I need HELP!!!! - Page 2

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

Since 80% of the worlds population is intact and almost 50% of those are in the USA (if you live here) your ds will not really be in the minority.

Please leave your little one intact he deserves the right to enjoy his whole body.

Like a pp said there are no down sides to being intact. It is how men were supposed to be made or they wouldnt be born with a foreskin.

Your dh will get over it and ask him if he ever set down and compaired genitals with his dad. I bet the answer will be no. And if it comes up with your other ds's then you explain to them that you thought you were doing what was right at the time but now you know it was wrong and appologize to them.

You said you have done all the research you can do. Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like?
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger?
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart?
Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later?
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used?
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on?
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.

Your dh will get over it mine has and if he dosnt then he isnt the man you thought he was. I dont mean any of the above to be snarky they are facts and I want you to know them if you dont already. I have to assume you dont know them or you wouldnt still be considering doing this to your helpless newborn.

to you and I will pray you make the right decision.

Please do pray....I am also. I have just begged for an answer. Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us.

For your questions...
Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like? I could not watch it. I felt that I needed to though..but as you can tell it's a catch 22 for someone that has circed and is not opting not to. So, I pushed play watched as much as I could then turned my head and listened because I felt I needed to...I cried for about an hour.
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger? I had NO idea.
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart? I knew they were fused, I had heard the analogy before. Are you likening the pain as well?

Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later? Nope. DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago.
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used? That is why I went to get him in the first place. That was a requirement.
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on? Again, major part of the problem.
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.

[guestmama9908]

Mama I don't know if you got a chance to read my PM or not so I will restate what I think is a very important point.

The other aspect of this to consider is that circumcision is like playing russian roulette. The outcome depends completely on who performs the procedure and how they perform it. I think that every circumcision is probably different even if performed by the same physician because every penis is different. Just because your first son has had no complications doesn't mean your second son won't. I think the guilt would be beyond imagination if you chose to circumcise knowing what you now know and he came out with a complication.

[glongley]

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?

My two intact sons are now 21 and 23. They are quite happy with having all their parts, and have thanked me for not circumcising them.

However, as they were growing up they dealt with life very differently. The older one was very easy going, never let anything bother him. The younger one was much more intense emotionally, and for a while was quite concerned with appearances and what other people thought of him - dyed his hair, wore the baggy pants, etc.

So the younger one, when he was 15, came to me and announced he wanted to get circumcised. Although I thought I had been a very open parent about sexuality issues (I am a nurse), it turns out that my son really knew very little about his foreskin or the procedure, and once he had the information, it became a non-issue. [This is a much longer story than what I will go into here.]

Every kid is going to be different in their temperament, some will be more affected by the little emotional twists and turns that come up with growing up; others, like my older son, everything just rolls right off their back.

We live in a culture that is still predominantly a circumcising culture (although we are unique in the world for this), so there may be some situations that come up where a boy might have questions, or feelings about not being circumcised. Not circumcising is the Big Unknown for a lot of parents, and all the "what ifs" float around in one's head when making this decision. However, in my experience the fact of the matter is that any kind of emotional stressor is very unlikely to occur, and if something does come up, it can be dealt with effectively with education and good parental support. No biggie, in other words, and no different from parenting a kid through any other tough situation that may come along the pike (and there are many much tougher than finding out one has all one's body parts!). And no need to do preemptive surgery to allay parents' fears of Worst Case Scenarios that are in reality not likely to happen.

I think the key is to educate them about their bodies, and about circumcision, so that they know the value of having a whole body, and that they are lucky to have escaped that particularly damaging cultural ritual.

I think dads really need to be on board with supporting their intact sons, so hopefully your husband will educate himself and covey a positive attitude to your son about his body. A father needs to be well-informed about issues surrounding circumcision in our culture and about the foreskin, so he can buy into the value of supporting the boy in being intact, not just be passive and uncommitted about the initial decision. My husband (circumcised) has never seen any good reason for doing it, and as he has learned more about circumcision he has had to do some grieving about it. He says although he really has nothing to compare to, he wishes he hadn't been circumcised, that he wishes he'd had a choice about it. My son is able to talk to him about it more freely than with me, and I think it is a good support that my son has heard from his Dad that he (my husband) wishes he weren't circumcised.

I just want to say that I am super-impressed with the protective intuition and courage that you allowed to guide you when you took your son off that circumstraint. You listened to your inner voice, and that is incredibly empowering. There are plenty of mothers who wish they had done the same, or been given the support to take that same action. You are going through a lot of turmoil, it seems, but really you should be dancing for joy and giving thanks that you and your son were spared from being dragged under by cultural insanity once more, and have chosen to respect his wholeness and your own maternal knowing. It sounds like, in truth, when you took your son off that circumstraint board, that the decision was actually already made. So take a deep breath and know that it is right.

You have found a great board for support. Hope these words give you the encouragement you are seeking.

Gillian

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri

Just reading yours now; and.....



Ummm...out of curiosity... what makes you think that if an infant boy had the capacity to understand the procedure that he wouldn't fear it as well?!!?!?!?!?!?!

I know you asked for sensitivity; but I really don't think this is logical. If you've done your research, there shouldn't even be a shred of doubt; because you could teach your son what you know about the evils of circ when the situation arises.

I know the irony of what I said. It's a fear. A VALID fear to worry that your child will not be happy with your decision EITHER WAY. Surely, you have heard of boys that were intact that felt inferior and wanted to be circed??? That is all I was saying...there is a fear on both sides of the equation. Meaning you could worry if they were unhappy with circed or uncirced. Maybe I have overanalysed it. At this point...and possibly my hormones.../post partum feelings are taking over...I am thinking about every possible solution.

As for sensitivity...I asked for it because I have literally overdone the issue in my mind. Also, any group of people that have strong beliefs in emotional topics have to be very careful how they drive their points home to individuals that might have concerns or worries...or be on the fence on said subject matter. To make one feel alienated or WRONG for asking for help can drive them away. I would not run scared...but I have seen an attack on similar sites for other items...and it resembles a pirahna attack....various character jabs...stating the obvious to you might not be the obvious to another. The bottom line is that I am a mother that is in a tough spot here. I wanted to ask for sensitivity to start with so that we could avoid that. Sometimes our emotions can make us think illogically. You could ask my husband about it and he would tell you...I have been a blubbering mess...hardly capable of making a decision like this...but still having to.

ON a side note, when people who come for help are attacked...they tend to turn back to the most common source of suppor they know. Those are typically the SAME people that traditionalize the problem.

I am not feeling attacked...just wanted you to know where I was coming from in requesting sensitivity.

[guestmama9908]

Mama I am sorry if you feel attacked in any way by the responses here. People are very passionate about protecting little boys genital integrity.

The bottom line here is that you can make a decision for your son that is irreversible. He can restore if he chooses to later in life but it will not be the same and can take years. He will undergo an incredibly painful procedure without anesthia more than likely. The only reason this is even considered okay in our society is because newborn boys do not have a voice to complain about their treatment.

Or you can choose to allow him to remain intact and not subject him to that pain. If he is unhappy with his intact status he can choose to be circumcised later in life. He will then have the option of general anesthesia and proper post-operative pain management.

I can feel how conflicted you are.

[DklovesMkandJK]

I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug

My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis )

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces )

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

Southern Region 58.5% All Regions 57.4%

http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.

[Blu Razzberri]

I have to say, I'm more than a little mad at you, on behalf of your infant; because frankly, it's looking to me like you're trying to find someone to tell you that it's ok to do it. I won't be that someone.

*Edited to add: While I was putting this post together, you replied to one of my other posts and basically said that if I say it too harshly, that you'll run off and do it because I scared you off with my meanness. It just kinda drove home that point.

You don't need an "out"...let's examine some of the things you've said, I'll give you some more information based on your 'concerns'...*

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago....

: : BOTH your other sons have complications and you're STILL trying to justify not circumcizing your newborn!?!?!?!? Perhaps you need someone to spell out the obvious? ...Ok, I'll do it....

> It's a bad idea to circumcize <

You're lucky your older boys only have adhesions as complications. It can be much much worse.

I think what you're really trying to say here, is "someone tell me to ignore what I've learned because it's easier to have three circ'd boys than to justify explaining to the other two why I left their brother intact; because I know they're more likely to protest their circumcisions than their brother is to protest his foreskin"

I can help with that part. (You can find more valuable information on my blog - which can be found on the top right side of the page). Here's an excerpt from my "circumcision" entry....

What about expecting parents who have already circumcised their first son(s)?

Some parents, even those who have newfound doubts about the ethics of circumcision, are tempted to circumcise their new baby boy if their other sons are already circumcised. They may worry that the older boys will resent them for allowing their penises to be cut while leaving their younger brother's penis intact. But continuing the cycle of genital mutilation will not make things better. The best thing for these parents to do is to leave their new son intact and explain to the older sons that when they were born, many people believed that circumcision was a harmless or even beneficial procedure. Now that more is known about circumcision, however, it is no longer routinely done and that is why their younger brother is intact.

I'm reading your recent responses; and....

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

....Apparently the caucasian circ rate here is pretty high. CDC said like 84% at one point. Anyone have any better data than that?...

Ok. Here's some better data: 100% of informed infants protest their impending circumcision. Oh wait....they have no idea what they're in for. But I bet they'd protest if they could be informed! (afterall, your son would probably protest to having it done as an adult, right?) At least as an adult, he will be able to take legal action if the surgery is botched. You can't do the same because they'll make you sign a waiver ...Wait! Waiver? What's that for?..... In case THIS happens. Then you can't hold the doctor accountable.

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...I am not concerned about myself in this decision....I am only concerned about him....

I'd be concerned about him too; because if you decide to do it; THIS is what he's in for (it's the intro page for the video. The video link is at the bottom)

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...I could not watch (the video)....I pushed play watched as much as I could....

If you can't watch the video; then you should probably question why you're going to subject his little body to something that's too painful even for you to WATCH.

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...I do not WANT to circumcize anyone....

GOOD. Then DON'T.

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

... I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin....

I'm miserable with the small boobs I have now, as an adult. I curse my mother regularily for not getting me breast implants when I was an infant so I didn't have to make the decision as an adult. Damn you mom...why??? Don't you know I had to go through highschool like this??? :

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state....

*gasp* We can't have THAT! It goes against our social attempts to look and act exactly the same!! You should probably ask the circ doctor to give him some tattoo's and body piercings while he's at it; because that's the current trend.

Listen; I know it's a bit harsh to say it like that; but seriously consider what I just said and why. Don't you want to teach your son to be original. If he conforms with the norm, he could end up in serious trouble. Doing this would be the first step towards being a conformist.

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis.....

Pffft. A woman will always find at least one small fault in her man. If that fault happens to be foreskin; it's her loss.

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call...

Well, if he's so in love with a girl that won't stay with him because he's circ'd; then I'm sure he'll be willing to endure the operation. But I'd be willing to bet that his response would be much like mine would be if I had a boyfriend who would only stay with me if I got implants... "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out!"

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us....

You're part of society; participate in undoing the stigma's one baby at a time. Start with yours....then tell your friends.



PS:

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

...That is why I went to get him in the first place. (Anesthesia) was a requirement....

Usually, they actually don't even use the anesthetic, they just say they do; and then charge you for it. But even if they do, here's something to consider: would you let them cut a piece of your labia off with a local anesthetic? I wouldn't. When I had my son, I tore and had to get stitching. They gave me a local anestetic (which hurt in iteself) and I still felt every stitch.

Oh yeah, and the anesthetic they use isn't recommended for children!! (read about this here) : How's that for irony?

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by DklovesMkandJK

I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug

My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis )

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces )

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!

Thank you for such a sweet reply. Where are you guys at on the east coast? It sounds like your brothers really didn't have an issue. I hate to say it but it seems that white girls are the most "squeamish" about it..they have kind of nasty attitudes about oral sex on uncirced guys in some cases. Again, this probably shouldn't even be crossing my mind...but I just hope that he doesn't get given a social stint because of it. It's so sad that society makes us fear this. Do your brothers ever get involved in anticirc stuff?

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.

I saw this data and it made me smile. I just wish it wasn't done in the first dang place. One of my friends said that the changes could be attributed to immigration and taht the medicaid and state funded programs stopped covering. I guess atleast that part is true since the states that were taken off of coverage cut in half in 1-2 years. WOW. That is also sad because then it goes back to being a socioecomnic issue. That perpetuates that people with money and good healthcare get circed, KWIM?

I went to my ped the other day for the newborn check and asked them about circs in our area. 95% of whites are circed in his practice...they say. Said the latino community had low rates....like 30% circed...70% not.

[Blu Razzberri]

One more thing: I realize that my responses probably appear to be an attack against you; but I want you to know they're not. Obviously you're a good mom because you're willing to shun the norm to do what's best. I think you're just waiting to hear the right thing.

My post is, however, a direct attack on that nagging "Bree VanDekamp - keeping up with the Jones's and maintaining appearances" voice in the back of your head. Read my blog; visit the links I put in the last post; plow through this information with determination. I guarantee that, come sunrise, you'll have that voice's mouth firmly duct taped on this issue.

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....

Don't ignore that instinct... wow...

...because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

Why?? It is much harder on an infant than on a consenting adult who can understnad what is happening and can request and recieve adequate pain relief.

...and literally I have been torn up and crying for days...over this. I can't handle being chastised for coming for help, KWIM? Sent with love...thank you again!

Hugs to you.... you have all the answers in your own post in your own words... listen to your instincts... reread what you have written and what you feel.

There is nothing natural or normal about strapping a baby down on a circumstraint and cutting his body... WHAT YOU HAVE DONE by reacting is normal-- protecting your son, trusting your instincts, honoring his body.

Circumcision is final.... you are not doing anything by leaving your son intact other than leaving him as he was born.

Keep us posted and let us know what further information you need.

Jessica

[Leiahs]

Here's something to read that I think you might find very helpful about your fears

Michael Copeland
American Academy of Pediatrics
141 Northwest Point Blvd.
P.O. Box 927
Elk Grove Village, IL 60009-0927

April 7, 1997


Dear Mr. Copeland:

The following quote has been called to my attention in a newspaper
article connected with the April 2 JAMA article on circumcision:

“If Dad is circumcised and junior is not,” said Michael Copeland,
spokesman for the American Academy of Pediatrics, the son “may have
some psychosocial issues in that he looks different from Dad.”

As a psychologist and the author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma, I
have done a thorough search of the literature to investigate this
belief. There is no published evidence whatsoever to support your statement.

This myth is the product of a psychological defense mechanism called
projection, the process of attributing feelings to others that belong to
oneself. It is the circumcised father who may have some psychosocial
issues if he looks different from his son. The fear of confronting these
issues in themselves motivates circumcised men to cling to the myth
that uncircumcised sons will have such issues. Furthermore, when the first
generation of American boys was circumcised, they looked different
from their uncircumcised fathers. This myth was not prevalent then because
uncircumcised men had no repressed feelings about how their penis
looked.

As part of the research for my book, I interviewed uncircumcised men
about their feelings. Their statements and other pertinent information
lead me to the following inferences regarding the decision to circumcise
for social or “matching” reasons:

The circumcision status of the father is not necessarily known or
important to a male child.

A circumcised boy who “matches” others may nevertheless have
negative feelings about being circumcised. These feelings can last a
lifetime.(1)

It is not possible to predict prior to circumcision how a boy will feel
about it later.

Even though uncircumcised men are in the minority, there is some
indication that most uncircumcised men are happy to be that way.

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about it can choose to be
circumcised, but this is rarely done. The estimated rate of adult circumcision
in the United States is 3 in 1000.(2)

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about his status may feel different
after learning more about circumcision and the important functions of
the foreskin.

The social factor is much less of an issue for boys born today because
of the lower circumcision rate (approximately 60 percent nationally,
under 40 percent in some states(3)).
These two accounts from mothers of uncircumcised sons add another
perspective to the discussion of choosing circumcision for social reasons.

“My youngest son [seven years old] is completely content at being
‘different’ from his father and [three] older brothers. When I
explained circumcision to him, his face took on a frightened expression as he
cupped his hands over his genitals and loudly declared, ‘That is
never going to happen to me!!’ “(4)

“When my eight-year-old son was five, he noticed a difference in the
appearance of the other boys’ penises. I told him that’s because
they had their foreskins cut off. He said, ‘That’s horrible.’
He’s very adamant about it.”(5)

I asked the second mother if I could talk with her son, Michael.
Because he lives in an area with a very high circumcision rate, he is the
only boy in his class who is not circumcised.

RG: How did you first learn about circumcision?

Michael: My mom told me when I was little, and she didn’t want that
to happen to me.

RG: How do you feel about her not wanting to let it happen to you?

Michael: I’m glad ‘cause it’s scary. It’s scary for a little
baby.

RG: At school, do the other kids have foreskins, or are they
circumcised?

Michael: They’re circumcised.

RG: How does it make you feel when you see that they’re circumcised?

Michael: Kind of sad, because they had it cut off.

RG: Do the other boys notice that you have a foreskin and they don’t?

Michael: Uh huh. And they say my penis looks weird.

RG: What do you think when they say that?

Michael: I say, “No it doesn’t. Yours looks weird.” Then I tell
them why there is still skin over mine and not over theirs.

RG: Then what do they say?

Michael: Some say they don’t believe it. Some just walk away.(6)

It appears that if an uncircumcised boy is given proper information, it
is possible to prevent a negative impact from extreme minority status
in a group of circumcised boys.

I hope you now understand that by perpetuating the “matching” myth,
you do a great disservice to the American public and undermine the
credibility of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The public is
understandably confused about circumcision. Your statement only serves to
increase the confusion. It would certainly help if the AAP issued a news
release to correct your mistake.

As you know, the AAP will be reporting on circumcision in the near
future. Many people who care deeply about circumcision are looking for the
AAP to report accurate, factual information about this complex issue.
If, for whatever reason, you cannot resist the temptation to express
your personal beliefs when you talk to the media about circumcision, then
perhaps someone else should take over this responsibility. Reporting to
the public about circumcision is too important to risk this mistake
being made again.


Sincerely,


Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.
Executive Director



(1) Goldman, R., Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard
Publications, 1997), 103–115.

(2) Wallerstein, E., Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy (New
York: Springer Publishing, 1980), 48.

(3) National Centre for Health Statistics, telephone conversation with
author 1997. Rate is for 1994.

(4) Romberg, R., “Circumcision Feedback” (letter to the editor),
Mensa Bulletin, May 1993.

(5) Huggins, R., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.

(6) Huggins, M., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri

One more thing: I realize that my responses probably appear to be an attack against you; but I want you to know they're not. Obviously you're a good mom because you're willing to shun the norm to do what's best. I think you're just waiting to hear the right thing.

My post is, however, a direct attack on that nagging "Bree VanDekamp - keeping up with the Jones's and maintaining appearances" voice in the back of your head. Read my blog; visit the links I put in the last post; plow through this information with determination. I guarantee that, come sunrise, you'll have that voice's mouth firmly duct taped on this issue.

Thank you for clarifying...I am probably a touch on the defensive side right now because it's such a raw area to even consider. My son will be two weeks old on Friday, I have cuddled him and known him. I have loved him already and that grows in intensity everyday. I just put him to sleep after his "midnight snack" (we are exclusive breast and attachment) and he snuggled up to me...whereas last week it was more about the necessity of nourishment and less about the comfort of being with Mom as much. Atleast I could see this gesture more. I love him so much. The intensity of those feelings is directly translated into fear and worry. I suppose my feelings are on my sleeves and raw.

I am with you...DAMN the Jones's!!! ON that front..I will be honest and say that the HOTSEAT was put into play because our insurance would not cover the procedure after this week. We checked into later circ prices in the event that we missed the window or if DS decided to be circed later. At 6 months +(which I would not do...if we didn't do it...it would only be done then if medically indicated or at his own consenting choice) the price for our local urologist was $3000 for the Dr. fee then add anesthesiologist and hospital..probably close to $6,000 to get it done. We are a middle class family....and we live modestly....being that this is the 4th boy ( my DH has a son by a previous marriage too). So, the fear of not being able to provide that option to DS was alarming and that prompted the search for support and information.

I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?

[jessjgh1]

I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?

LOl, well from another standpoint.... why not consider the , uhm, rumor/stereotpes of the 'latin lover' and 'sensual europeans'. Those would be pro-intact cultures. But the men don't run around saying "I love my penis' because it is just all normal to them.

Is that the kind of thing you are looking for??

Jessica

[ledzepplon]

I just wanted to add that my dh has a coworker whose son was circ'ed for religious reasons around age 13. While I am opposed to circ, at least this boy was given the option. It was a quick outpatient procedure.

What I'm getting at is if your ds ends up regretting his foreskin, he can easily have a circumcision later. But it should be his choice.

[TryingMyBest]

Originally Posted by ledzepplon

I just wanted to add that my dh has a coworker whose son was circ'ed for religious reasons around age 13. While I am opposed to circ, at least this boy was given the option. It was a quick outpatient procedure.

What I'm getting at is if your ds ends up regretting his foreskin, he can easily have a circumcision later. But it should be his choice.

I was under the impression that it would be like a $5000 procedure that an adult would walk away with 10-20 stitches and a tremendous amount of pain> I watched an adult circ be done online in picture sessions and thought that it looked horrendously painful. I also thought for sure that it wouldn't heal up "right"....it looked VERY frankenstein-ish..ya know?

[glongley]

TryingMyBest:

I appreciate how open and undefensive you are staying in what must seem like a difficult conversation.

Even though I completely acknowledge that your confusion and distress is out of wanting to do the right thing for him, and that you really are "trying your best," I am still scratching my head about some of the thought processes you are describing though.

For instance, it just doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't circumcise a 6+ month old unless it were medically necessary or it was his personal choice - but you WOULD consider doing that to him as a newborn - i.e. subjecting him to the pain and risks of non-medically necessary surgery, and permanently taking away his personal choice?

And you yourself admit that you are more and more intensely attached to him as time goes on, and that your intention is to practice attachment parenting - i.e. respecting your child's uniqueness and growing the bond between you as the foundation for how you parent. Yet you would consider violating his body, and his choice, his trust in this bond, and suppress the maternal urge to protect your baby from the many obvious harms of circumcision?

You want a guarantee that he will be happy with his natural penis. But on the small chance that he isn't, you'd have an irreversible surgery performed, which can never be undone if he's NOT happy with it cut and diminished.

The whole money thing also seems a little weird too. You assume that there's a high chance that he would even WANT to be circumcised, and since you're afraid you wouldn't be able to afford it later, you think you'd better do it now when you can afford it, even though there's no legitimate physical, emotional, medical, hygienic, social, or ethical rationale for it? Don't let an artificial insurance-driven deadline force you into a decision that you have so many misgivings about.

The issue is not about money, or guarantees: it's about choosing to cut off a normal, healthy, functional part of your baby's sex organ without respecting his right to it or making his own decision about it. Once you get that it's not your choice to make, then you will see that your role is to protect your son's right to wholeness, period. You are still feeling conflicted because you are letting a lot of irrelevant issues affect you. When you get that it's not your choice to make, you will no longer feel conflicted. You will feel: "No way will I let this happen to my precious baby. He is perfect the way he is, and we will raise him to love and respect himself and his body, just as we do."

Gillian

[pdx.mothernurture]

Keep in mind, an adult penis is bigger, baby penis's are TINY...one little slip and they could lop off the glans...which *has* happened.

Adults can have more complete pain relief, both for the actual procedure and narcotic medication post-op. They can also be given drugs to prevent erections while the penis is healing...no such luck for babies.

Adults can choose the exact 'style' of circumcision they want; their penises are done growing. They can chose high/low, loose/tight, frenulum/no frenulum. You have no idea how much an itty bitty baby penis is going to grow so it's not unusual for them to hack off so much skin men have pain during erections. Sometimes it even pulls up hairy skin from the testicals onto the shaft.

Adult men don't have a wound healing in a diaper, regularly bathed and confined with urine and feces.

Adults have stronger immune systems than newborns.

Adult foreskins are retractible so unlike a newborn, the entire glans won't be a red, open, raw, weepy wound.

...those are just some reasons why adult circ (on the incredibly rare chance he chooses to persue genital reduction surgery as a personal preference) is much better than forcing it on a nonconsenting, healthy infant.

Jen

[4chunut1]

Originally Posted by TryingMyBest

I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state. I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

As an intact man I want to reassure you that the chance your son will be miserable because he has a foreskin is EXTREMELY small. I consider the fact my mother kept me whole to be one of the best things she ever did for me. I was never teased in the locker room, nor shunned by girls because I had a foreskin. You're making the right decision for your son by foregoing circumcision.