Ds dumped over laundry on purpose - Page 5

[transformed]

Originally Posted by thismama

Who cleans it.

No one!

Eventually, me, with a trashbag to give 75% of the toys to charity because I would rather give them away than clean up. He learned his cleaning skills from mommy and daddy. :

[thismama]

Originally Posted by transformed

No one!

Eventually, me, with a trashbag to give 75% of the toys to charity because I would rather give them away than clean up. He learned his cleaning skills from mommy and daddy. :

Ha! Sounds like my house.

Personally if it were me, nobody would be having fun making messes unless they were the ones cleaning said messes. You have to find the balance that works for you, but being a little assertive is not the same thing as being mean or disrespectful to your child.

[captain crunchy]

...according to you thismama.

I don't think a child can be expected to clean up when it isn't being modeled for them! Doesn't that sound a bit um... I dunno.. hypocritical?

OP I am so not trying to condemn you or speak disrespectfully. You do seem like you genuinely are looking for ways for everyone to work together in a way that leaves everyone feeling good and respected and that is awesome.

However, I do think it is unfair to expect a four year old to be tidy when you admit to not being too tidy (and I am not condemning you for that! It is not a value judgment it is a fact you provided). I think that children learn what they live, not what we tell them.

[transformed]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

...according to you thismama.

I don't think a child can be expected to clean up when it isn't being modeled for them! Doesn't that sound a bit um... I dunno.. hypocritical?

OP I am so not trying to condemn you or speak disrespectfully. You do seem like you genuinely are looking for ways for everyone to work together in a way that leaves everyone feeling good and respected and that is awesome.

However, I do think it is unfair to expect a four year old to be tidy when you admit to not being too tidy (and I am not condemning you for that! It is not a value judgment it is a fact you provided). I think that children learn what they live, not what we tell them.

I agree.

Is there a difference between a 4 year old throwing things to make a mess on purpose and mom and dad getting things out, using them, and not putting them away?

(seriously)

[captain crunchy]

Anyway Jenny, here is something that might help and is something I do with dd (she is 26 months but extremely verbal).

Your son has expressed a need. He thinks making messes are fun and enjoys mmaking messes.

You have a need. You don't want your house trashed.

Both are valid needs and can both be addressed imo -- I am assuming your son is verbal so why don't you tell him "I hear that you like making messes (state his need), but I like a to keep the house clean (your need). Let's work together to help eachother! Can you tell me when you want to make a mess and I will help you make one together!" Or some variation.

Set him up in the kitchen or bathroom with tons of stuff to go nuts with -- dd loves to paint and when I am feeling lazy she paints in the bathtub sans water -- all over the walls, standing in the bath -- then I can hose everything down really easily. We have bins of different textures and whatnot to make messes with --- shaving cream, sand, cormeal mixed with water that makes a goo, paint, things like that. I throw down an old, cheap shower curtain in the kitchen and she goes to town --- she (almost) always tells me now "I want to make a mess!!!" because she knows I don't see it as a *bad* thing or as something she can't do -- she knows she is totally *allowed* to make a mess and by telling me beforehand, I can get out the good stuff

Maybe that would work... maybe setting up situations where he is free to go to town (in the bathtub without water is a good containment for messes ) or outside or wherever, in a situation where he feels free to tell you messes are awesome (cuz they are, and to a four year old they are heaven on earth), and where he knows you will meet that need in a way that is agreeable to you -- it may avoid a lot of this.

Worth a try right?

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by thismama

If you want to chase around making sure there is never a place for your child to do something harmful on purpose, have at it. As for me I like to put my feet up once in awhile.

My style works for me. I have a child who is loved and secure, and treats others with respect. I cannot say the same for my friends whose children never get held responsible for intentionally damaging behaviour.

YMMV.

I guess I'm just not seeing responses the same way, because the ideas here I'm seeing don't feel to me like chasing around, or not holding your child responsible. There's a wide range of responses to a situation like this in between the two ideas above, and involve both addressing your child's issues, and figuring out ways you can adjust a situation to make it more successful for everyone. That seems pretty win/win to me.

Who ever thought I'd be advocating for more consensual solutions! What a journey I've taken in the past couple years! Believe me, I'm still way less consensual than many mamas here, and I have high expectations for my children when they are out and about in the world...but issues like this particular one seem to be much more productively and easily resolved when working together to find a way to make it work for everyone involved. So it's not mom walking on eggshells bubblewrapping everything, but it's also small child being sent to his room for the night when he's doing something that can easily be avoided, and in all honesty is a somewhat confusing situation (sometimes they dump piles of laundry together and jump on them, sometimes they don't) - I'm NOT bashing the OP, I have had many times where I've overreacted to situations and made them more complicated than they needed to be. I'm human. I just don't see this as a situation that's all or nothing, that it's either mom completely having to be on top of the laundry or kiddo having to be reprimanded or forced to handle the laundry the next day...

I dunno....just seems like we're likely not all that far apart in what we're saying, just seeing things a bit differently. I dont' think anyone here is advocating for mom to be slave to their kid and kid to be catered to all the time. At least, that's not what I'm getting here...

OK, gotta go do dinner. Maybe I'll check back later this evening.

[captain crunchy]

I dont' think anyone here is advocating for mom to be slave to their kid and kid to be catered to all the time. At least, that's not what I'm getting here...

It is called mutually agreeable solutions for a reason folks

[ssh]

Sounds like you have a bored 4 year old that really wants to interact with you. With everything going on right now you're overwhelmed. It's probably harder for him to find positive ways to get your attention. I'd probably try a playful approach and say something like "hey do you think you could throw the stuff back into the right bins from over here?". Then I'd try to throw an object back where it went. It couldn't hurt to try. He might toss everything back, but more importantly he'd get some pleasant interaction and you wouldn't be upset. As for the laundry issue my DD, 21 months, always "helps" me with laundry by first dumping it out then handing me individual hangers and pieces of clothing, while playing with the rest of the unfolded part. I always put the hung up and folded pieces where she can't reach them.
But then I only have one child, and for several reasons can't have any more. So DH and I are determined to for the three of us to enjoy these toddler and preschool years as much as we can. Sort of a 'savor the wild chaos' of DD's discovering the world around her. I couldn't imagine trying to give two LO's my complete attention while I was pregnant and feeling ill.

[polka hop]

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[thismama]

Originally Posted by polka hop

To me, one difference is that when I make a mess, I know that I'm eventually going to clean it up. I don't get things out, use them, and then assume that the rest is someone else's problem - I understand that I'm simply deferring the work that I'll need to do at some point or another.

Likewise, I don't view a 4 year old's angry-laundry-dumping as the same thing as my leaving the dinner dishes on the counter for a few hours. I see the former as more comparable to my deliberately knocking over the stack of CD-ROMs on my husband's desk (in order get his attention, anger him, provoke a reaction, whatever), and I see the latter as along the same lines as my child leaving her markers and crayons scattered around the table after she's done making pictures.

Yep.

[mamazee]

Four-year-olds don't have great impulse control. It might feel like your son is being mean and doing it to hurt you, but look at it from the point of view of a 4-year-old. A big pile of laundry is a lot of fun. Laundry baskets that are empty are a lot of fun. My daughter likes to pretend she's in a cage. I think it's about impulse control and not meanness.

Personally, I put the laundry somewhere my daughter can't get at it, sometimes even now that she's 5. We're just getting to a point where I can ask her if she wants to help me with the laundry and she'll sometimes help. But she can't look at a big pile of laundry without doing *something*. I can steer that need to touch toward folding (imperfect but still folded) but she has a hard time not doing something with that big pile of clothes.

As for room cleaning, I don't expect my daughter to keep her room particularly clean. She sometimes gets frustrated if she can't find something, or part of something, and I'll suggest it might be easier to find her things if her room was clean. I do help her clean if I see her in there tidying up. Or sometimes she'll say it's too messy and she doesn't know what to do, and I'll suggest two or three things at a time (put all the books in the bins, put all your dress-up clothes in the dress-up clothes hamper) and she'll work on those few things and ask for suggestions of other things to do. "Clean up" is a big vague for small children.

[Hoopin' Mama]

Funny, I was just dealing with this an hour ago.

Ds is almost three, and loves to throw piles of clothes on the floor. I was just folding clothes and he threw one folded pile on the floor. I suppose the simple thing to do would be keep the piles high up, but I really believe that it is more productive to help him learn. I explained to him that he can't throw the clothes on the floor, Mommy just spent time folding them, and also they would get dirty again (major dog hair). He can "help" me fold or pick things up and hand them to me. I asked him to tell me the colors of the shirts he saw. He went to push over another pile, and I gently but firmly told him that it was not helping, and to please help me or go play with his toys.

However, I would not leave the piles out long-term and expect them to stay there folded. Tempation is too strong, and it would be my fault if they ended up on the floor.

Lately, I have started to resist the urge to take things away, keep them high up, etc, to keep him out of things. I made this change when I realized we were putting the dog outside so ds doesn't bother him, instead of teaching ds not to bother the dog. I believe an almost three year old can understand that certain behaviors are expected of him, I address it when he does something he shouldn't, but I try not to get mad. Sometimes I fail.

As far as cleaning up messes, I participate in the clean up, but insist he helps since it is his mess. Even if it only means he does a small portion of it.

I really think children of that age can start to understand that certain behavior isn't acceptable, including pulling the dog's tail, or being purposefully destructive with things.

And I have seen kids on the playground do mean things. I'm sure they are lovely children usually, but I've seen mean come out of a 5 year old.

[rachellanigh]

Originally Posted by momto l&a

He knows it gets your goat so he does it.

And the less it "gets your goat" the less frequently he'll do it. That which you focus your attention on, he will as well.

Parenting is hard!!! Hang in there and enjoy your precious one while you can.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by transformed

This happens often in my house, and I dont know how to deal with it because it really makes me mad/sad/feel helpless.

Laundry is a really tough subject in my home-I am not very good at staying on top of that chore. So when I finally start to get caught up and have 2 full baskets of clean clothes in my living room, (THANK GOD it wasnt folded yet or I might have killed ds-age 4) but last night when we were hanging out before bedtime, my ds laughed, looked at me, and pulled the baskets down and dumped them over. :

It made me and dh so mad (because it was so disprespectful!) that dh escorted ds immedietly to bed. It was completley mean spirited. (He has done it before-which is one reason I am scared to fold laundry)

What would you do?!?! I should have made him pick it up but I was way too mad-I would have possibly lost my temper really bad-it was a looooong day.

??????????????????

Jenny

hi jenny -

i started to read this thread a little.... but decided i'd rather just respond directly to you then read it all and sift through the debates. i openly admit that i would probably get ticked off about that too. i am really laid back in many areas, but a tidy home is my weak spot. if your son was a toddler, i would say his behavior is very age appropriate. but since your son is 4 years old, and you have stated this is a common occurrence and have already talked with him about it -- well that's not okay imo. i would have asked my child to pick up the clothes he had knocked over and put them back in the basket. i would have tried to react calmly. however, i fully understand that you were too angry to follow that route, and i think it's really good that you knew your limits. imo - the fact that he went to bed immediately was more than enough consequence. in the future though, i would give him the logical consequence of picking up the clothes. if it happens again and everything is folded - then i would ask him to help me fold them and put them up. hugs mama.

[Hoopin' Mama]

Oh, I forgot to add...

I think you should ask him to help pick up the clothes he dumped over. Be persistant about it.

And then perhaps sit down and read a book, or give him some attention.

I always tell ds that I appreciate his efforts. He may not understand the word, but I'm sure he understands the tone.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by polka hop

I see the former as more comparable to my deliberately knocking over the stack of CD-ROMs on my husband's desk (in order get his attention, anger him, provoke a reaction, whatever

To play devil's advocate...suppose that for whatever reason you did knock over your husband's CDs even though you knew it would irritate him....how would you most appreciate him responding? By scolding you and telling you you must pick them up NOW and if you didn't sending you to your room, or by saying, "Um...that was uncool. I had those there for a reason. What's going on?"

[polka hop]

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[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by polka hop

But with each of them, I know there's a point at which they're going to just know that I consider the action unacceptable - and that's when I don't have as much interest in/hope for the approach of talking it through yet again, rather than giving a short reminder and expecting some sort of reparative action.

You know what? Point taken...gotta ruminate on this a little.

[dubfam]

What is it with the laundry anyway?

My son loves to dump it out too, and we have been dealing with this for years now.
We switched to using laundry bags that cinch closed instead of hampers. He can't get them open, and the clothes don't dump as easily even if he does get it open. I find that the laundry has much better chances of staying clean until I get it put away if ti is in the bags.

Good luck!

[LovinLiviLou]

Wow. There's a lot in this thread, and a lot I could say. I also have a just turned 4 year old, and we've had some trying times lately. For us, I think part of it is that she's just started a new school, and we're not settled into our new routine yet. And she is needing more attention (I think) from me at home because she doesn't yet feel comfortable at her new school (she likes it, it's just still new and that can be exhausting --I'm still that way at 32!). But I've found myself still thinking of these little "encounters" we have in a me vs her mentality. So, the other day I challenged myself to think about it as a knot. Is it going to come unloose if I just pull tighter? No. I need to back up, pull it out a different way, or try another approach. And this has helped me so much mentally. I still aim for the same outcome (laundry put back in the basket, toys put up, etc), but when I hit a roadblock with her, I just think "ok, come up with a new trick." And then, when it's all said and done (after the emotions are back together) I say "hey, you know what. I had worked hard to fold that laundry, and it upset me when you dumped it all out." And one time she even likened it to her art project that her sister had knocked over.

But you know what, sometimes I think we overlook the fact that, at 4 years old, they are starting to really understand their world and to realize how many (to them) things are imposed on them. Sometimes I think they just want to assert some control. And as a borderline control freak myself, I get that. Sometimes I draw a line with my husband over something completely stupid just because everything else in my world feels out of my control at that moment. I think it's perfectly fine to still make sure they have a part in getting the laundry back together or the toys picked up, but sometimes that may just be worth it to have the satisfaction of being in control.

And I also think that, at 4 years old, it is fun to just be crazy and dump things all over the place. We just sometimes have forgotten that 20 or 30 years later when we're the parent because we aren't willing to take on the fun knowing the price of the cleanup!