Why do people circumcise preemies? - Page 2

[CallMeMommy]

I just typed a note the other day on a 9-month-old preemie whose parents want him circumised. So now he's having his preop exam at 11 months and will get circumcised at a year. : : and a bunch of other emotions smilies can't express for me.

[kblackstone444]

Originally Posted by MelKnee

When I was in the NICU with my 1st ds, there was a very tiny, very sick baby in the next warmer. One day, I overheard his father ask a nurse when the baby could be circed. She stood there flabbergasted and finally ended up saying, "Maybe when he isn't fighting for his life".:

Good for her!

Originally Posted by eepster

If circ is just what seem normal to you than being healthy enough to get circ'd means being healthy enough to do what all the other normal boys did.

We need to show people that circ is not normal. Then it will stop being a momment of normalicy.

Common is not the same as normal.

Unfortunately, this probably would have been my thinking if my son had been a preemie. I knew nothing about circumscision except "that's what you do when you have a baby boy" and I probably would have been excited that he was healthy enough to be circumscised. Ugh.

But the good news is, I've been educated from lurking in this forum, so at any future bby boy who comes into contact with me will have educated parents through me. Maybe they won't think it's "normal".

[tiffer23]

There's a huge circ debate on another board I'm a member of. It just makes me sick. Someone had a preemie and circumcised him at 2 months old. If it's been 2 months and there aren't any problems, why the hell circumcise him at all? It's insane. Then I get all jumped on because I keep making comments about other people's comments. *sigh* Pardon me for not wanting little boys to be mutilated.

[lml41981]

Originally Posted by eepster

If circ is just what seem normal to you than being healthy enough to get circ'd means being healthy enough to do what all the other normal boys did.

We need to show people that circ is not normal. Then it will stop being a momment of normalicy.

Common is not the same as normal.

I dunno if this was in response to what I wrote or not, but if so... I would feel the same if it were *any* surgical procedure - not just circ.

I'd never ask when my hypothetical future son could be circumcised, though, even if what I meant was, "When can I take him home?"

[MilkTrance]

Originally Posted by tiffer23

There's a huge circ debate on another board I'm a member of. It just makes me sick. Someone had a preemie and circumcised him at 2 months old. If it's been 2 months and there aren't any problems, why the hell circumcise him at all? It's insane. Then I get all jumped on because I keep making comments about other people's comments. *sigh* Pardon me for not wanting little boys to be mutilated.

Subjective morality is fun for everyone!

Oh wait, I mean... it's fun for some people if they like it, and if others don't, that's okay too.

: :

On a more serious note, I'm really glad people like you are making comments. That's how change starts, right?

[yokosmile]

As vile as I think it is to put a preemie through unnecessary surgery, I do believe that many mothers simply don't know better. They're fed lies by doctors, by the media, they're told "leave it up to the one with the penis" not realizing that they're the ones with intact foreskins.

There's just a lack of education. There's often horror when there's such ignorance running rampant. And with the potential revision of the AAP's statement, I feel sicker than ever. I just want to leave this country and escape this pervasive madness... It seems this battle can't be won.

[LoveChild421]

Does anyone have any links to articles or research I can show my friend, who is due to have a C-section at 36 weeks? She plans on circing but is at least open to what I have to say about it so I think if I can show her the risks- too much blood loss, going into shock, etc are higher since her son will be a preemie, then maybe she will reconsider.

If my son were a preemie I would have been even more of a mama bear about circ, even full term babies are just so fragile and no one has a right to inflict that on them. What is wrong with people?

[TheLuckiestEllie]

This just boggles my mind and makes me want to .

My boss circ'd her baby who was full-term but weighed only 4 pounds. I had even thought to myself, at least the poor kid won't be circ'd since he's so small and unstable. Wrong. (But, this is the same woman who wouldn't breastfeed because it's "too much work", gives her 3-month old rice cereal, lets him CIO, and lets him watch Baby Einstein DVDs.

We need to show people that circ is not normal. Then it will stop being a momment of normalicy.

Very well-said.

[iris0110]

I have a very close friend who was born at 25wks 23 yrs ago. He was very tiny, just 1.5lbs and very sick. As you can imagine it is miraculous that at that time he even survived. At 5wks he had to have heart surgery and his father requested the surgical nurse that he be circumcised during the heart surgery. She said it would be no problem and whisked him away. Now keep in mind he was probably 2.5lbs at the time and very very sick, going in for heart surgery (no idea what his father was thinking). Well the surgeon said no way he was doing that with the baby so very sick and just having heart surgery, it was crazy. So then he made it to 5lbs and was ready to be released and the nurse came around and said that the cardiologist had released him to go home and they could circumcise him now. Apparently his mother said "What the H@ll are you talking about!!!! He's just fought so hard to survive all this and you want to take him and inflict more pain?!?!?!!?!? What is wrong with you." Apparently she was anti circ from the start, they dont' do it in her family. The nurse told her that her husband had wanted it done and it really was best to protect him from infections because he was a premie. : Well she told her that because he was a premie he was at much greater risk from that surgery and it wouldnt' be done. The nurse went on for a while about how it was best, but she never budged and he went home intact. He is still intact, never had a single problem (that he has ever mentioned anyway). He's very grateful to his mother. However his father was apparently annoyed that his wife refused the circumcision and tried repeatedly to have it done when he was a small child. He always gave his son a hard time about it. My friend hates his father for a host of reasons, circumcision being only a small factor, but he always said he thought his father felt inferior because part of his penis was missing.

[mamasophy]

23 years ago he may have been operated on without pain meds - just a paralytic.

[phreedom]

Unfortunately they do circ preemies. The only time I havent' seen it done is when the boy´s penis is really small or hypospadias. Unfortunately it seems to be almost comforting to some parents...their babies are well enough to be circd...like a healthy term baby :

And the sad thing is the typical NICU infant has already been exposed to more painful things than the typical healthy term baby...so their response to pain is often different. They are often the babies that ¨just sleep right through it¨. They fall asleep bacause that is how they respond to pain...they are often still too weak to just scream and thrash the whole time.

[molarmama]

Originally Posted by rik8144

I work in the NICU and I hate to see the babies we have worked our butts off for have to go into more pain before they go home. I HATE looking at the prelim consent page and seeing that they do want to circ even though they had a 24-25-whatever week baby.

I have a question for you. Would you dare tell any of these parents that it doesn't need to be done? It seems obvious to me now but didn't when I had my sons circumcised. I consider myself well educated. I did the "research", which was asking my husband, dad and pediatrician. I was worried about it. I made sure anesthesia was going to be used. If ANYONE had given me an inkling that it wasn't necessary, I wouldn't have done it. My second son was in the NICU. I watched. I heard him scream. I walked out. I will FOREVER regret that moment in my life. That is when I knew. If the beloved nurse had said anything prior, I wouldn't have done it.

[phreedom]

Originally Posted by molarmama

I have a question for you. Would you dare tell any of these parents that it doesn't need to be done? It seems obvious to me now but didn't when I had my sons circumcised. I consider myself well educated. I did the "research", which was asking my husband, dad and pediatrician. I was worried about it. I made sure anesthesia was going to be used. If ANYONE had given me an inkling that it wasn't necessary, I wouldn't have done it. My second son was in the NICU. I watched. I heard him scream. I walked out. I will FOREVER regret that moment in my life. That is when I knew. If the beloved nurse had said anything prior, I wouldn't have done it.

Well I´m not the OP but as a nurse...I also obtain consents from parents, including circ consents. Whenever a new baby is admitted we usually try to get all the consents signed as soon as possible. Some nurses will get the circ consent signed as well. I never even go over that until the baby is more stable. Itś not going to be done immediately anyway. I find that many times the parents are very overwhelmed and don´t always pay attention to what they are signing.

If a baby is close to going home I ask if they plan on having the baby circed. I tell them this is usually done on the day of discharge and that they will be the ones taking care of it when the baby goes home...not us. Many assume that it will be done in the hospital and healed by the time the babe goes home...and wish it were. I also tell them it isn´t something they must do...plently of people elect not to. At this point most people have their mind made up and I´m not going to change it.

Unlike many of my collegues I try not to automatically assume that the parents want a circ. So many people just throw that consent in there with the rest of them if the baby is a boy. Itś just assumed it will be done. I always present it as an elective surgery. Itś not necessary. And I refer to it as a surgical procedure. Because of my job, I can´t ¨preach¨ to parents if thatś what they choose, but I always present it as an option that isn´t something that NEEDS to be done. And if they ask if it will hurt...I am always truthful. I just tell them in a matter of factly kind of way. Some babies scream...some will fall asleep. Babies respond to pain in different ways. I tell them the what is used for pain and give a step by step of how the circ is done. And if they still chose to do it and want to know how thier baby reacted...I tell them. If the baby cried I tell them...I don´t just tell them ¨Oh he slept right thorough it..." if he screamed through the whole thing. I don´t go on and on about it...but I don´t lie. Many times they seem to be looking for reassurance that the baby didn´t suffer in anyway.

I´m not gory about it, accusatory, or dramatic...just honest. If this makes the parents feel bad...well...oh well. Maybe if they understand they will make a different choice with the next child...or maybe they wont. But I refuse to sugar coat it.

[molarmama]

I guess what I'm saying is, I wish someone clearly told me that there was NO medical reason for it. I assumed that because "everyone" did it and it was done by a doctor that it was necessary. I had a friend that thought the same thing. I think if moms knew what was actually being done, how much it hurt and how unnecessary it was, they wouldn't do it. What doesn't the medical community tell us this?

[minkajane]

Originally Posted by molarmama

What doesn't the medical community tell us this?

Lots of reasons. Money, for one. They make money from the surgery, money from selling the foreskins, money from treating the complications and re-circumcising later. Another is that they don’t want to admit that they made a HUGE mistake. People would be furious if the AAP came out and admitted all the harm that is caused by circumcision and doctors would get sued because of a lack of informed consent. A third reason is that many many doctors, not to mention probably everyone on the AAP’s Circumcision Task Force is circumcised. The same reason dads push for their sons to be circumcised is why these docs push for other boys to be circumcised. They don’t want to admit that their penis is not the absolute perfect way a penis should be. I think for women docs it’s mainly the problem of not wanting to admit that they were wrong.

[Aimes]

My sons are preemies fighting for their lives right now and dh had wanted to get them circ'd however I was against it. After seeing how much the boys have gone through already and they are just 5 weeks old he finally gave in. Since we have heard of many parents wanting to circ their preemie. It breaks my heart. Only a few have really cried bloody murder but preemies are so resilent and have a higher pain tolerance. Still I would not put any son of mine through that much less a micropreemie or even a preemie

[Super Pickle]

Oh, Aimes, I'm sorry your boys are going through so much right now. You must be so exhausted and worried. I hope you are getting the support you need from your family and community.
Do you really think preemies have a higher pain tolerance, or do you think they've just become resigned to the pain, or maybe aren't strong enough to protest as vigorously as full-term babies? I don't know, I'm just wondering.
I'm glad your husband has come around. Keep protecting those babies!

[polka123]

Originally Posted by earthmama369

A woman came into the store where I work to buy a sling the other week, and told me she had preemie twins and the boy was almost ready to come home. I was so excited for her. Then she said he had been set to come home but he ended up having to stay 4 days longer was because he had just been circ'd and he crashed and needed to be stabilized. So not only did he lose a vital and functioning part of his body for no good reason, but he had to be separated from his parents for more than half a week more. : : WHY?!

OMG... how did you keep from saying anything? what willpower.

I might have hit her :

[polka123]

Originally Posted by Aimes

My sons are preemies fighting for their lives right now and dh had wanted to get them circ'd however I was against it. After seeing how much the boys have gone through already and they are just 5 weeks old he finally gave in. Since we have heard of many parents wanting to circ their preemie. It breaks my heart. Only a few have really cried bloody murder but preemies are so resilent and have a higher pain tolerance. Still I would not put any son of mine through that much less a micropreemie or even a preemie

((( hugs )))

[susienjay]

Originally Posted by Aimes

Only a few have really cried bloody murder but preemies are so resilent and have a higher pain tolerance. Still I would not put any son of mine through that much less a micropreemie or even a preemie

The NICU my twins were in did the circumcisions right in the NICU. I overheard 3 from the next room and I was in the room for one and all of the babies cried bloody murder for it. I have to wonder how hard a full term baby would scream for one. The little guy that I was in the room for weighed right around 5 pounds. He'd been in our room for over a week and I had never ever heard him make any noise at all. He cried for a good hour for the circ and then whimpered off and on for the next few hours. His parents came and took him home then. (he got lidocaine probably 15 minutes before the circ so he was actually "lucky" getting that when so many babies don't get anything)

We had never planned to circ but I think my son was the only boy I saw go home without having one done. I never heard any of the NICU staff discouraging it at all so parents that had planned to do it aren't going to know that there is anything wrong with it. My NICU handbook just said circs wouldn't be performed until the baby was at least 4 pounds and in stable condition. It was the Neos that performed them so I suppose they had an interest in them continuing because they would make extra money for it.