would you have a problem w/ this kindergarten entrance test? - Page 5

[Aeress]

Iansmom- you sound like an excellent teacher and you hit the nail on the head...if you are teaching something just to teach it, when it does not relate to your students needs, they why do it?

I get myself in trouble for asking "why are you doing that lesson? what is it teaching? could you approach that subject in a different way? how do you assess whether the child understood and found the information useful?"

I see alot of assesment that looks at one skill as being the end all be all for a whole area of development. Yes, lack of skipping can show an area of concern but it doesn't necessarily mean that the child needs help/services.

[lilsishomemade]

Originally Posted by Codi's Mama

Nope, that's what preschool is for. That is not how kindergarten is now.

The problem with this is not all kids go to preschool. For a variety of reasons. For my family, we can't afford preschool. It's not compulsory. Actually, neither is Kindy in my state (child must be in school by age 7). Kindergarten *is* meant to help children learn what going to school is all about.

I just realized that Kindergarten used to be something not all kids went to. It was pretty much regarded as preschool. My mother never went to Kindergarten because there wasn't one in her town. But, schools started realizing how nice it was to have this class to help get the children ready for school before the learning started getting more serious.

[IansMommy]

Originally Posted by brendon

Iansmom- you sound like an excellent teacher and you hit the nail on the head...if you are teaching something just to teach it, when it does not relate to your students needs, they why do it?

:
Thank you. I must say--I don't post in TAO that much...but I like the school threads...I feel like it's actually something I know a little about.
And I am also happy that this thread is still going...that I didn't kill it, and that it has stayed rather informative, intellectual, and civil. It's been nice for me to talk "adult" stuff after a few years out of the system!

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by lilsishomemade

The problem with this is not all kids go to preschool. For a variety of reasons. For my family, we can't afford preschool. It's not compulsory. Actually, neither is Kindy in my state (child must be in school by age 7). Kindergarten *is* meant to help children learn what going to school is all about.

For most kids, the necessary "what is school all about" skills will be picked up extremely quickly. Kindergarten teachers are certainly not going to expect that every child knows how to stand in a line or raise their hands on the first day. So I don't think that there's any worry for the majority of children; they don't NEED preschool. If your K-age child can handle a relatively academic day, and most of them can, there shouldn't be an issue.

The problem comes when you have a child who is at the right age, but isn't ready for an academic program or isn't developmentally mature enough to thrive in a non-play environment. It's not "you don't know enough to start K"; it's "Your brain and body aren't ready to start K." Doesn't matter how many years of preschool are behind that child; he or she just isn't ready. That's why the schools try to catch them before school starts so they can be put in a two-year program or given a whole-day kindergarten.

While I share some of the sadness that kids need to be categorized so young, I think in the balance this is a good move. It's not like the upper-grade teachers have any idea who did two years of K and who didn't; the "labeling" doesn't follow the child. Plenty of kids who were developmentally "young" as five-year-olds are brilliant fifth-graders.

[gcgirl]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Has it been considered that the reason for doing the assessments before school begins so the kids can be tested individually and not compare their own abilities with the other kids they see around them? For that reason alone, I'd support individual testing; I don't think that a kid needs to be forced to skip (or try to) in front of ten or twenty other children.

When we had our tests (circa 1981?), they were always done in private. Each child was asked outside to meet with the tester.

And yes, I believe it was less for "tracking" than for determining if any children had specific developmental needs.

[katt]

I thought Kinder. was where you learned your alphabet and how to write your name. never mind, this was addressed, i suppose i should read more then the op.

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Okay, so what is that? If one kid is advanced in reading but sucks at math, and another doesn't know the alphabet but is advanced in math, who is dragging whom down? And which one is getting the appropriate instruction? And what are you supposed to do in a classroom of 20 kids to address this?

Your insinuation is that you are in favor of these tests to weed out the kids who aren't up to par academically. And my question is - where do those kids go?

I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. :

This has nothing to do with weeding anyone 'in' or 'out'. It has to do with figuring out what each child's abilities are, and teaching appropriately. This is a very simple concept.

[beanandpumpkin]

I have not read all of the responses, but when I went to kindy, I remember taking an assessment test. I had to build a little pyramid out of 10 blocks to look just like the teacher's. I had to walk on a masking-tape line on the floor. I don't remember skipping. I think I had to verbally spell my name, not sure if I had to write it.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, and I'm a staunch "against testing for my kids" type of homeschooler. Do they split up the classes, so there's a "high kindergarten" and a "low kindergarten" class, like they do with the older kids? In first grade, I remember being split up by reading ability. I think it's probably the same thing. It's not fair to a child who can read at 5 to be forced to learn "B says buh" for the bulk of the year... and not fair to the child who can't recognize letters yet to sit there confused when the rest of the children are sounding out CVC words.

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. :

This has nothing to do with weeding anyone 'in' or 'out'. It has to do with figuring out what each child's abilities are, and teaching appropriately. This is a very simple concept.

No, it's actually not simple. You said that you didn't want a kid who didn't know their alphabet to be dragging your kids down. So, where does that kid go? And if they do go into the classroom, how then does the teacher teach to both of those children "appropriately?"

I don't see any way you can teach to each child's ability in a classroom of 20 kids. Some are going to be ahead and bored, and some are going to be behind and embarassed. I think it sucks for all the kids (this is one of the reasons we homeschool), but to refer to a child who doesn't know his alphabet as dragging your kids down is pretty loaded.

I don't think solving this problem is simple at all. Our educational system certainly hasn't been able to solve it yet.

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

No, it's actually not simple. You said that you didn't want a kid who didn't know their alphabet to be dragging your kids down. So, where does that kid go? And if they do go into the classroom, how then does the teacher teach to both of those children "appropriately?"

I don't see any way you can teach to each child's ability in a classroom of 20 kids. Some are going to be ahead and bored, and some are going to be behind and embarassed. I think it sucks for all the kids (this is one of the reasons we homeschool), but to refer to a child who doesn't know his alphabet as dragging your kids down is pretty loaded.

I don't think solving this problem is simple at all. Our educational system certainly hasn't been able to solve it yet.

I didn't say that. Give me a break!

It was an EXAMPLE. Do we all know what this means? In this case, an example is a HYPOTHETICAL. If you'll all direct your attention to my signature, you'll see my oldest is TWO, and therefore not kindy aged. I have no idea if he'll know how to read going into kindergarten. He may very well have special needs that would put him in another category entirely. (This is a distinct possibility given his speech delay and phonological disorder.)

And if he needs special attention, I wouldn't want him drowning in a classroom where the teacher is focusing on teaching kids to read. I would want the teacher to KNOW he doesn't know his alphabet yet and to start there.


I agree it's not simple, but I'd really appreciate it if people stopped with the unkind insinuation about my meaning, which I think is pretty damn clear.

[wannabe]

I think it sounds great and very fair

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

Also, if my children go into kindergarten academically advanced...say all ready reading and writing, no I absolutely wouldn't want them to be lumped in with their peers who need basic instruction in the alphabet. They'd be bored out of their skulls. I'm not penalizing my children out of a warped sense of non-judgementalism.

I guess I misread this. To me this sounds like you don't want a kid who doesn't know their alphabet in the classroom if other kids are reading. I was just wondering where that kid would go.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by IansMommy

Yes, yes yes!

For instance, my son can write all of his letters, but many of them are written functionally incorrectly. (which I didn't realize until he had OT and it was explained. I always answered that he could write letters because, from my uneducated perspective, he could since he was 2) He now has the tripod instead of palmer grasp, but still isn't using fine motor to control the writing (coming from the shoulder instead of the hand/wrist),

Fun fact - I am 25 and still don't have a tripod grasp.
Also I have never mastered the tying your shoes thing, I have to make 2 loops and cross them and pull through. Every other adult does this rabbit-around-the-tree thing that I can't do.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by edamommy

so, it's AOK w/ you for your child to be put in a "different" class based on his/her skipping ability?

I would be delighted. My DS has already been through OT and ST in Early Intervention and they were of benefit.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I guess I misread this. To me this sounds like you don't want a kid who doesn't know their alphabet in the classroom if other kids are reading. I was just wondering where that kid would go.

That child would be getting one-on-one or small-group assistance with the alphabet.

[~gilli~]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

I think it is very bizarre.

I also think it is a bad idea to put kids into groups from these tests.

Then how would you group them?

[the_lissa]

I'm not sure I would put them into different groups, but I think the children should be observed over a period of days or weeks at the beginning of the school year to see where their strengths and weakneses are and how best to teach them. ONe day and one test to put kids in groups- no.

[Black Orchid]

Originally Posted by boingo82

Also I have never mastered the tying your shoes thing, I have to make 2 loops and cross them and pull through. Every other adult does this rabbit-around-the-tree thing that I can't do.

Me NEITHER!!!! Finally a kindred spirit. My DH thinks there is something very wrong with this I'm glad I am not the only one!!!

[Black Orchid]

I am really shocked at how different Kindergarten is (at least on this thread) compared to what I remember. I am very torn about homeschooling... this is validating my worst fears about the pushing going on in PS to have kids learning things so soon... my DD has just begun recognizing and writing letters... on her own. i tried to help, but soon realized that she just needs to be given the information and learn on her time. she is just going to preschool this fall... she's going to be 4. and it is a mostly-play program. the only learning is about following rules, etc.

scary that this is going on so early!

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Black Orchid

Me NEITHER!!!! Finally a kindred spirit. My DH thinks there is something very wrong with this I'm glad I am not the only one!!!

I am so relieved there's at least one other person out there who can't tie their shoes either.