"What's wrong with drugs?" - Page 2

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by thismama

Um, coz they are in unbelievable pain perhaps?!?!?

this is an interesting discussion for me. I think that pain is relative and different for everyone. I think the "unbelievable pain" that I experienced was tolerable because I was in my own home and I was surrounded by people who were supportive and not encouraging me to take pain meds.
not to say this isn't possible in a hospital but the way hospitals are set up and run is not conducive to tolerating the pain of labor.

most hospitals (in this area just about all of them) are spending more money on new technology and machinery and not enough on training and staff. If women were welcomed at a hospital (although this is probably more likely to occur in a birth center) with warmth and respect by people who view birth as a normal and natural process and understand the hormonal, emotional and spiritual aspects of birth and thereby allow women to birth as they choose, then maybe pain meds would not be as necessary.

The pain is bad but add to that all of the disrespect and humiliation women experience compounded by the cold and informal atmosphere that immediately demands them to use their neo-cortex and gets their adrenaline pumping, it's amazing anyone can get through it without pain killers.

So yes, I see why some women need an epidural in the hospital but ideally we need to have a space that will allow women to birth in comfort and safety with excellent support and if they did have this then a lot less epidurals would be given.

[applejuice]

ITA, Jimibell.

My first two labors were long and posterior, but I managed to get through them at home. I credit the education, health and exercise I assessed for myself and my caregivers.

[AlpineMama]

I also agree with that. It makes such a difference the people you're surrounded by. I'm lucky in that our L&D dept is really wonderful. I still didn't want to give birth there but most of the nurses and staff are warm and sweet and knowledgeable. The few bad apples are still enough to make your body tense up though... But the quality and attitude of the staff makes all the difference in the world. At home you can choose who to invite and who not to, that's why I think it'd be the best option. In a hospital it's the luck of the draw.

[applejuice]

At home, the mother is queen of her domain.

In the hospital, the mother is a patient.

Big difference in approach to the advent of birth.

[ksera05]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Dr. Bertil Jacobson did this report. It was written about in Omni Magazine in 1988. Do you think this may explain the psychedelic generation of the 1960s after their mothers were given amnesiacs during labor in the 1840s and 1950s? The study also said that babies born by forceps would use mechanical means to commit suicide and babies with cord problems would use suffocation methods.

That particular study only mentions the opiates = future drug addictions as a side note. Then, if you read one of the other links you gave, it states:

Dr. Bertil Jacobson, who was to report his findings today at the Third International Congress on Pre- and Perinatal Psychology, noted that only a tiny percentage of mothers given barbiturates or opiates at birth during the period studied produced babies who later became addicts.

Definitely doesn't seem like a hard and fast rule.

[hubris]

Originally Posted by thismama

Um, coz they are in unbelievable pain perhaps?!?!?

Ah, but how horrible is it that the ONLY way most people know to deal with pain is through pharmacology?

How many OBs honestly talk to their clients about reducing fear of birth? How many of them talk about the relationship of fear to pain? How many discuss - honestly discuss in depth - use of massage, changing position, different relaxation techniques, visualization, laboring in water, etc etc etc?

Has anybody ever heard an OB tell a client that being able to feel the physical sensations of birth might be a GOOD thing? Do they talk about the normal feedback loop of birth, the body's own defenses against discomfort, the way that we can use pain/discomfort to guide what we do?

All I ever hear from mainstream sources is pain = bad = medicate the dickens out of yourself.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by Jimibell

this is an interesting discussion for me. I think that pain is relative and different for everyone. I think the "unbelievable pain" that I experienced was tolerable because I was in my own home and I was surrounded by people who were supportive and not encouraging me to take pain meds.

Sure, and I absolutely agree with that. It was *your* experience, not everyone's, and I think it translates for a lot of women.

However, homebirth does not take away the pain or even diminish it to levels comparable to most pain we would experience, for many women.

I find it a bit patronizing/negating of that reality when choosing pain relief for what is often excruciating is compared to not cutting down on caffeine or alcohol intake during pregnancy.

I notice this a fair bit in the natural birthing community. Contractions called 'rushes' or freaking 'pillowsqueezes!' OMG!! It's pain, man. Maybe not for everyone, but for a good many of us. And while birthing at home with decent attendants can make a *world* of difference in how we are able to cope with that pain, it's still for many of us an incredible amount of pain.

[hapersmion]

Originally Posted by etoilech

Um, yeah I'd like to see some facts regarding this. I support natural childbirth (I am a trainee midwife), but I have never come across any information regarding a correlation to abusing drugs as an adult. :

I seem to recall reading something like this in the Bradley book. My friend has it right now, so I can't check, but in the workbook there's an opinion piece by Jay Hathaway, AAHCC, saying: "A news report (July 11, 1987, Associated Press) linked teen-age drug addiction to the use of childbirth drugs by their mothers. Other reports have linked adolescent suicide to birth events."

Now, I haven't looked at the studies in question personally to see if they were believable, but bryonyvaughn wasn't just making it up. Really, whether or not it's true, there are plenty more reasons to avoid unnecessary epidurals (wasn't there a recent study linking epidurals with problems breastfeeding? Or maybe that was Pitocin, or both...). Sometimes someone is going to end up sincerely needing one, but that doesn't mean that everyone should get one automatically. And I agree very much with Jimibell that staying in a safe environment is the best way to avoid needing an epidural. I know that was the last thing on my mind, even during transition and back labor, because it just wasn't available. I didn't have to spend any mental energy on resisting the temptation of drugs (not that I personally find them at all tempting, yuck, needle in spine), so I could focus on better ways of relieving my pain. Like pushing that baby out so I could be done.

hapersmion

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by thismama

Sure, and I absolutely agree with that. It was *your* experience, not everyone's, and I think it translates for a lot of women.

However, homebirth does not take away the pain or even diminish it to levels comparable to most pain we would experience, for many women.

I find it a bit patronizing/negating of that reality when choosing pain relief for what is often excruciating is compared to not cutting down on caffeine or alcohol intake during pregnancy.

I notice this a fair bit in the natural birthing community. Contractions called 'rushes' or freaking 'pillowsqueezes!' OMG!! It's pain, man. Maybe not for everyone, but for a good many of us. And while birthing at home with decent attendants can make a *world* of difference in how we are able to cope with that pain, it's still for many of us an incredible amount of pain.

I am not talking about the pain going away, I am talking about the reality that epidurals, which come with MANY risks (that most women are not fully informed of, but that's another discussion), would not be as common if women were able to birth in peace. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt like a mother-f.......I personally would never say that!! I just mean that it can be tolerable under the right circumstances (and in fact I agree that it can be intolerable under the wrong circumstances).

As to comparing it to not taking in alcohol, caffeine, tylenol, etc during pregnancy; my take on it is that the doctors will take time (and all the books and strangers) to explain the risks of drinking, etc and quite a big deal is made out of it but an epidural is seen as not only acceptable but is strongly encouraged (in most hospitals).....this is the hypocrisy. They're saying basically that if you need a drink or have a headache or worse yet, a toothache, during pregnancy, you should suffer for your baby.....but once you're in labor it is OK to pulse drugs through your and your baby's bodies.

[thismama]

It can be tolerable under the right circumstances *for most women*.

I completely agree with spreading information about the risks of epidurals and pain relief, and about the options for getting assistance to deal with and minimize the pain in natural ways.

I just cringe sometimes because I see on the one hand epis and the 'agony' of labour pushed on women, and then on the other hand the actual real pain many women experience is minimized.

I support informed *choice* for women re: pain relief in childbirth. I support sharing information about options other than medical pain relief, but I also really think acknowledgement is essential that the pain is real and intense for many of us, and that it is valid and not necessarily an indication of ignorance to choose medical pain relief.

Both things.

[the_lissa]

Definitely.

My first was a home birth- hospital transfer, and I got an epidural because of exhaustion.

My second was a home birth, and it was way more painful than my first. It really, really hurt, but I had no desire at all for an epidural.

[the_lissa]

Good point thismama.

I am tired of my pain being minimized or brought on myself because of fear.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

Good point thismama.

I am tired of my pain being minimized or brought on myself because of fear.

I know!! That drives me nuts!!

I had a *lot* of pain in birth, like so much pain i couldn't believe it, didn't know that level of pain was possible. I had great birth attendants who stayed with high-maintenance-me through the whole thing.

But I felt set up by the books I'd read in pregnancy, where I thought if I was enlightened enough or fearless enough I would not have pain. What a crock of BS!! For me, anyway.

I *chose* a drug free birth anyway because I did have fabulous supports and because... I don't know, maybe I'm an adrenaline junkie or something.

But I equally could have chosen an epidural. I think if you don't 100% WANT to go through natural labour, weighing the risks and benefits of an epi or other medical pain relief is a very valid, and can be a highly informed, choice.

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by thismama

It can be tolerable under the right circumstances *for most women*.

I completely agree with spreading information about the risks of epidurals and pain relief, and about the options for getting assistance to deal with and minimize the pain in natural ways.

I just cringe sometimes because I see on the one hand epis and the 'agony' of labour pushed on women, and then on the other hand the actual real pain many women experience is minimized.

I support informed *choice* for women re: pain relief in childbirth. I support sharing information about options other than medical pain relief, but I also really think acknowledgement is essential that the pain is real and intense for many of us, and that it is valid and not necessarily an indication of ignorance to choose medical pain relief.

Both things.

well, I don't know if I have seen it minimized.....not that it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen that myself. I for one, will not mince words when a pregnant woman asks me. And I was shocked by the amount of pain I had with my first!!!! I agree it is unfair for people to be misleading about the pain. But it is also hard to say because many times people are speaking about their experience and that is all they have to go on so they may not be trying to be misleading but maybe it just didn't hurt that much to them.......I don't know because it was extremely painful for me and it gave me confidence as a mom to have borne the pain.

And I think also it is hard to say now what "most women" will experience because most women are never given the chance.....yes, if all women were allowed to labor in ideal circumstances then maybe a small percentage of them would still feel the need for some pain meds.....but that is sort of a mute point right now. The discussion people should be having is how do we make it so that conditions are improved in the hospitals and birth centers.

[thismama]

I have definitely seen it minimized or blamed on a bad 'attitude.' Ina May Gaskin, who I love in many ways, is very guilty of that. And I've seen it perpetuated in other books, and on these here very discussion boards.

[emdeecee_sierra]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

I'd glance at the pertinent chapter(s) of The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth and give a short summary. Then give her the book title in case she's interested in studies or more info.

Great idea! I Henci Goer!

Originally Posted by applejuice

Dr. Bertil Jacobson did this report. It was written about in Omni Magazine in 1988. Do you think this may explain the psychedelic generation of the 1960s after their mothers were given amnesiacs during labor in the 1840s and 1950s? The study also said that babies born by forceps would use mechanical means to commit suicide and babies with cord problems would use suffocation methods.

See also:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-3834823.html

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/317/7169/1346

I have posted this before on MDC and been flamed by mothers who said I was adding to their guilt by stating that they were now being told their children were destined to be drug addicts because of the drugs they took during labor. I am only trying to add to your knowledge and information. Will your OB tell you about this? Your anesthesiologist? We live in a culture that believes chemicals will solve our problem.

(bolding mine) ITA Applejuice!

Originally Posted by Jimibell

this is an interesting discussion for me. I think that pain is relative and different for everyone. I think the "unbelievable pain" that I experienced was tolerable because I was in my own home and I was surrounded by people who were supportive and not encouraging me to take pain meds.
not to say this isn't possible in a hospital but the way hospitals are set up and run is not conducive to tolerating the pain of labor.

most hospitals (in this area just about all of them) are spending more money on new technology and machinery and not enough on training and staff. If women were welcomed at a hospital (although this is probably more likely to occur in a birth center) with warmth and respect by people who view birth as a normal and natural process and understand the hormonal, emotional and spiritual aspects of birth and thereby allow women to birth as they choose, then maybe pain meds would not be as necessary.

The pain is bad but add to that all of the disrespect and humiliation women experience compounded by the cold and informal atmosphere that immediately demands them to use their neo-cortex and gets their adrenaline pumping, it's amazing anyone can get through it without pain killers.

So yes, I see why some women need an epidural in the hospital but ideally we need to have a space that will allow women to birth in comfort and safety with excellent support and if they did have this then a lot less epidurals would be given.

(bolding mine) ITA with this.

OP, I don't see why you would have to defend yourself or walk on eggshells regarding your choice to be drug-free. Oh, and : : congratulations on your new baby and for going that long in labor naturally!! I don't see any problem with you mentioning your pride in that accomplishment. You are spreading the word that it can be done! After my 2nd was born, I was so amazed at the difference between c-section (my first) and normal birth that I mentioned it every time I was responding to the 'how are you feeling/doing' question. No, not to make those who had or chose c-sec feel bad, I was simply sharing my experience. Honestly, if a woman who has had a birth is asking you that, then, frankly, she should know better. If she hasn't had a birth and is asking out of honest curiosity, then I like Romana9+2's suggestion above. Drugs DO have risks. Just a fact. If it were me, if I felt like explaining or defending my choice, then I'd just say something simple like that- "Drugs have a lot of risks; I preferred to have a natural birth."

Enjoy your babymoon!!!

[emdeecee_sierra]

Personally, I found the 'hype' about 'all the pain' associated with childbirth to be vastly overrated. For me, it wasn't pain until I was at the hospital and virtually strapped to the bed and under their evil ministrations and headgames. The times I labored and labored and birthed at home, at no point could I accurately describe what I experienced as pain. Yes, it was magnificently intense, but never pain. When I was in very early labor with my first, I had someone tell me, "You know, I'm a weenie, and it really wasn't all that bad." Her comment gave me an extra boost of confidence and curiosity about the whole process- how bad can it be? What of all this 'pain' I hear about? Yet here is this tiny woman telling me it isn't too bad....

I am in no way diminishing what other women say they experienced. I guess I'm just trying to say that we all have different experiences. We all use different vocabulary to describe what we experienced. But ultimately, I guess I'm weary of our society perpetuating the idea that labor and birth are this agonizing torture. And often that message is lumped in with "... that you cannot possibly survive without pharmaceutical assistance."

[MyBoysBlue]

Who was it that wrote about the fright and flight instinct, taking blood from the uterus to help in the flight. I know it was before Ina May Gaskin. I remember it was a male doctor.

[glendora]

Originally Posted by thismama

I have definitely seen it minimized or blamed on a bad 'attitude.' Ina May Gaskin, who I love in many ways, is very guilty of that. And I've seen it perpetuated in other books, and on these here very discussion boards.

Yup. It's also REALLY thick in Grantly Dick-Reads stuff, with his whispy little British woman. "It wasn't meant to hurt, was it, doctor?" Yeah, right.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by glendora

Yup. It's also REALLY thick in Grantly Dick-Reads stuff, with his whispy little British woman. "It wasn't meant to hurt, was it, doctor?" Yeah, right.

Ha! Yeah, I remember that. He said she had never heard of the concept of pain in birth, and that is why she experienced none. So then why is that the first question she asks afterward?

I call BS.