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HTG - Healing the Gut September/October 07 - Page 11

post #201 of 254
MarineWife: I know what you mean about WAPF's stance on bf. I have great respect for Sally Fallon and all that she has to say, but she has tweaked a lot of people (including me) with her anti-bf stance. I heard that she had a difficult time bf'ing herself. I have no idea if that's true, but if it is, I can see how her personal experience might get in the way of sound advice. Still, I think you'd have to be crazy to say that any kind of formula is better than bf'ing!!! There's so much great info from WAPF that when something like that really tweaks me, I just set it aside as NFM - Not For Me!

Dannic: Thanks for the response. I feel so confused at this point that I've gone back to the Health Recovery diet prescribed by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig in "Eat Fat Lose Fat". I'm actually doing okay so far, although I suspect the cow's milk still isn't great for me and I keep using it because my sensitivity is manifesting an addiction. My plan is to go solely on goat's milk eventually, but the milkshare I found only has cow's milk until January or so. Maybe I should just scratch milk altogether for a while? I can still buy goat's milk yogurt and cheese. Thoughts?

I just got turned on to a naturopath in town that does Nutritional Response Testing (muscle testing for foods, basically) so I'm hoping to get some very clear-cut answers from him. We'll see.

It seems like when I eat wheat (only sourdough bread, really) I tolerate it better when it's with fat. Does anyone else experience this?

Sorry, I'm babbling now. Dannic, I'll check out the books you recommended. Hopefully my library will have them. Thanks again!
post #202 of 254
Hi there, I hate to change the subject but I feel I need a little remedial help. Feel free to just pm me if you feel this is a hijack. I've also posted in the allergy forum, but so far no replies...

I'm trying to understand the connection between gut microflora and allergies. I've read quite a bit here, including the HTG cheat sheet and Traditional Foods stuff, but I'm still not quite clear on how it all works. Maybe if I spent a lot more hours reading I would finally get it, but right now my head is spinning.

What I do understand (but correct me if I've got it wrong):
As the theory goes, allergies can be caused by leaky gut syndrome, where bits of (undigested?) food escape through small openings of the lining of the gut which exist due to an imbalance of microflora. These particles are absorbed into the bloodstream, and the immune system interprets them as foreign invaders and mounts a counterattack which is manifested by allergic symptoms such as (in our case) eczema.

What I don't understand:
1. How does gut microflora imbalance cause the openings of the wall of the gut?
2. Is this gut permeability the same as that which exists in an infant under six month, whose gut has yet to "seal up?" So are we saying that normally, a baby's gut would be sealed by six months or so, but some of them aren't, due to the microflora imbalance?
3. I know that gut permeability is the reason the mainstream now advises delaying solids till 4 to 6 months (which I know from our perspective is still very early), instead of sending babies home from the hospital with cereal in their bottles like they used to. Now, almost everyone agrees that the early introduction of solids can lead to food allergies. But am I understanding correctly that damage to the gut can occur at any age, and it isn't necessarily caused by early introduction of solids?
4. And while we're on the topic of introducing solid foods, I know there are some here who believe rice cereal is the evil of all evils. I'm not saying I disagree, but just wondering if someone can explain a little more about why it's evil. Does it cause gut damage?
5. How is candida/yeast related to all of this? If we had a candida problem, would we for sure be seeing yeast rashes / yeast infections, or could it be an underlying cause of eczema even if we don't have the other symptoms? (for the record I've never had a yeast infection, despite occasional courses of antibiotics growing up and I think quite a bit of antibiotics during/after both childbirths, first time related to HELLP syndrome and second time because I was GBS positive :---but DS1 did have what I believe was a yeast-related diaper rash around 6 months and BOY was it nasty...)
post #203 of 254
I know one way that leaky gut can happen is if you have yeast overgrowth, and the yeasties burrow through your intestines and that makes holes. Also, it can happen from the toxins the bad buggies cause, that erode your intestinal lining. I know, too, that food sensitivities can actually cause it -- but I'm not sure under what circumstances.
post #204 of 254
ChilliePepper: Two books that I highly recommend for understanding what you are asking about are Bacteria for Breakfast and Digestive Wellness for Children. Bacteria for Breakfast really goes into the science of the connection between intestinal health and immune response.

As for your questions (according to my understanding so take it as you will):

1. Microflora imbalance means that the parts of the immune system that function in the gut will not work correctly. Thus, if the microflora is imbalanced, it gives the chance for pathogens to grow and flourish- yeast, bad bacteria, and/or parasites. It is these pathogens that eat holes in the intestines. My DD had a c. difficile infection that did it to her.

2. I think the main difference in gut permeability from imbalance versus an infants is that an infants gut is permeable due to natural processes and specifically so mom's immunoglobins can get through. So how the gut is permeated may be different. Yes, normally an healthy infant would have a sealed gut but some don't due to medications or mom's gut problems that are passed on through breastmilk.


3. Gut damage can happen at any age. As for introducing solids, if you introduce before baby is ready then it can shift their gut flora unfavorably and they can be invaded by bad bacteria/yeast/ and/or parasites. Undigested food ferments in the gut and when it does this it feeds the bad bacteria rather then the good, which leads to a snowball of problems. Which leads into #4

4. Rice cereal is looked upon as "evil" because humans do not make amylase until the age of 2 (amylase is the digestive enzyme that would digest the rice). Thus, rice can ferment in the gut and lead to the unbalance again that allows bad bacteria to grow. Rice is also very high in phytase which is an nutrient-inhibitor that blocks the absorption of nutrients in the gut (I know zinc is one of them and there are others). Since my oldest DD has had so many gut problems we are avoiding all grains for a while, and will start with fermented grains (I'm thinking amasake), and then with grains that have been soaked to reduce the phytase. Breastmilk also contains amylase so I'd suggest mixing grains with breastmilk if you do feed them.

5. Yes, it is possible to have yeast without clinical symptoms of a yeast infection or thrush. If you are concerned about this I'd suggest having a comprehensive stool sample done to check for yeasts/bacteria/parasites all at once. Then you'll know what you are fighting. The treatments for the different overgrowths are different. For example, many here follow the Simple Carbohydrate Diet, but for my DD's c. difficile infection the Simple Carbohydrate Diet does not work. We had to treat her with a super strong probiotic (VSL#3) and she went from having eczema over 95% of her body (that oozed and scabed) to being almost 100% clear within a month.

Hope that helps and isn't just more confusing :
post #205 of 254
Tempestjewel, thanks for sharing. This helps a lot. I hope you don't mind me quoting you in the allergy forum. I'm impressed with your success with clearing dd's eczema! I wonder if we should try the probiotic you mentioned? Or would it only be appropriate for someone recovering from a c. difficile (never heard of it) infection?

My kids' eczema is (so far) not too severe. It sticks mostly to the areas on the ankles and feet, behind the knees, and in the crease of the elbows. When I read the posts from so many folks who deal with almost full-body coverage and weeping, oozing patches, I count my blessings. At the same time, I sure would love to get to the bottom of why we have it in our family, and give my boys the gift of clear, itch-free skin! Especially since it has seemed to disturb ds2's sleep lately.

I am also beginning to venture into traditional foods, particularly culturing raw milk, but it's slow going for me because it's hard to find the time and money to buy the raw milk.

Thanks...
post #206 of 254
tempestjewel: We have just found out that my son has c. difficile and we opted to begin with flagyl and s. boulardii. His manifests in loose stools and I just panicked and did the flagyl.
I am wondering about retesting the stool. When did you do it after doing the medicine? I am also considering testing for yeast and basically anything else under the sun just to be sure what we are dealing with.
I am going to get Bacteria for Breakfast TODAY and look into the Digestive Wellness for Children.

Thanks in advance for you expertise!

Brooke
post #207 of 254
tempestjewel ~ thanks so much for that in depth explanation. i especially appreciate the explanation on infant rice cereal and amylase. i never knew that but now i have one more reason in my arsenal for not using it when anyonr asks.
post #208 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookescott88 View Post
tempestjewel: We have just found out that my son has c. difficile and we opted to begin with flagyl and s. boulardii. His manifests in loose stools and I just panicked and did the flagyl.
I am wondering about retesting the stool. When did you do it after doing the medicine? I am also considering testing for yeast and basically anything else under the sun just to be sure what we are dealing with.
I am going to get Bacteria for Breakfast TODAY and look into the Digestive Wellness for Children.

Thanks in advance for you expertise!

Brooke
C. difficile often comes back with conventional treatments (like more then half of all cases return and can become chronic). Just a warning. It can take up to 6 months to clear from stool tests, so we are waiting the full 6 months to retest for the toxins. The S. Boulardii should help (we used this too), but I full-heartedly recommend VSL#3 for treating it if you want it to clear forever. It would help stop the diarrhea too. In the book Bacteria for Breakfast this is the product that the author used to treat her son's c. difficile infection, and it worked for my DD as well.

The cheapest place to get VSL#3 that I've found is straight from the manufacturer. They ship 2-day UPS for free with ice packs (so it does not lose potency coming through the mail). Some pharmacies carry it as well (you don't need to have a prescription to get it, but since it has to be refrigerated it's kept behind the counter)- the VSL#3 website has a search function for pharmacies. Each packet contains 1 tsp of the probiotic (we measured it out) and for my DD it takes 1/2 a packet (we give her a 1/4 tsp 2 x a day). She is 3 years old and 28 pounds. Here is the product website if you are interested:

http://www.vsl3.com/VSL3/default.asp
post #209 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilliepepper View Post
Tempestjewel, thanks for sharing. This helps a lot. I hope you don't mind me quoting you in the allergy forum. I'm impressed with your success with clearing dd's eczema! I wonder if we should try the probiotic you mentioned? Or would it only be appropriate for someone recovering from a c. difficile (never heard of it) infection?
I think VSL#3 is an awesome probiotic for anyone dealing with severe gut damage. Some people have luck helping the gut heal with the Simple Carbohydrate Diet 24-hour goat yogurt, but for us this wasn't an option because DD is VERY allergic to all dairy. We trialed goat's yogurt and it resulted in the worst 24 hours of DD's life as far as eczema, attitude, and even sleep (she woke up screaming several times that night).

A lot of people try to heal the gut through diet first, and if eczema isn't severe this may be sufficient for you (and cheaper). Digestive enzymes would be my first recommendation (there is info on this in the HTG tribe sticky), followed by a diet and probiotics (either through food or supplementation).

If you have a good health care provider running a stool test is something else I again highly recommend because then you know what you are fighting. This is how we knew DD had c. difficile and that she does not produce enough enzymes from her pancreas. We also knew her immune system was not functioning well because they did an IgA count and it was almost nothing (her count was 14 and it should have been at least 400). She also had a high eosinophil blood count which showed her immune system was dealing with severe allergic problems.
post #210 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
tempestjewel ~ thanks so much for that in depth explanation. i especially appreciate the explanation on infant rice cereal and amylase. i never knew that but now i have one more reason in my arsenal for not using it when anyonr asks.
I just remembered that solid foods (including rice cereal) interferes with iron absorption from breastmilk- hence why a lot of children become anemic when they start solids and why they fortify infant rice cereal with iron (though its not well absorbed at ALL from the rice cereal).
post #211 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by tempestjewel View Post
I just remembered that solid foods (including rice cereal) interferes with iron absorption from breastmilk- hence why a lot of children become anemic when they start solids and why they fortify infant rice cereal with iron (though its not well absorbed at ALL from the rice cereal).

Yeah, I knew about the iron. I just read last night about the other minerals. Zinc was one of them, as you said, and I think, magnesium and at least 2 others.

If you don't mind me asking you all to go back a little bit, did your children have symptoms other than eczema that made you think there might be something wrong with their immune systems? As far as I know, only my 4yo has ever had eczema and it was very mild. However, my 4 month old seems to have a sensitivity, not a full blown allergy, to dairy. I recently took my almost 4yo to the doc thinking possible food sensitivities, too, because he always cried and said it hurt to wipe his bum after a BM. The doc, though, didn't think it was food related since he never had a rash with it. He suggested sensory integration disorder, which I really don't think he has. But, I've read snipits here there that neuroligical disorders like autism, SID, ADHD (which my 16yo ds was diagnosed with at 5 or 6) could be caused and/or cured by diet.

I joined this thread more for me because I've just not been feeling very good since I had my baby. I'm now beginning to wonder if my children may have mild gut issues.
post #212 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by tempestjewel View Post
C. difficile often comes back with conventional treatments (like more then half of all cases return and can become chronic). Just a warning. It can take up to 6 months to clear from stool tests, so we are waiting the full 6 months to retest for the toxins. The S. Boulardii should help (we used this too), but I full-heartedly recommend VSL#3 for treating it if you want it to clear forever. It would help stop the diarrhea too. In the book Bacteria for Breakfast this is the product that the author used to treat her son's c. difficile infection, and it worked for my DD as well.

The cheapest place to get VSL#3 that I've found is straight from the manufacturer. They ship 2-day UPS for free with ice packs (so it does not lose potency coming through the mail). Some pharmacies carry it as well (you don't need to have a prescription to get it, but since it has to be refrigerated it's kept behind the counter)- the VSL#3 website has a search function for pharmacies. Each packet contains 1 tsp of the probiotic (we measured it out) and for my DD it takes 1/2 a packet (we give her a 1/4 tsp 2 x a day). She is 3 years old and 28 pounds. Here is the product website if you are interested:

http://www.vsl3.com/VSL3/default.asp


wow! thank you!!!!!
I am going to look into this today.
I had an idea it would not be wiped out by the flagyl.
Considering doing the stool test one month after just to
prove to dh we have to keep up with the gfcf and soy free
diet (things that were really bothering him).

Thanks!
post #213 of 254
Sorry to jump into the conversation without reading all the posts. : Does anyone have experience with blastocystis hominis infection? I've been prescribed Flagyl, but after some reading I believe this is not the way to go. Apparently, b. hominis is extremely difficult to eradicate, and I worry that antibiotics will screw up my system even more. I would appreciate any advice you might have, including book recommedations and natural cures.

I've been trying to heal my gut for over a year and a half! I hope this recent diagnosis (parasites) will prove helpful. I've already been on a strict anti-candida diet and then the SCD, with some success. However, it is obvious I'm missing something. My symptoms are much milder, (as long as I stick to a strict diet) but still present.
post #214 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbanGirl View Post
There's so much great info from WAPF that when something like that really tweaks me, I just set it aside as NFM - Not For Me!
I'm trying to get there but I'm still kind of mad right now. Sally Fallon does have an essay about her breastfeeding experience on the site. I think it's in the Children's Health section, maybe entitled Breastfeeding Saga. I can't remember now cuz I looked at so many things. I have to admit I didn't read much of it. It started out with something like, "I used to be very gung-ho about breastfeeding until..." That was enough for me to know the rest was going to make me angry so I didn't finish it.
post #215 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
If you don't mind me asking you all to go back a little bit, did your children have symptoms other than eczema that made you think there might be something wrong with their immune system
For my oldest DD it was a combo of food allergies and eczema. Her allergies and her eczema just kept getting worse and worse and worse so we knew SOMETHING wasn't right. We went to 3 doctors before we found one who ran the stool test and blood test and we had some answers as to the "why" of it.

For my younger DD, she reacts to eggs and too much dairy in my diet (she is still mostly BF) by getting very red when she has a BM and really rashy if its a bad reaction. If I don't eat those foods, she is fine.
post #216 of 254
Thread Starter 
I'm away from mdc for a few days, and the thread explodes with good questions!! It looks like there are a lot of answers already, but I'll try to add what I know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
I"ve just been reading a little bit more about traditional foods on this site and the Weston A. Price site. Now I'm thinking I should give my kids who can drink cow's milk whole milk instead of skim or fat free. I still have not been able to find any raw milk in my area. Is organic, pastuerized whole milk better than nothing or should I just not bother with milk at all if I can't get it raw? Also, is it possible my BF baby could tolerate my consumption of cow's milk if it's whole instead of fat free?
first, do you know about www.realmilk.com for finding raw milk sources?
second, I don't know if it's better than nothing, but grassfed is more important than organic. You can still have feedlot organic milk, and that's probably not a very good choice. Oh, and non-homogonized is better, too.
as for a bf baby tolerating milk, I've heard of raw milk being tolerated over pasteurized, and cultured over fresh (yogurt or kefir), but never whole over fat free.

Quote:
On a slightly other note, I am now very disturbed and upset with the Weston A. Price Foundation for their comments on breastfeeding.
The message I got when I read SF's bf'ing story was that if you eat SAD, you are likely passing on nutrient deficiencies - so you'd be better off offering raw grassfed formula. But if you're eating SAD, there's likely no chance that you'll be making homemade raw formula.
post #217 of 254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
Me again. Can you all tell me more about sprouted or fermented grains and breads? I really don't have the time to try this myself yet. How do I tell if I'm getting the right stuff at the store? If it says sourdough bread, is that enough or does it have to say something special?
I don't think there's anything special to look for - but you'd want whole grain as well. If you want to be sure, you could check the ingredients and be suspect if it says yeast, or any dark sugar/coloring like molasses.

Quote:
Can I buy regular oatmeal from the grocery store and soak it overnight to get this effect?
I think you can, but steel cut oats are best. Once the grains are processed, the phytase (which you're activating to get rid of phytic acid) starts to break down really quickly. And steel cut are less processed. Also, I've heard oats don't have much phytase in the first place, so you'd do well to throw in a couple of tablespoons of freshly ground wheat or rye. A coffee grinder works really well. Or just mix in some rye flakes if you want to stick with quick and easy.
post #218 of 254
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilliepepper View Post
2. Is this gut permeability the same as that which exists in an infant under six month, whose gut has yet to "seal up?" So are we saying that normally, a baby's gut would be sealed by six months or so, but some of them aren't, due to the microflora imbalance?
rotavirus also causes the gut to open up. and i think the gut doesn't actually finish closing till around 2 years old. so then I guess it's really just starting at 6 months.
Quote:
3. I know that gut permeability is the reason the mainstream now advises delaying solids till 4 to 6 months (which I know from our perspective is still very early), instead of sending babies home from the hospital with cereal in their bottles like they used to. Now, almost everyone agrees that the early introduction of solids can lead to food allergies. But am I understanding correctly that damage to the gut can occur at any age, and it isn't necessarily caused by early introduction of solids?
gut damage can happen at any time, but early introduction of solids is a pretty sure-fire way to get yourself in trouble, digestion-wise
Quote:
4. And while we're on the topic of introducing solid foods, I know there are some here who believe rice cereal is the evil of all evils. I'm not saying I disagree, but just wondering if someone can explain a little more about why it's evil. Does it cause gut damage?
someone mentioned how the iron interferes with the iron in breastmilk. Not only is the added iron not-well-absorbed, it interferes with the bm iron, so baby gets less from milk. AND any iron that's sitting around, not being absorbed feeds the bad bacteria, encouraging more imbalances. I think this goes for whole foods that are high in low-bioavailability iron as well.
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/g...reastfed-baby/
and http://www.mothering.com/sections/ex...hive.html#iron
post #219 of 254
Wow, there is alot of good dialogue going on! We've eliminated all dairy, soy, processed foods (except some occassional refried beans and sprouted corn tortillas), sugar (we are using only honey and stevia, and then only sparringly), and anything with additives, and gluten. I'm thinking that once we get rid of the yeasts and heal dd's (and ours) gut that we'll be able to add in some raw and cultured goats' milk and some low gluten. I think we'll leave out sugar entirely and the additives() and soy as well. The way she reacts, I'm thinking that the reaction is just as much from the candida thing. (To the grains...) And from what I'm reading about gluten and wheat, I think we'll go back to kamut and spelt afterwards since they aren't as hybridized and high in gluten as our wheat supply...
My dd's eyes are looking much better these days...but I'm nervous about the holidays. I'm going to try to make a pumpkin pie with a nut crust and swap cream for coconut milk...wish me luck!
I know I'm feeling better as well.
I just found out the the excema around my ring finger is an allergy to gold...my wedding ring! really want to get rid of that one as well!:
I'm ordering Bacteria for Breakfast ASAP.
post #220 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
someone mentioned how the iron interferes with the iron in breastmilk. Not only is the added iron not-well-absorbed, it interferes with the bm iron, so baby gets less from milk. AND any iron that's sitting around, not being absorbed feeds the bad bacteria, encouraging more imbalances. I think this goes for whole foods that are high in low-bioavailability iron as well.
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/g...reastfed-baby/
and http://www.mothering.com/sections/ex...hive.html#iron
So how to tell if the iron is bioavailable or not?

I had a platinum wedding band and a platinum and diamond engagement ring for years. They got lost this past May, and I haven't been able to find affordable replacements that are platinum -- it's such a trendy metal now, ten years after we bought the originals they would probably be worth easily double what we paid for them. All this is to say, I would suggest you try platinum for a replacement ring. I'm allergic to a lot of metals, but platinum doesn't seem to bother me. My allergy makes me expensive, I guess!
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