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smoking and pot - Page 5

post #81 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbundantLife View Post
Some food for thought for those parents who condone marijuana smoking.

Teens and Marijuana


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Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the United States. It tends to be the first illegal drug that teens use. Nearly one in ten teens ages 12 to 17 currently used marijuana in the United States. Nearly a quarter of eighth graders reported that they had already tried it. A 1997 survey of Michigan high-school students showed that 48 percent of students surveyed had tried marijuana and 28 percent were current users.


"Adolescents are particularly at risk of adverse reactions from hallucinogen use as they enter puberty, a time of rapid physical and emotional changes. Hallucinogens are particularly dangerous because the effects are so unpredictable. They can cause violent behavior in some and suicidal tendencies in others. As memory, perception, and judgment are clouded under the influence, users are at risk of severe injuries, overdose, and death from drowning, burns, falls, and car accidents. Sometimes, hallucinogen use can uncover severe mental disorders, such as schizophrenia or severe depression." Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse
Yeah, and? Tell me something I do don't (re: teens smoking). If a kid has determined they will try MJ, they WILL try it.

Quote:
Having an open, honest relationship with your child does not mean we allow them to abuse their bodies.
I don't consider using MJ responsibly as a abusing my body.

In fact, before I had DD it helped with my chronic pain issues and prevented me from needing to take pharmaceutical narcotics, which I think are WAAAAAAAY worse for my body.
post #82 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by embers View Post
I am confused and appalled at the posts bashing my child or myself. I do not see why someone would need to stick their head into this thread to simply say they are glad that their children do not know my son or myself. That is a painful thing to say, and the intolerance behind it is ugly.
Don't stress about it. Chances are that if someone was that intolerant and belligerent to me in real life, especially when I was seeking guidance and support, I wouldn't want to be their friend anyway.
post #83 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by embers View Post
There is no "in trouble" in our home. There is no shaming, guilting, molding through fear, or really much conventional parenting methods. We are open, we are available, and we guide through love, information, modeling, etc.
There is no trouble in our home... I believe in no-yelling, talk-it-out parenting. So we agree there. I grew up like that, and I would love for my kids to know the same stability and respect that I have received. At the same time, at no point did I believe that smoking would be permitted in the house.

It doesn't mean you have failed as a parent, it simply means that your child senses that he can bend those bundouries with you, and if you are truly looking for an advice - I would consider counseling - so that he could talk, and you could figure out a way to set boundaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embers View Post
I made it clear that they can have things in their room and keep it private, and have given them each a "locker" box (safe) for their own use - no questions asked. I told them that I will honor their privacy as long as they honor the household and family; and that if I have a serious concern I will come to them, not behind their backs (modeling - I do NOT want this family to have to sneak and lie!)...
This is where we disagree tremendously...
I do not want my family to sneak in and lie, don't get me wrong... However,on one hand, you are saying you are hurt and surprised about the fact that people woudln't want their child hanging out with yours... On the other hand, how can you not see that it is NOT against your child?..

No one has attacked your child directly (unlike you have directly attacked other people on here with "screw yous" and "you suck".

They have no problems with your kid. They have problems with their own kids being in the environment where smoking pot at 13 is OK. I simply would not want another parent providing a "safe box" for my kid. How about giving a parent a call, and chatting and trying to resolve this together?

No parent has a right to give OK to my child to smoke in their house. Period. It is direspectful to the parents, and you ARE supporting that boy sneaking behind his parents' back (so much for open communication?).

Yes, he should grow up questioning authority, and standing up for what is right, but allowing smoking pot in your house is not what is going to make him a free-thinking individual, imho.

(I apologize if I have misinterpreted information, as far as allowing not your chlid to use your house as a place for "safe" smoking, that is just how I read the post).
post #84 of 177
I'm glad I read this post because I have some friends who smoke pot and it never occured to me that they might take this approach if my ds is over there when they are teenagers. I appreciate the OP taking an unconventional approach to this and I think she is being conscious about it but I still disagree with it. I think that you can allow exploration and natural consequences when the situation is not life-threatening, morally threatening or illegal. The reason I allow the freedoms that I do is that when its a big issue the answer is NO so I can be firm about it. I don't know why the OP assumes that if she tells her ds its not allowed that he's going to sneak it. I know some people who grew up with close connections and respect for their parents and if their parents said 'no' they didn't do it or if they did there was a little voice in the back of their heads that kept them from going too far. I knew many kids that felt this way growing up although I was not one of them. I didn't disregard my parents because they disallowed things, I disregarded them because I didn't have that strong of a bond and connection with them. They didn't live in my inner world. I hope to have a better relationship with my children. I do know people who don't allow this and their kids grew up and didn't try or tried it only once or twice it so it is unfair to assume that all kids who have rules will rebel. I have a friend who took the approach the OP is taking and it totally backfired. They ended up losing control of him completely and he left home at 16. He's 22 now and just starting to get his life back together after being in rehab for alcohol and MJ addiction. His mother says she literally feels ILL when she thinks that she "allowed" him to smoke pot.

I do not think that because I don't allow it a kid will never do it...but when they do it and realize the consequences that occur from doing it (whether it be getting arrested, losing your motivation in life etc etc) They will remember that I loved them enough to do whatever I could to keep them from it instead of standing by and doing nothing while they "explore."
post #85 of 177
I think you can disapprove of a behavior without disapproving of the person. I also think there's no one size fits all answer to this situation. So much depends on the family and the individual personality of the child. As parents, we know our children's personalities better than anyone, hopefully. So, we can make the best decisions based on that knowledge. Nothing is foolproof, though, and no one can predict the outcome of any decision. I'm sure there are just as many parents who forbid this or that or disapproved of this or that or didn't allow this or that as there are parents who tried not to forbid anything kicking themselves wondering what they did wrong because their child did it anyway and vice versa.
post #86 of 177
Hi,

several posts were temporarily removed from this thread for ua violations.

I have been really behind here, I promise I will very soon send all of the posts needing edits back to you to edit so I can restore them to the thread.

Keep the peace mamas
post #87 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendentalMom View Post
I know many people who grew up with pot smoking parents and guess what? they became pot heads too!
That doesn't mean every child will.
post #88 of 177
I am no help. I only have a 4 yo. But I have been thinking about these issues ever since I found out I was pregnant. I have no doubt that the teen years are going to be much much harder than anything i have seen so far. And honestly? I have no idea how I would react to what the OP is asking. I do hope I have half as much grace and ability to not overreact as the OP. Thumbs up! Whether I actually agree with your final decision (if that time actually ever comes), you have put far more thought into this as most parents

And for those who say their kids had never done x, y, or z? I grew up in a pretty relaxed home. My parents trusted me a great deal and were always frank and open. Because of this, I also knew that their opinions on issues were typically far more conservative than mine were. It did not "rub off" on any level. And, even though I knew I would not get "punished", I still did not tell my parents about sex, drinking, and drug use. I knew it would kill them and I did not want to do that to them. I knew I was going to be fine. And I was. And did not feel like I should bug my parents with it. To this day, my mom has no idea I have ever done some of the things I experimented with in HS.
post #89 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by trmpetplaya View Post

Cannabis has been known to be in a class by itself as far as what type of drug it is for several decades. People used to consider it a narcotic back in the 30s and 40s. Now we know it's definitely not one. It doesn't act like one. Nor does it act like a hallucinogen. That's why it usually merits its own chapter in books about the effects of different types of drugs.
Well the pot you smoke must be WAY different than what I smoked the last time I did it. I took one hit of a joint and had a full on halluncination. And it was home grown by the people who provided it - not laced with anything. IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be. I took one hit of the stuff. There is NO WAY I would be cool with a child obtaining the high that I had. I'm a grown adult and it was intense for me to handle.
post #90 of 177
I've never heard of anyone hallucinating on marijauna.
post #91 of 177
The problem I see is there is no actual parenting going on in this situation.

Abdicating the responsibility for a choice that could have long term consequences on many levels – physical, emotional, legal,financial – to a 13 year old is not parenting.

The parent is the adult. They have a had a lifetime to gain experience and knowledge. There is no way a 13 year old can have the same breadth of experience that an adult has had. Setting boundaries and expectations is not shaming or making a kid be “in trouble”.

Smoking pot to me is a rather benign issue. I wouldn’t get that up in arms about it BUT I would not advocate, encourage or suggest its use to any 13 year old and if asked by that child I would flat out say “no you are not mature enough to appreciate the consequences that go with smoking pot”

-Maggie
post #92 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendentalMom View Post
Well the pot you smoke must be WAY different than what I smoked the last time I did it. I took one hit of a joint and had a full on halluncination. And it was home grown by the people who provided it - not laced with anything. IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be. I took one hit of the stuff. There is NO WAY I would be cool with a child obtaining the high that I had. I'm a grown adult and it was intense for me to handle.
I don't smoke pot My post that you quoted was purely book-learned knowledge so please refrain from making assumptions about my lifestyle. Thanks.

I don't know where you're getting your information from about the "stronger and way more intense" bit. It sounds an awful lot like the propaganda that's been floating around lately though. The strongest cannabis available in the US isn't even strong enough to be used as medicine in the countries where it's legal. You see, unlike most drugs, cannabis is actually *safer* when it's stronger because then it takes a lower dose and there is less exposure to smoke. It's also non-toxic so there's no risk of overdose due to strength.

Some people can react to cannabis as though it's a hallucinogen, but that doesn't mean that it is one. It's quite rare that someone hallucinates on cannabis and it doesn't function in the body the same way a drug that's classified as a hallucinogen does even when someone does have that reaction to it.

It's never been classified as a hallucinogen in any recent book I've ever read... can you cite anything that shows that cannabis *is* a hallucinogen other than your personal anecdotal evidence? I'd love to see it! (not snarky - I'm very curious about where you're getting your info)

love and peace.
post #93 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by trmpetplaya View Post
I don't smoke pot anymore My post that you quoted was purely book-learned knowledge so please refrain from making assumptions about my lifestyle. Thanks.

I don't know where you're getting your information from about the "stronger and way more intense" bit. It sounds an awful lot like the propaganda that's been floating around lately though. The strongest cannabis available in the US isn't even strong enough to be used as medicine in the countries where it's legal. You see, unlike most drugs, cannabis is actually *safer* when it's stronger because then it takes a lower dose and there is less exposure to smoke. It's also non-toxic so there's no risk of overdose due to strength.

Some people can react to cannabis as though it's a hallucinogen, but that doesn't mean that it is one. It's quite rare that someone hallucinates on cannabis and it doesn't function in the body the same way a drug that's classified as a hallucinogen does even when someone does have that reaction to it.

It's never been classified as a hallucinogen in any recent book I've ever read... can you cite anything that shows that cannabis *is* a hallucinogen other than your personal anecdotal evidence? I'd love to see it! (not snarky - I'm very curious about where you're getting your info)

love and peace.
IMO anecdotal evidence outweighs "book learned" evidence. If we are going by books, you will find evidence that says pot is extremely harmful, you will also find evidence that says it is good for you.

When I smoked pot in high school and college I was able to take several hits, have a buzz and still function relatively normally. My parents could only tell I was stoned once. I have only smoked pot twice in the last 10 years and both times were recent. Both times I had ONE HIT thinking I could just take a small toke and be a little stoned. One time I was at home and felt completely incapacitated, unable to speak and felt outside my body. I would try to move my arm and nothing would happen. It was some seriously strong stuff. The next time I was at a friends house. They were passing joints around and I thought "what the hell, it can't be as strong as that other stuff..." This time I had what I would call hallucination. I don't know if I was "technically" or scientifically hallucinating but it felt like the way I felt after I had taken LSD. Walls moving. The floor going wavy. Peoples voices slowing down. Time "freezing" occaisionally. I got in my car and could not drive. Called and woke up a friend to take me home. Had to take off all clothes when I got home because it felt like they were burning my skin. I could not go to sleep until I "came down."

There is also just the fact that both times I smoked recently I felt AWFUL the next day. Funky mood, somewhat depressed & irritable with my kids. I don't need a study to prove anything to me. Its like if you eat a bunch of crappy food, you feel lousy afterwards. I smoke pot, I feel depressed and out of it the next day.

I have talked to others who have had similar experiences after smoking pot. Whether or not they are technically hallucinating, the experience was close enough. I do not think a 12 year old is in any way prepared to have an experience like I did.
post #94 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendentalMom View Post
IMO anecdotal evidence outweighs "book learned" evidence. If we are going by books, you will find evidence that says pot is extremely harmful, you will also find evidence that says it is good for you. That is why book evidence doesn't mean as much to me as my experience.
Fascinating... considering you have no idea what books I've read A good number of them are based off many many people's personal experiences which means much more to me than just *your* personal experience. I can definitely see how *your* experience would mean more to *you*, but honestly... the science just doesn't back you up Nor does the anecdotal evidence from anyone I personally know and I live in a state where it's extremely easy to get very potent medicinal strains since it's legal for medicinal purposes here.

I've spent years reading both books that condone and condemn drug use and administered a scientific survey on drug use as well. I would like to know if your information comes from more than just your experience because I enjoy learning about drugs and their effects. Your experience is a very rare one which typically indicates over-dosage.

In all my studying I have never found any well-referenced book that said that cannabis was extremely harmful. Which book were you referring to?

love and peace.
post #95 of 177
Ok, there are plenty of STUDIES out there that say marijuana is harmful. I'm sure if I quote the studies from JAMA, NIDS, UW, New Scientist etc etc you will tell me why they are biased and wrong. But there are plenty out there that say it is harmful just as there are plenty that say that its not. I don't think either side is reliable as I think both sides have an agenda. It is hard to find accurate data on this subject as it is on the issue of vaccines. I also don't care whether you think my experience has any basis in science. It is what I experienced. I am biased due to my experience just as you are biased because you clearly have an agenda that you want to prove.

I know my experience is not everyone's as the people I smoked with didn't feel as incapacitated as I was. But I have told at least 10 pot smokers my experience and everyone of them agreed "yeah, pot is stronger these days than it used to be." I also had some friends who had a party recently and were smoking some strong pot and one of the guys at the party freaked out and wandered off into the woods. He ended up at the neighbors house telling them he was MLK jr. NO JOKE! Supposedly this has happened to him before....maybe it is something to do with body chemistry?
post #96 of 177
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post #97 of 177
embers -Below, find a recent article concerning the particular vulnerability of children to nicotine addiction.

Cigarette companies have long known the importance of getting young children to smoke. It was harder to turn older teens and adults into smokers. The difference was assumed to reside in reasoning ability - older teens weighing future consequences in their decision making, younger teens living in the here-and-now. The article below adds another dimension to explain why young teens are "prime" for cigarette addiction.

"Cigarette girls" (beautiful teenage girls dressed scantily) handed out sample packs of cigarettes to teens at concerts and teen clubs, comic strip characters appeared in ads for Camel, Newport and Salem ran ads that showed groups of healthy, happy teens engaging in some sport and holding cigarettes. Cigarette companies were made to stop their direct advertising to teens. Some here may be too young to remember when they did.
_________________________

THE NEW YORK TIMES

July 31, 2007

Nicotine Addiction Is Quick in Youths, Research Finds

By NICHOLAS BAKALAR
A young cigarette smoker can begin to feel powerful desires for nicotine within two days of first inhaling, a new study has found, and about half of children who become addicted report symptoms of dependence by the time they are smoking only seven cigarettes a month.

“The importance of this study is that it contradicts what has been the accepted wisdom for many decades,” said Dr. Joseph R. DiFranza, the lead author, “which is that people had to smoke at least five cigarettes a day over a long period of time to risk becoming addicted to nicotine. Now, we know that children can be addicted very quickly.” Dr. DiFranza is a professor of family medicine at the University of Massachusetts.

The researchers recruited 1,246 sixth-grade volunteers in public schools in Massachusetts, interviewing them 11 times over a four-year period. They also took saliva samples to determine blood levels of nicotine and link them to addictive behavior. At some time during the four years almost a third of the children puffed on a cigarette, more than 17 percent inhaled, and about 7.5 percent used tobacco daily.

Since inhaling is required for sufficient drug delivery to cause dependence, the researchers limited their analysis, published in the July issue of The Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, to the 217 inhalers in the group. Their average age when they first inhaled was 12.8 years. Of these, almost 60 percent had lost some control over their smoking, and 38 percent developed tobacco dependence as defined by the widely used diagnostic manual published by the World Health Organization.

In the 10 percent of children who were most susceptible, cravings began within two days of the first inhalation, and saliva analysis showed that being dependent did not require high blood levels of nicotine throughout the day. In some cases dependence could be diagnosed as early as 13 days after the first smoking episode.

For most inhalers, daily smoking was not required to cause withdrawal symptoms. More than 70 percent had cravings that were difficult to control before they were smoking every day. The biochemical analyses confirmed this: the symptoms of dependence began mostly at the lowest levels of nicotine intake.

“We know very little about the natural history of dependence,” said Denise B. Kandel, a professor of sociomedical sciences at Columbia and a widely published addiction researcher who was not involved in the study. “This is really the first study that addresses the issue. Its strength is that DiFranza has followed a community sample of adolescents and interviewed them every three months, which is very difficult to do.

“On the other hand,” she continued, “his definition of dependence is based on single symptoms, which may be open to question.”

The definition of tobacco addiction is controversial, but the scientists used widely accepted criteria to diagnose dependence and a well-validated questionnaire to determine the extent to which smokers had allowed the habit to dictate their behavior.

The researchers write that it may seem implausible that intermittent smoking could provide relief from withdrawal symptoms. But in fact a single dose of nicotine has effects on the brain that can last as long as a month, and the nicotine obtained from just one or two puffs on a cigarette will occupy half of the brain’s nicotinic receptors, the molecules specifically sought by nicotine in tobacco addiction.

The authors acknowledge that some of their data is retrospective and comes from self-reports, which can be unreliable, and that it is not possible to draw conclusions about other populations from their sample. In addition, they did not consider the roles of puberty, alcohol and other drug use. But the study has considerable strengths in measuring frequency and duration of smoking and in collecting exposure data by biochemical analysis as well as by repeated interviews.
“People used to think that long-term heavy use caused addiction,” Dr. DiFranza said. “Now, we know it’s the other way around: addiction is what causes long-term heavy use.”
post #98 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendentalMom View Post
... IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be.
The pot is stronger. A University of Mississippi project has been keeping figures on THC strength since the mid 1970's, garnered from drug seizure samples. According to the latest data, the average amount of THC in seized samples has reached 8.5 percent. This compares to an average of just under 4 percent reported in 1983 and represents more than a doubling in the potency of the drug since that time (it was less than 1 percent in 1974).


And, hallucinations with THC are not "rare". It's not a very common reaction, but reporting of hallucinations has increased in line with the rise in THC levels.

The number of teens reporting MJ use has not change much in the last decade. But, the subset seeking drug rehab for addiction to MJ has increased dramatically. It begs the question, "Is the increase in THC levels leading to a greater percentiage of users getting Hooked?"
post #99 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I knew I was going to be fine. And I was.
I have to jump in here...

As I said before - for every adult who did it regardless of their parents values, there is another adult who chose not to do it. When I was 17 I met a girl who asked me if I smoked or ever got drunk, and when I replied "no", she told me "oh, that's ok, you'll experience it soon, everyone goes through it!".

Um, no. NOT EVERYONE goes through it. And I am certain that if my parenting skills are anywhere near my parents' - they will listen to my advice just like I listened to them.

Another point I wanted to make, is that teenagers in particular have the idea of invincibility, they have a belief that "this could never happen to me". Just like you are describing. And they will be fine in many case, even when they engage in dangerous behavior (be it smoking or something else). However, when looking at facts, they are much mroe likely "to be fine" if they stay away from "those things". And I would like to create an enviroment in this house where they don't just blindly follow the rules in this house, but truly understand where those rules are coming from.
post #100 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
I have to jump in here...

As I said before - for every adult who did it regardless of their parents values, there is another adult who chose not to do it. When I was 17 I met a girl who asked me if I smoked or ever got drunk, and when I replied "no", she told me "oh, that's ok, you'll experience it soon, everyone goes through it!".

Um, no. NOT EVERYONE goes through it. And I am certain that if my parenting skills are anywhere near my parents' - they will listen to my advice just like I listened to them.

Another point I wanted to make, is that teenagers in particular have the idea of invincibility, they have a belief that "this could never happen to me". Just like you are describing. And they will be fine in many case, even when they engage in dangerous behavior (be it smoking or something else). However, when looking at facts, they are much mroe likely "to be fine" if they stay away from "those things". And I would like to create an enviroment in this house where they don't just blindly follow the rules in this house, but truly understand where those rules are coming from.
That was not my point. I did listen to my parents and respected their opinion greatly. I knew they had more experience than I did. I listened to their concerns and read the books they suggested. The thing is, I also had a mind and was able to look at the same info, read the same books, consider the same concerns and come up with a different conclusion. Now I will admit, I was not 13 yo when i took it upon myself to go in a different direction. I was a pretty immature 13 yo and felt I still needed to rely on my parents and their opinions at that age. But it was not long after that I did grow into the critical thinking skills that have remained largely unchanged ever since. I respected my parents opinions and took them into consideration but also disagreed. I do not think that "better parenting" would have changed things. In fact, I am grateful that they did not try to force their opinions on me, because as has been said here again and again, I would have done it anyway and likely in a much less safe or more dramatic way in opposition.

I do not buy that there is some magic age when children/teens suddenly should be allowed to make their own decisions. I know 40 yos that have less critical thinking skills than your average 12 yo. Some children will land on the same side of issues as their parents. Of course, their parents influence them. So did mine. Greatly. But whether they will do exactly as their parents wish they would really has nothing to do with "quality parenting", whatever that is.

Also, while I do get the idea that teens are suppose to be reckless and feel invincible, that also just does not hold true for all teens. I believe that open communication about risks, the willingness for parents to help if need be, and the chance for teens to make their own decisions while still under the safety net of the home can grow a responsible adult. I can tell you that I did not feel "invisible". I was a very careful teen. I did side with my parents on the dangers of drunk driving, unprotected sex, etc...... I chose not to tell them what i was up to, not because I thought they would overreact ,but I thought it would make them feel bad. I felt I had a handle on things and I did. If I got into a place where I felt I was in "trouble" or needed help, I would not have hesitated to come to them.

What do you suggest the OP do? Freak out and tell them NO NO NO? Are you suggesting that her parenting must be flawed for her child to talk to her about it? If so, I wholeheartedly disagree. It would be a great thing if every child felt they could bounce their thoughts off of their parents. Most kids will do something illegal before they leave the house. Even the "really good" kids with "good" parents. Most will hide this from their parents. How does that help?

I believe it is very dangerous thinking to assume that if a parent is a "good parent" a child will never do anything the parents does not want them to. This does not leave any room for deciding what the parent will do if the "unthinkable" happens and their kid wants to talk about the joint they already smoked.
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