Trying to research liver stuff, but just freaking myself out

[GinaRae]

I'm trying to grasp what could be wrong, but it's all very scary (the various liver problems in pregnancy and what they can cause/require) http://www.aafp.org/afp/990215ap/829.html

I am overwhelmed and don't know which way to go.

[Googy]

Yikes! That link is really technical! Try these, they are a lot easier to read and understand:

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professi...4332_14543.asp

https://www.aasld.org/eweb/DynamicPa...FastFacts_Preg

http://www.obgyn.net/displayppt.asp?..._disease-Midan

http://www.ikp.unibe.ch/lab2/preg.html

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408884_3

When I read through these, none of them sounded like what you have been saying about yourself--do any of the symptoms lists sound right to you?

Or, I know that preeclampsia can affect the liver--is it possible that the real origin of your issues is preecalampsia, and the liver issues are a side effect, rather than you having liver disease as a primary diagnosis?

I have no idea, just trying to talk through possibilities out loud to help me think about it all. What does your MW say is going on????

[Momma Aimee]

Or, I know that preeclampsia can affect the liver--

My sister had Preecamlamps with her 2nd child, actually POSTeclampsia as she "got sick" right at birth -- she birthed in the birth center -- no intervention, no drugs, nothing, then failed the "going home" blood work at 24 hours pp. and ended up admitted to the hosptial after the fact.

I know that her MW -- told her LOTS of raw veggies , lots of them. they help the whole detox thing. also raw fruit -- espcailly grapes (at least theya re easy to eat ). beets are escpailly good -- a juice with them in it is a good then any time you make a veggie juice add one. Other than that -- salid.

How is your blood pressure?

[GinaRae]

It's frustrating because it's so much to look at and take in. I don't want to be a hypochondriac, so I am hesitant to admit to any symptoms! I second guess myself.

MY SYMPTOMS:

-- My urine is dark, especially the first half of the day, but does lighten some with more water consumation, however, still tends to show some junk in it like protein, bilirubin, leukocytes, ketones, etc.

-- I have headaches nearly every day. But that could be hormonal. I don't take Tylenol (because it's bad for the liver) unless I am desperate.

-- I do have general malaise nearly every day, and fatigue. But geez, that could be just the pregnancy.

-- I did have hyperemesis, which can apparently be caused by the liver

-- All over body itchies (not just soles and palms) and it tends to disappear more when I am taking Milk Thistle and Dandelion Root. It's not horrible itching that keeps me awake though, just annoying.

-- I do have upper belly pain (not right quadrant, but along the top) that seems to come and go and isn't excruciating, but hurts mostly when I am moving in certain ways like getting up from a chair, bending over, etc. I just got up and did some things and it was definitely a crampy tummy feeling the whole time I am moving, not muscle strain.

-- Liver panel showed my numbers were off a couple of months ago


NO SYMPTOMS OF:

-- No jaundice that I can see, no fever, no nausea and vomitting
-- My BP was 120/74 Friday, better than any other MW appointment so far.
-- I have no swelling, no spots in front of my eyes, no rapid weight gain (no weight gain at all!). Usually by 7 months I am swelling and gaining weight quickly. I've had toxemia twice, diagnosed at approx 7.5 months. I am 26/27 weeks now, so not quite there.

[Momma Aimee]

-- My urine is dark, especially the first half of the day, but does lighten some with more water consumation, however, still tends to show some junk in it like protein, bilirubin, leukocytes, ketones, etc.

-- I have headaches nearly every day. But that could be hormonal. I don't take Tylenol (because it's bad for the liver) unless I am desperate.

-- I do have general malaise nearly every day, and fatigue. But geez, that could be just the pregnancy.

-- I did have hyperemesis, which can apparently be caused by the liver

-- All over body itchies (not just soles and palms) and it tends to disappear more when I am taking Milk Thistle and Dandelion Root. It's not horrible itching that keeps me awake though, just annoying.

-- I do have upper belly pain (not right quadrant, but along the top) that seems to come and go and isn't excruciating, but hurts mostly when I am moving in certain ways like getting up from a chair, bending over, etc. So IS that the pain I should be concerned with, or is that just muscle strain?

-- Liver panel showed my numbers were off a couple of months ago

for what it is worth -- i made the ones COLORED that also bothered my sister with the pre/post eclampisa.....note her blood pressure was "high normal" untill post birth -- it was "a little high" during birth, but didn't come back down afterwards.

I really don't know



I really wish i could help more.

But if i was you i would share the list with MW and say "hey i do not know what of ithis just pregant and chaseing 3 other kids... but here is everything going on so we can see if any of it fits...." "and here are some things i am NOT noticeing, so we can take that into consideration too" Can't hurt.

Aimee

[GinaRae]

Yah, I am kind of expecting that I will get toxemia at this point. Don't tell my husband I said that he wants the uttmost positive thoughts and working towards overcoming the liver thing.

But I cannot seem to escape it with my pregnancies. I only had the PIH diagnosis with the last one, but I was swelling, gaining weight, and felt like death warmed over for weeks before the birth.

I just wish this wasn't happening as I feel my coping mechanism kicking in and an emotional shift from homebirth in a pool to dealing with doctors, nurses, hospitals and possibly surgery. We'll see - I am not giving up just yet.

[Valerieg]

Don't give up hope!!! Talk to your MW and discuss your symptoms and see if there is anything she can suggest to help. I know that the MW I was speaking to said her rate of pre-e and toxemia were super low due to the diet she recommended. So maybe you can begin following some sort of regimen with that?!?!?

Gosh I hope that everything is okay. But try to stay positive like your DH wants you to. Think good thoughts and thoughts of a happy and healthy liver and pregnancy. The mind is a powerful thing...and going down this road is going to do nothing but stress you out and cause worry.

GL!

[GinaRae]

Thanks, Valerie. I am disenchanted with my MWs right now. Seems they have lost faith in me and feel this is my fault. The one measured me and said I was measuring small and immediately blamed it on my protein intake. Of course I hadn't kept a jourmal yet and can NEVER recall what I have been eating!

The other one at my last appointment alluded to my not eating enough as being maybe my fault ... ie: I am trying not to gain weight. She actually asked me if I was "mad at myself" and not eating. SURE, I don't want to gain any more weight, but as I told her, I can never withold food from myself. I eat what I want! I have no will power.

Then there is my husband who is siding with them and feels I must not be doing enough.

Who knows, maybe it is my fault. But I am fighting back by documenting how much I eat and drink, right down to the bad stuff I consume, so they can see my intake.

When I go in (less than two weeks) with this in hand, I hope to see they've got a new attitude. They've never told me how many g's to get in protein per day. One of them said as long as I am getting it three times per day and snacking on things like walnuts, I will be doing what I need to be doing. Yet I could tell something has shifted and perhaps they don't feel I am worth it since I am having problems and seem non-compliant to them.

The thing I am most non-compliant with is the Milk Thistle and Dandelion Root and the other pill thingy. I THOUGHT I was with the water and protein, but it seems like I am getting in at least the minimum water she requires and the protein too. Now to just get the liver cleansers going...

[Momma Aimee]

I am disenchanted with my MWs right now. Seems they have lost faith in me and feel this is my fault. The one measured me and said I was measuring small and immediately blamed it on my protein intake. Of course I hadn't kept a jourmal yet and can NEVER recall what I have been eating!

The other one at my last appointment alluded to my not eating enough as being maybe my fault ... ie: I am trying not to gain weight. She actually asked me if I was "mad at myself" and not eating. SURE, I don't want to gain any more weight, but as I told her, I can never withold food from myself. I eat what I want! I have no will power.

I am so sorry -- i went though all that BS last time ... accused of intentially starving myself so i would not get fat (jsut cuz i happen to be a tall thin person, like i didn't want to go big???). and told over and over i was hurting the baby and so on ...... i do NOT see the point of it.

Just go in witha SMILE and say -- here is what I've been doing..... X, V, Y and Z. SMILE. and if you haven't gained weight, say "oh well I know i am eatting enough"..... some women do not gain, and even do loose, based on pre-prgancy weight ... and still have healthy babies. SMILE and be confident -- do not get bullied or defensive. I know how much this sucks.

How many MWs are there -- is the one that is better than the others?

Aimee

[GinaRae]

Two homebirth MWs that work together.

[moonchiald]

Have you read anything about this syndrome? It is pre-eclampsia related.

http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...nant/hellp.cfm

[GinaRae]

Originally Posted by moonchiald

Have you read anything about this syndrome? It is pre-eclampsia related. http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...nant/hellp.cfm

Thanks for the link - that's an easy one to read and pass along.

I have heard of it and it scares me. It makes me wonder if I had it with my last pregnancy. I guess I should bring it to the attention of the midwives if they haven't already thought of it.

The symptoms:

right-sided upper abdominal pain or pain around the stomach (Comes and goes)
nausea, vomiting (None)
headache (Mild to moderate headaches usually every day, comes and goes)
increased blood pressure (None so far which is unusual for me)
protein in the urine (Yes, but how much?)
edema (swelling) (None so far!)

[Googy]

Originally Posted by GinaRae

It's frustrating because it's so much to look at and take in. I don't want to be a hypochondriac, so I am hesitant to admit to any symptoms! I second guess myself.

MY SYMPTOMS:

-- My urine is dark, especially the first half of the day, but does lighten some with more water consumation, however, still tends to show some junk in it like protein, bilirubin, leukocytes, ketones, etc.

-- I have headaches nearly every day. But that could be hormonal. I don't take Tylenol (because it's bad for the liver) unless I am desperate.

-- I do have general malaise nearly every day, and fatigue. But geez, that could be just the pregnancy.

-- I did have hyperemesis, which can apparently be caused by the liver

-- All over body itchies (not just soles and palms) and it tends to disappear more when I am taking Milk Thistle and Dandelion Root. It's not horrible itching that keeps me awake though, just annoying.

-- I do have upper belly pain (not right quadrant, but along the top) that seems to come and go and isn't excruciating, but hurts mostly when I am moving in certain ways like getting up from a chair, bending over, etc. I just got up and did some things and it was definitely a crampy tummy feeling the whole time I am moving, not muscle strain.

-- Liver panel showed my numbers were off a couple of months ago


NO SYMPTOMS OF:

-- No jaundice that I can see, no fever, no nausea and vomitting
-- My BP was 120/74 Friday, better than any other MW appointment so far.
-- I have no swelling, no spots in front of my eyes, no rapid weight gain (no weight gain at all!). Usually by 7 months I am swelling and gaining weight quickly. I've had toxemia twice, diagnosed at approx 7.5 months. I am 26/27 weeks now, so not quite there.

Gina Rae,
Your symptoms list makes me feel nevrous, because you do have many of the syptoms listed under ICP, HELLP, and Acute Fatty Liver of Pregnancy (see links I sent you). It may be nothing, but I tink it may be worth checking out. I wonder if you should make an appointment with a heptologist (liver doctor) just to have a few blood and urine tests run by an expert, rather than the general screenings that the midwives can do. If it is one of these disorders, water and protein and milk thistle aren't going to cut it--these condiditons are serious for you and the baby and need to be treated with medication. I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but I think in pregnancy its better to be safe than sorry.

And I'm so sorry that your midwives are being so unsupportive--all of us on this board can see how hard you've been trying to be healthy for your baby! Unfortunately, our bodies don't always cooperate with us!

[Valerieg]

Gosh, lots of scary stuff. Getting checked out could be a good thing. In the meantime, if you PM me your email address I can send you the diet and checklist the MW gave me when we met. She suggested 100g of protein which required 2 eggs/day (helps your body with the protein, so liver can handle it, something like that) and a couple potatoes each week. It also has check-offs for things like orange veggies. Pretty specific really.

I'd be happy to pass it along. But hopefully they start to take you seriously. Stuff like this is nothing to turn your back on.

[gossamer]

Gina, with yoru history of pre-e and PIH, I encourage you to please either approach your midwives very seriously about your symptoms or go to an OB/GYN. I had the very same symptoms you are talking about, including some others. I didn't htink it was that big of a deal. My OB told me it was just gas or constipation, don't worry about it and the CNM told me how sweet that I had such a sweet petite baby who was only measuring in the 25% at 24.5 weeks. I went to an Peri appointment on July 29th at 2:45 p.m., I was admitted to the hospital at 5:00 p.m. and my daughter was born via emergency classical incision c-section at 10:22 p.m. and died at 11:30 p.m. due to my being diagnosed with pre-e and HELLP. You are not a hypochondric and these symptoms need to be taken seriously. Pre-eclampsia kills mothers and babies.

My sister had Preecamlamps with her 2nd child, actually POSTeclampsia as she "got sick" right at birth

Pre-eclampsia is still pre-eclampsia no matter when you get it. IT is called pre-eclampsia because left untreated will lead to eclampsia (seizures, swelling of the brain, stroke, liver failure, kidney failure and death) In fact most women who die from pre-eclampsia die in the 24 hours AFTER their birth. I have a link to my precious Mary Rose who is a victim of pre-eclampsia. It is not something to take lightly or dismiss.
Gossamer

[moonchiald]

It may not be anything serious: but follow your instincts! If you feel that this is something that needs to be followed up on, then I second the suggest to go to an OB if your MW won't take you seriously.

[GinaRae]

So sorry for your loss, Gossamer.

I guess my thing is, if I am not swelling and there's no high blood pressure... I think that's what has held me up as I think this through. I have had pre-e twice and it was different than this because I was swelling, gaining weight, had high BP, spots in front of my eyes....

However, I was talking with the hubster tonight and told him I was going to ask for the tests I read about on the HELLP pages and perhaps an ultrasound, etc..

My thing is, if baby is seriously ill and going to die from something that's already done that I can't stop, I want to be at home to have the baby and let him/her go in my arms.

BUT if I have pre-e or HELLP, I can still do something and would rather have an early c/s than put the babe at risk.

[gossamer]

How often are you taking your blood pressure? You can start roller coasting and not realize that there are periods of really high blood pressure. 5 days before Mary Rose was born, I was seen bya CNM and she said that my blood pressure looked fine and she saw no sign of pre-e. Check out this thread here
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=gossamer

Gossamer

[Googy]

Gina,
I'm so glad that you're going to get the tests. I've been thinking about you a lot. I think the situation is potentially serious enough that its worth going to a specialist who really understands the liver and getting all the information you can. I strongly believe in natural childbirth and in limiting medical interventions during pregnancy BUT when something is really wrong I am very grateful that we have medical science available, you know? I just think you would be happier and healthier is you had all the information, if you knew for sure what was going on, rather than worrying and guessing. Stress and worry aren't good for you or the baby! Please let us know when you're getting the tests--I'm sure we will all be thinking about you!

[Momma Aimee]

Pre-eclampsia is still pre-eclampsia no matter when you get it. IT is called pre-eclampsia because left untreated will lead to eclampsia (seizures, swelling of the brain, stroke, liver failure, kidney failure and death) In fact most women who die from pre-eclampsia die in the 24 hours AFTER their birth. I have a link to my precious Mary Rose who is a victim of pre-eclampsia. It is not something to take lightly or dismiss.

Gina, please listen to these learned momma and get someone to really check you out. if it IS nothing, then better safe than sorry, if it is something, thank God we found out now... YK.

I never meant to dismiss it or downplay it -- I was mearely commenting that bith alone doesn't end the cycle -- and if there is a medical condition going on -- it will not go poof with birth -- it will still be there and somone is going to to digonose it and treat it -- and potinally easier to treat it now, and safer for mom and baby , than to wait PP. I fully understand the danger.

My thing is, if baby is seriously ill and going to die from something that's already done that I can't stop, I want to be at home to have the baby and let him/her go in my arms.

BUT if I have pre-e or HELLP, I can still do something and would rather have an early c/s than put the babe at risk.

Excately. If the baby can be saved -- that is IF ther eis anything wrong -- you want to know...... otherwise you will sit around and worry, and wonder and 2nd guess yourself .. and think how you could potentially feel IF something does happen, thinking back wondering if you should have gotten a test, or asked someone, and so on ....

our hearts go out to you.