life and have an affect on her emotional life, she is much more than that,

I don't think she's been allowed to just 'be.' She has never been told about the suicide, she just thinks mommy was sick for a while and eventually the docs couldn't save her. She was in and out of psych hospitals and made several suicide attempts. Once she drove her car off a cliff. This time she took pills and the ER doc let her sign herself out, so she went home and slipped into a coma. DH was told everything was fine, DD woke up in the middle of the night and could not wake her up, so she woke DH up and they called 911.

I thought she should be told, but the docs agreed with dh that she isn't emotionally ready. Unfortunately I think the toxic relatives did tell her, so I believe she thinks she's been lied to. Her biomom also accused DH of having an affair with me before she died, and I didn't find out about that until after dh and I started dating which was after biomom died. Of course her family is all convinced I was the other woman and I think dd is convinced of that also, though she has to know she never saw us together until well afterwards. :

Complicated much? But wait, there's more! Dh sued the ER doc for letting her go home, and the toxic family is pissed because they weren't next of kin and they tried to sue first. They are still sitting on inheritance money that was supposed to go to biomom but is not settled yet and may never get to DD and DSS (who is grown up) because toxic auntie is the executor and is mismanaging the whole thing. DSS and DD got a settlement (dd has a trust) that we suspect they wanted their hands on also. There is a lot of bad blood and we do not want them anywhere near her because they infantalize her to the point where she wants help tying her shoes when she comes home from a visit with them, in addition to the way they try to poison her mind. :

Everyone was always commenting on how brave, grown up, mature, etc., she was during the aftermath of her mom's death, and all I could think as an observer at work was she's burying it. Now I'm even more convinced that was true, so I guess I should be glad she's letting it out even if I'm on the receiving end of some rage.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

It sounds like you know the answers and are just seeking support in your truth. All the things you posted make sense as to why is behaving this way. This isn't something that was created overnight and it won't be cured quickly. There will be frustrations and rewards. Just remember that you are giving her a head start on a healthy adulthood. Better she deal with this stuff now than later. YK?

Thanks. How do you get past the frustration? I'm trying to find the good things to concentrate on, and help build her self esteem, but how exactly do you build self esteem? Is it as simple as commenting on the things she's good at and downplaying the ones she isn't? DH tells me how she used to be the peacemaker when she was little, she would get in the middle of fights between biomom and him and I wonder if she's lost her place...because we rarely argue and we just don't get to the disrespectful crockery tossing mayhem that he has described to me. I think we have an appointment this coming week, so maybe I can get some suggestions. I am just baffled as to what to say or do at this point.

[Ruthla]

Before getting mad at her for not responding, make sure she actually DID hear you!! Do you look her in the eye when talking to her? Do you make sure you have her attention first? Do you tap her on the shoulder to get her attention if she doesn't respond to verbal cues?

Or are you talking to her from across the room while she's doing something else?

All the stuff she's dealing with right now could be making it harder for her to transition from being focused on something (book, song, video game, etc) to focusing on what somebody else is saying to her. It might not ALL be passive-aggressive "ignoring you on purpose."

A big part of "not taking this stuff personally" and "not getting mad at her for age and situational appropriate behavior" is remembering what IS to be expected from her. Don't expect a 2yo to act like a 5yo, and don't expect a traumatized preteen to act like a healthy 20yo.

[fek&fuzz]

Maybe for a little while you could stop saying things that require a response - so she doesn't feel pressured. Things like "good morning", "I love you", "we're having _____ for supper, let me know you want something else", "we're getting ready eat", "if you want to come to the park we're leaving at 3" etc. So she's included but doesn't feel pressure to respond, and you don't get annoyed that she isn't answering.

Also, if you think she already knows about the suicided, maybe you should talk about it, maybe bring it up in group therapy or ask her therapist how to approach it. If she knows it happened, and no one else is talking about it she may no be speaking because if she did she might start screaming "why is no one talking about what happened to my mom?!?!?!?"

[jellop]

Wow. That girl has a lot she's carrying, on top of normal adolescence happening. I mean, with my 11 yr old DSS (lives with us, and granted, does carry some emotional baggage from his mother), and other kids around his age group, I've seen a lot of this type of behavior. It's like a rite-of-passage: the stomping around slamming things around, sometimes lying about silly (to us) things, mad for no reason and ignoring everyone - this even from kids who no problems (except the stress of adolescence, fitting in, school, peer pressure, all that fun stuff). So, it's a lot. Keep her up with the therapy. I think you're doing great with her. There's just only so much you can do - like a PP said, her problems didn't happen overnight, and they won't be fixed overnight. Some things are from her past experiences/history, and some things are normal kid things. Don't confuse the two. And , you're doing a wonderful job, and it's a rough thing you all are going through. Your DD will appreciate you when she's older.

Just wondering, why does she have any contact with the toxic relatives? Not being snarky, just curious.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

Thanks. How do you get past the frustration? I'm trying to find the good things to concentrate on, and help build her self esteem, but how exactly do you build self esteem? Is it as simple as commenting on the things she's good at and downplaying the ones she isn't? DH tells me how she used to be the peacemaker when she was little, she would get in the middle of fights between biomom and him and I wonder if she's lost her place...because we rarely argue and we just don't get to the disrespectful crockery tossing mayhem that he has described to me. I think we have an appointment this coming week, so maybe I can get some suggestions. I am just baffled as to what to say or do at this point.

Are you and dh getting counseling yourselves separate from dsd? You guys might benefit from a place that is just for you two to vent about the frustrations of dealing with the aftermath of her chaotic upbringing and strategize on how to help her as she works through this.

Give yourself the freedom to feel whatever you feel about all that is happening. It can't be fun all the time and if you have someone ( close friend, clergy person ect) you can go to to vent just to let off steam it can help get your own perspective back. I know I tend to mentally see things are worse than they are when I'm at my wits end in frustration and talking to BFF can give me some much needed perspective once I've let it out.

[UUMom]

Ah, poor little bunny. It is so complicated.

My thoughts are with *all *of you who are trying to make this better. This is going to be nothing easy. Please take care as best you can. This is all beyond my experience. I will hold all of you in my heart.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Before getting mad at her for not responding, make sure she actually DID hear you!! Do you look her in the eye when talking to her? Do you make sure you have her attention first? Do you tap her on the shoulder to get her attention if she doesn't respond to verbal cues?

Or are you talking to her from across the room while she's doing something else?

All the stuff she's dealing with right now could be making it harder for her to transition from being focused on something (book, song, video game, etc) to focusing on what somebody else is saying to her. It might not ALL be passive-aggressive "ignoring you on purpose."

A big part of "not taking this stuff personally" and "not getting mad at her for age and situational appropriate behavior" is remembering what IS to be expected from her. Don't expect a 2yo to act like a 5yo, and don't expect a traumatized preteen to act like a healthy 20yo.

That's a pretty good call. Dh calls it being in lala land. I think she just tunes the whole world out sometimes. But other times she really is just ignoring. I think we can make a concentrated effort to be sure we touch her shoulder or otherwise engage her. But this morning she was directly across the breakfast bar from me, so it was fairly obvious that she was just not answering.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by fek&fuzz

Maybe for a little while you could stop saying things that require a response - so she doesn't feel pressured. Things like "good morning", "I love you", "we're having _____ for supper, let me know you want something else", "we're getting ready eat", "if you want to come to the park we're leaving at 3" etc. So she's included but doesn't feel pressure to respond, and you don't get annoyed that she isn't answering.

Also, if you think she already knows about the suicided, maybe you should talk about it, maybe bring it up in group therapy or ask her therapist how to approach it. If she knows it happened, and no one else is talking about it she may no be speaking because if she did she might start screaming "why is no one talking about what happened to my mom?!?!?!?"

I can totally see that. I think it needs to be addressed because if it was me I'd be asking about it all the time. I would not be able to trust the adults in my life if I thought they didn't tell me the truth about it, which is why I have always thought she needed to be told. :

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by jellop

Wow. That girl has a lot she's carrying, on top of normal adolescence happening. I mean, with my 11 yr old DSS (lives with us, and granted, does carry some emotional baggage from his mother), and other kids around his age group, I've seen a lot of this type of behavior. It's like a rite-of-passage: the stomping around slamming things around, sometimes lying about silly (to us) things, mad for no reason and ignoring everyone - this even from kids who no problems (except the stress of adolescence, fitting in, school, peer pressure, all that fun stuff). So, it's a lot. Keep her up with the therapy. I think you're doing great with her. There's just only so much you can do - like a PP said, her problems didn't happen overnight, and they won't be fixed overnight. Some things are from her past experiences/history, and some things are normal kid things. Don't confuse the two. And , you're doing a wonderful job, and it's a rough thing you all are going through. Your DD will appreciate you when she's older.

Just wondering, why does she have any contact with the toxic relatives? Not being snarky, just curious.

We moved across the ocean and they won't make the effort to visit. In the past they would cause big scenes about how we kept her from them, but in reality they would not come to see her and insisted that we bring her there, but they didn't want me or ds around, and they would undermine the relationship between me and her. They have said a lot of inappropriate things to her over the years, and additionally before I was on the scene they took her to meet the family pedophile while dh was at work. This UAV molested all the aunts and bio mom, and for some reason when he was on his deathbed they felt the need to expose dd to him. They have stolen from her and her older brother and have tried to destroy any positive relationships dd might form within her family unit. DD's favorite aunt drank and drugged while babysitting her and drove w/o a license with dd in the car, also before i was on the scene. When my now DH let DD go places with the aunts and uncle, spending money he sent with her would mysteriously disappear. As he puts it, how low do you have to be to steal from a 5 or 6 year old child? The same irresponsible/dangerous aunt recently accused DSS of stealing from her and was recently un-invited from his wedding this coming summer. They're simply charming on many levels. From what I understand family feuds are a lifestyle for them and whenever there is any kind of money involved someone gets screwed. Right now the house that was part of the kids' inheritance is still not sold after over 3 years and one of the aunts is living in it rent free.

Poor kid, I don't know how she can trust anyone, when everyone who has ever claimed to love her has either abandoned her, withheld the truth, or outright lied and stolen from her. :

I like calm. DH likes calm. I don't know how to handle having people like that around, and I cannot begin to express how happy I am that they are not around us now. Even with the stomping and slamming, it is so much more peaceful now it's unreal.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Are you and dh getting counseling yourselves separate from dsd? You guys might benefit from a place that is just for you two to vent about the frustrations of dealing with the aftermath of her chaotic upbringing and strategize on how to help her as she works through this.

Give yourself the freedom to feel whatever you feel about all that is happening. It can't be fun all the time and if you have someone ( close friend, clergy person ect) you can go to to vent just to let off steam it can help get your own perspective back. I know I tend to mentally see things are worse than they are when I'm at my wits end in frustration and talking to BFF can give me some much needed perspective once I've let it out.

We ought to, but I doubt if he will go. right now he works all the time so I can keep taking her to all her appointments and be here to p/u and d/o from school.