"Rat poison"? - Page 3

[katheek77]

Originally Posted by minkajane

A few people on this thread have stated that they've seen formula referred to as poison here. I have a hard time believing that the MDC mods would tolerate this. Can you please post a link to the thread or post you're referencing?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 7

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 1

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 11

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 100 (dang, that took a while to read)

those are just a few I found. And the last one is particularly vituperative

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by katheek77

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 7

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 1

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 11

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=poison Post Number 100 (dang, that took a while to read)

those are just a few I found. And the last one is particularly vituperative

Yes the last one is pretty harsh, but the truth is those things are horrible non-food ingredients that don't have any business being in food for babies. As for the others, you really have to take the word poison in context. Two of them seemed to mean poison in the sense that formula poisons one's ability to breastfeed. I don't think there is much arguement that formula is really dangerous to a mother who wants to breastfeed because using it just a few times can start a vicious cycle leading to supply issues and eventual cessation of breastfeeding all together. The first and last threads were harsher, but the other threads were using the word poison to express there strong feelings toward the formula companies. They were not criticizing ff moms. However, unless we can get society to see the inherent danger in the overuse of formula it will be difficult to get proper support for breastfeeding in this company.

On another note I truly believe we can not make another person feel guilty. They can allow themselves to feel that way or choose not to feel that way. If deep down you know you did the best that you could you have done, then you have no reason to feel guilty. I think a lot of people feel guilty when they know deep down they could have tried harder.

[Da WIC Lady]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

Yes the last one is pretty harsh, but the truth is those things are horrible non-food ingredients that don't have any business being in food for babies. As for the others, you really have to take the word poison in context. Two of them seemed to mean poison in the sense that formula poisons one's ability to breastfeed. I don't think there is much arguement that formula is really dangerous to a mother who wants to breastfeed because using it just a few times can start a vicious cycle leading to supply issues and eventual cessation of breastfeeding all together. The first and last threads were harsher, but the other threads were using the word poison to express there strong feelings toward the formula companies. They were not criticizing ff moms. However, unless we can get society to see the inherent danger in the overuse of formula it will be difficult to get proper support for breastfeeding in this company.

On another note I truly believe we can not make another person feel guilty. They can allow themselves to feel that way or choose not to feel that way. If deep down you know you did the best that you could you have done, then you have no reason to feel guilty. I think a lot of people feel guilty when they know deep down they could have tried harder.

I totally agree. I haven't read the threads, but your general sentiment is what I run into resistance with at work. It gets turned around into not making the FF moms feel guilty. I use the same argument about nobody can make anyone feel anything they don't already feel. I agree with you about why a lot of FF moms feel guilty. I'm going for a home visit with a mom of a premie who feels guilty about not producing enough breastmilk for the baby. I'm going to take her a SNS and at least a manual pump until she can get an electric one from my boss. Baby has a bad latch and weak suck. This mom has tried everything she can think of and is desperate to make this work. Even if she quit at this point, she has gone far beyond what other moms with term babies have done and if the interventions we can provide don't work for her then she should have no regrets. I'm not sure how long I would hold up with the resources she hasn't had in the past 4 months. She wasn't getting any support from the neighboring district and just transfered to mine this week since her mother knows me and asked me what offices I work at.

Anna

[mommy2caroline]

Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady

I agree about calling ABM poison and crap, but the sad truth is that a FF baby is more likely to die, even in the US. Most people will shrug it off as a third world problem. One of the questions on our pregnant mom's survey at work asks if the person thinks formula is just as good as BF. We get so many people that insist that there is no difference, I want to tell them the risks in plain English instead of beating around the "BM is better because..." bush. I had a mom ask me straight out yesterday why BM is better and I told her that BM has so many ingredients that formula will never be able to replicate and that is is specifically designed to be just what the baby needs every time, while formula stays the same for every feeding, regardless if that's what the baby needs at the moment or not. I've been ordered specifically not to tell moms that FF increases the chances of their baby getting sick or dying even though my supervisor admits it's true.

I see FF and even EBM in a bottle as a medical intervention. I know it's a bit of an extreme view, but when you think about it, it makes sense as breastfeeding is the physiological norm. With any medical intervention there are benefits as well as risks. I just don't feel that the medical establishment is doing it's patients justice by not following the same informed consent procedures as they would when recommending any other intervention. I understand that babies need to eat something somehow, but to promote FF without fully informing the parents of the risks they're taking with their child's health is unethical.

Anna

The risks are true - they are fact. It bothers me that by pointing out risks, we are somehow being mean or judgmental. I didn't make up the facts, and I don't share them to be mean - I share them to try to help babies and show that bfing is the norm. It's like saying kids in daycare are more likely to get sick more often - it's just true, and depending on why you are saying it, it is just mean to be informative... as in, a pediatrician informing a new mom of this would be just for her information on her baby's health, and therefore not judgmental in the least. It would be different if somebody said that to a single mom who has to work to make ends meet - she's already in the situation, so of course it's not necessary to share that info.

I mean, why is rotavirus so big lately in infants? Many are hospitalized... and I am sure most of those are FF. It is true that FF puts babies at risk of more illnesses, or more severe cases. The truth is important - it's not designed to make people feel bad, but to give them all the info so they know their options and can weigh risks vs. benefits.

[mommy2caroline]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

On another note I truly believe we can not make another person feel guilty. They can allow themselves to feel that way or choose not to feel that way. If deep down you know you did the best that you could you have done, then you have no reason to feel guilty. I think a lot of people feel guilty when they know deep down they could have tried harder.

I think I have said that very same thing on other threads/forums/who knows where... are you my long-lost twin, ???

And if somebody is obviously trying to make somebody feel guilty, well, then that person is just rude and doesn't need to be listened to, if their only intent is to really try to make somebody else feel bad.

[prettypixels]

Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady

I agree about calling ABM poison and crap, but the sad truth is that a FF baby is more likely to die, even in the US. Most people will shrug it off as a third world problem. One of the questions on our pregnant mom's survey at work asks if the person thinks formula is just as good as BF. We get so many people that insist that there is no difference, I want to tell them the risks in plain English instead of beating around the "BM is better because..." bush. I had a mom ask me straight out yesterday why BM is better and I told her that BM has so many ingredients that formula will never be able to replicate and that is is specifically designed to be just what the baby needs every time, while formula stays the same for every feeding, regardless if that's what the baby needs at the moment or not. I've been ordered specifically not to tell moms that FF increases the chances of their baby getting sick or dying even though my supervisor admits it's true.

I see FF and even EBM in a bottle as a medical intervention. I know it's a bit of an extreme view, but when you think about it, it makes sense as breastfeeding is the physiological norm. With any medical intervention there are benefits as well as risks. I just don't feel that the medical establishment is doing it's patients justice by not following the same informed consent procedures as they would when recommending any other intervention. I understand that babies need to eat something somehow, but to promote FF without fully informing the parents of the risks they're taking with their child's health is unethical.

Anna

I wonder if these studies take into account the many, many babies who are saved by formula. So if 720 babies die per year because of formula, how many LIVE because of formula? Mine is one. I know personally of many others. The idea that EVERY MOM CAN BREASTFEED is a myth. Here we are all aware of the obstacles that face a mom, but even a mom who does "everything right," can wind up with low milk supply, like me! And the vast majority of moms are not going to have the education, information, and support that I did.

So basically my point is that I find these studies disturbing because they never examine the flip side or compare. I am willing to bet that formula saves many more lives than it harms.

(Which of course does not mean I believe any child should be harmed or that it is ok that any child is ever harmed and in a perfect world no child would ever be harmed by anything, EVER. But we're talking about numbers here. Also, I'm the world's biggest lactivist; which is why I'm still renting a hospital grade pump and pumping 4/5 times a day, taking domperidone, and sucking down that awful motherlove tincture 3 x a day, 8 months out! Because I do believe breastmilk is liquid gold!)

[nausicaamom]

On another note I truly believe we can not make another person feel guilty. They can allow themselves to feel that way or choose not to feel that way. If deep down you know you did the best that you could you have done, then you have no reason to feel guilty. I think a lot of people feel guilty when they know deep down they could have tried harder.

Deep down I did know that I did the best that I could but that didn't stop me from beating myself up over it and it didn't stop the fact that I needed to grieve for my lost breastfeeding relationship - guilt that you didn't do enough or could have tried harder can be a big part of that. If you were a mom who had an usuccessful breastfeeding relationship and didn't feel any remorse or feel any guilt then you are a better woman than I. Just remember that because *you* didn't feel those things, doesn't mean that everyone doesn't - words *can* hurt, a lot.

I do not mean this to say that the risks of ABM should not be preached far and wide, just show a bit of compassion for those who tried and failed because while 95%-97% of women are able to lactate, many of them are not able to successfully breastfeed because the support is just not there.

[sonrisaa29]

Originally Posted by nausicaamom

Deep down I did know that I did the best that I could but that didn't stop me from beating myself up over it and it didn't stop the fact that I needed to grieve for my lost breastfeeding relationship - guilt that you didn't do enough or could have tried harder can be a big part of that. If you were a mom who had an usuccessful breastfeeding relationship and didn't feel any remorse or feel any guilt then you are a better woman than I. Just remember that because *you* didn't feel those things, doesn't mean that everyone doesn't - words *can* hurt, a lot.

I do not mean this to say that the risks of ABM should not be preached far and wide, just show a bit of compassion for those who tried and failed because while 95%-97% of women are able to lactate, many of them are not able to successfully breastfeed because the support is just not there.

I know the feeling. Due to meds, I knew that I could not bf for more than a couple of weeks, but the LC (who I believe was also a LLL memeber) refused to help once finding out I was going to be using formula. Her and various other people I met while FF my child told me I was killing him, feeding him poison, causing him to have mental health issues and the list goes on. Now try dealing with all those things and having PPD, and maybe y'all are better moms than i am as well that you are able to have no hurt feelings, or guilt.

[boobs4milk]

i have made the mistake of saying that formula is poison in re to the fact that it poisons the bf relationship. i got burned at the proverbial stake for that one...

and have any of you really read and scrutinized the ingredients list for formula? it's amazing to me how chosey we are w/things like diapers and circ, but then we allow our children to be fed things like msg and corn syrup as their main food source?

i agree that we need to be angry w/formula manufacturers, but you can not educate mothers by lobbying. i try to let the women that i counsel know that formula is very akin to feeding your baby boxed macaroni and cheese all day, every day. that way, i'm not calling formula a bad name but i'm still representing it for what it is...processed and unnatural.

[nausicaamom]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

i agree that we need to be angry w/formula manufacturers, but you can not educate mothers by lobbying. i try to let the women that i counsel know that formula is very akin to feeding your baby boxed macaroni and cheese all day, every day. that way, i'm not calling formula a bad name but i'm still representing it for what it is...processed and unnatural.

That's still a misrepresentation in my opinion. Heck, even the World Health Organization admits that ABM has a place in infant nutrition and is rightly listed after breastmilk in all of it's forms (from mom, wet nurse, pumped milk). The fact of the matter is that ABM is the only safe alternative that exists outside of BM and while it's not providing the nutrients in BM and carries risks I don't really think it's akin to feeding a babe boxed mac & cheese, unless *maybe* if you are considering BM the equivalent of homemade mac & cheese.

[katheek77]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

and have any of you really read and scrutinized the ingredients list for formula? it's amazing to me how chosey we are w/things like diapers and circ, but then we allow our children to be fed things like msg and corn syrup as their main food source?

i agree that we need to be angry w/formula manufacturers, but you can not educate mothers by lobbying. i try to let the women that i counsel know that formula is very akin to feeding your baby boxed macaroni and cheese all day, every day. that way, i'm not calling formula a bad name but i'm still representing it for what it is...processed and unnatural.

I agree. But the point is that there are some women *don't* have that choice, and can't afford to be choosy. (My story is in the EP'ers tribe, but, long story short, I have tubular breasts...no matter what I do, I don't make enough milk). Does it suck that we have to feed our children that? Yes. Of course it does. But the alternatives aren't exactly promising. When I looked, breastmilk was averaging about 3 dollar an OUNCE. Holy cow! During Katie's growth spurts that would have meant buying 20+ ounces (in addition to what she got from me). Sixty bucks a day! Even when she wasn't going through a growth spurt, it was easily 10-14ounces a day...I love my daughter to death, but we don't have 900 extra dollars/month lying around (and that's at 10 ounces a day, which would been the MINIMUM). Wet nurses...I don't know anyone currently nursing. So, yeah, it sucks that we have to feed our children that. I guess I could have let her starve. And, yes, I feel a LOT of guilt for it....probably one reason I'm still pumping 14 months out...trying to make up for all the "damage" I did when I had to give her formula.

I know it offends everyone when they see "now with dha - more like mother's milk" on everything, but I do cheer a little...because my daughter got that formula, of necessity, and the closer it is to mine (and the less like boxed mac and cheese), the better. And for those babies whose mothers could care less about bf-ing, even better, since they're not getting any of the good stuff to help negate the formula's effect. I'd love to see the price of breastmilk go down (we probably could have swung it at about half that price - but I know lots of families couldn't do it even at *that* price), I'd love to see better formula. If they can figure out how to do EITHER of those, I'd be thrilled.

[Da WIC Lady]

Originally Posted by prettypixels

I wonder if these studies take into account the many, many babies who are saved by formula. So if 720 babies die per year because of formula, how many LIVE because of formula? Mine is one. I know personally of many others. The idea that EVERY MOM CAN BREASTFEED is a myth. Here we are all aware of the obstacles that face a mom, but even a mom who does "everything right," can wind up with low milk supply, like me! And the vast majority of moms are not going to have the education, information, and support that I did.

So basically my point is that I find these studies disturbing because they never examine the flip side or compare. I am willing to bet that formula saves many more lives than it harms.

(Which of course does not mean I believe any child should be harmed or that it is ok that any child is ever harmed and in a perfect world no child would ever be harmed by anything, EVER. But we're talking about numbers here. Also, I'm the world's biggest lactivist; which is why I'm still renting a hospital grade pump and pumping 4/5 times a day, taking domperidone, and sucking down that awful motherlove tincture 3 x a day, 8 months out! Because I do believe breastmilk is liquid gold!)

In those cases, medical intervention is warranted. FF is a medical intervention. You know from experience that other interventions can be tried before formula becomes absolutely necessary. There are moms out there that stop at the first sign of trouble and don't get help that aren't fully informed of the risks formula poses. In fact, if a mom uses formula I encourage her to use ready to feed or concentrate since it's sterilized and powder is not. If you want to talk numbers, here's a little something from Pediatrics on the health care costs associated with formula use.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...urcetype=HWCIT

I understand some mothers must use formula for medical reasons. It's the moms who use it just because they can, putting their child at risk for no reason that get me.

Anna

[julie128]

Originally Posted by minkajane

A few people on this thread have stated that they've seen formula referred to as poison here. I have a hard time believing that the MDC mods would tolerate this. Can you please post a link to the thread or post you're referencing?

Sorry, I can't search MDC with the browser that I have. I have seen it, and I was not aware that it was not allowed at MDC. If I see it again, I will report it. That's just wrong.

[julie128]

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

I know the feeling. Due to meds, I knew that I could not bf for more than a couple of weeks, but the LC (who I believe was also a LLL memeber) refused to help once finding out I was going to be using formula. Her and various other people I met while FF my child told me I was killing him, feeding him poison, causing him to have mental health issues and the list goes on. Now try dealing with all those things and having PPD, and maybe y'all are better moms than i am as well that you are able to have no hurt feelings, or guilt.

That's terrible. I'm studying to be an LC, and I think it's perhaps even more important to keep working with a mother who is ff because they will need more information on nutritious solid food, not bottle propping, not making baby finish the bottle, perhaps adding fish oil and probiotics to the bottles. That's a service that I plan to offer, anyway.

[sonrisaa29]

Originally Posted by julie128

That's terrible. I'm studying to be an LC, and I think it's perhaps even more important to keep working with a mother who is ff because they will need more information on nutritious solid food, not bottle propping, not making baby finish the bottle, perhaps adding fish oil and probiotics to the bottles. That's a service that I plan to offer, anyway.

I think that's awesome And would of loved it if I'd had had a LC/LLL person tell me that. I realize that these organizations are all about making education necessary about BF but I think that they should also be concerned in teaching the correct way to use formula. Isn't that what the WHO says, that someone trained should show you how to use formula, etc?

[boobs4milk]

Originally Posted by nausicaamom

That's still a misrepresentation in my opinion. Heck, even the World Health Organization admits that ABM has a place in infant nutrition and is rightly listed after breastmilk in all of it's forms (from mom, wet nurse, pumped milk). The fact of the matter is that ABM is the only safe alternative that exists outside of BM and while it's not providing the nutrients in BM and carries risks I don't really think it's akin to feeding a babe boxed mac & cheese, unless *maybe* if you are considering BM the equivalent of homemade mac & cheese.

i say that so that women "get" that formula is processed, not that it is the same as, just akin to feeding something equally as processed.

[Da WIC Lady]

Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady

In those cases, medical intervention is warranted. FF is a medical intervention. You know from experience that other interventions can be tried before formula becomes absolutely necessary. There are moms out there that stop at the first sign of trouble and don't get help that aren't fully informed of the risks formula poses. In fact, if a mom uses formula I encourage her to use ready to feed or concentrate since it's sterilized and powder is not. If you want to talk numbers, here's a little something from Pediatrics on the health care costs associated with formula use.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...urcetype=HWCIT

I understand some mothers must use formula for medical reasons. It's the moms who use it just because they can, putting their child at risk for no reason that get me.

Anna

I overlooked this one too. It's the mortality and morbidity study I mentioned earlier...
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...urcetype=HWCIT


The reason there is no study that I can find on how many infants formula saves is because it is inferior to human milk and has known risks. Human milk is the standard against which formula is measured against because human milk is THE standard in infant nutrition.

Anna

[sonrisaa29]

Originally Posted by Da WIC Lady

I overlooked this one too. It's the mortality and morbidity study I mentioned earlier...
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...urcetype=HWCIT


The reason there is no study that I can find on how many infants formula saves is because it is inferior to human milk and has known risks. Human milk is the standard against which formula is measured against because human milk is THE standard in infant nutrition.

Anna

Do you or anyone else have any current research/stats? I am just curious, I know how quickly science moves(as my DH has a BS in Molecular Biology from 1999 and is now considered "expired" by several universities master's programs). Anyways, I really like to find some from 2002 and on, if anyone could provide links. Thanks

[Da WIC Lady]

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

Do you or anyone else have any current research/stats? I am just curious, I know how quickly science moves(as my DH has a BS in Molecular Biology from 1999 and is now considered "expired" by several universities master's programs). Anyways, I really like to find some from 2002 and on, if anyone could provide links. Thanks

That's the latest I can find. Considering some people have to go as far back as the 20's and 30's to find the "latest" research data on certain breastfeeding subtopics, and the lactating breast anatomy model still used in most medical textbooks was developed almost 200 years ago even though new research has better evaluated the lactating breast within the last 10 years and come up with a more accurate view 1997 is pretty recent in the scheme of things. You can do an advanced search of the Pediatrics archive with date restrictions, but not everything may be available for free reading. Same with the Journal of Human Lactation. You can read the abstracts for free, but have to pay $$$ for the meat of the thing.

Anna

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by tanya1976

Is ABM the PC term now for formula? I ask b/c formula really can't be labeled as anything close to breast milk. Just wondering, not being snarky or anything.

It's not the PC term, it's the correct term. Actually, AIM is the correct term IIRC. Officialy, infant formula is "Artificial Infant Milk".