Vax and Autism, ages?

[gretelmom]

For those of you who have researched the link between Vaccinations and Autisms, POST-Thimerasol, what are the most vulnerable years? From everything I've heard, the vast majority of autism is something they think was always there in the child, but not noticed until language/social stages were missed.

But I know there are cases of regressive Autism, the type where a "normal" kid begins losing skills. I had always heard the link to MMR at 18 months.

So if you're giving individual shots, like we are giving just the measles vax, at 30 months, is that Autism risk decreased?

If you do give a child a vaccination, is there a window when you start to see signs of the regressive form of the Autism?

I try to research this stuff, but honestly, there seems to be no really documented link, POST-thimerasol, btw vaccines and Autism.

So I'm scared and confused right now, wondering if every little thing my son is doing after his shot is a sign of autism developing, or is it just tiredness and crankiness. Help!

[granolamomma]

First, there are no studies or links or formal correlation. (Well, I could be wrong; most mamas here have studies they pull out of their magic libraries. )

Secondly, and I mean this respectfully, but if you really truly think it's highly possible that you could get autism from vaccinating for a disease that will statistically either be manageable or will eventually go away, I just can't see why you'd even RISK vaccinating. And that's just simply addressing the logic as I just read it.

The vax=autism thing is massively complicated, and even if it could be broken down into vulnerable windows, I still can't imagine that it could be factored into the decision equally. If you measure the weight of the consequences of autism vs disease, the two just seem incomparable.

And I don't mean this snarkily, I'm just shocked at the forest-for-the-trees view I see that as, despite that I really don't think it works that way.

[Science Mom]

Gretelmom, There are genetic forms of Autism that cause regression such as Rhett Syndrome and will occur regardless of if or when the MMR vaccine is administered. There is no link between MMR and autism and if you believe there is then I would have to agree with granolamomma. Actually, the most comprehensive discussion thus far about thiomersal, MMR and autism can be found here:
ftp://autism.uscfc.uscourts.gov/autism/index.html

SM

[gretelmom]

Originally Posted by granolamomma

First, there are no studies or links or formal correlation. (Well, I could be wrong; most mamas here have studies they pull out of their magic libraries. )

Secondly, and I mean this respectfully, but if you really truly think it's highly possible that you could get autism from vaccinating for a disease that will statistically either be manageable or will eventually go away, I just can't see why you'd even RISK vaccinating. And that's just simply addressing the logic as I just read it.

The vax=autism thing is massively complicated, and even if it could be broken down into vulnerable windows, I still can't imagine that it could be factored into the decision equally. If you measure the weight of the consequences of autism vs disease, the two just seem incomparable.

And I don't mean this snarkily, I'm just shocked at the forest-for-the-trees view I see that as, despite that I really don't think it works that way.

Here's the problem: there is so much hype about shots and autism that there is a total panic over giving shots. This has done a disservice to us all, in many ways, because you cannot discuss your concerns without others telling you you're either 1. misinformed or 2. foolish for giving your kid the shot to start with.

I actually HAVE done an enormous amount of research, heard speakers, etc on the environmental contributers to Autism development. The big problem with the available research is that it does not often include regressive forms of Autism.

Since I know that very valid theories often begin in groups like this one, discussion groups among non-professionals, I came to you guys trying to discern what the THEORIES were, since, as I stated above, I know there is no, or very little substantiated, scientific evidence about environmental componants of regressive Autism development.

Here's what I've concluded: I'm not going to take questions like this to mdc. Honestly, this is where I thought I would find support, even if I'm having a moment of late-night overreacting. I do find support with diapering, breastfeeding, Toddlers, pregnancy, health issues forums here.

The sad news is, there are very few options for moms who want ot hear the "alternative" to the doctors or the CDC, and for me, there is now one less.

[polishprinsezz]

i was told by my son's ped. that there is a belief that the mmr booster shot could be the culprit.( given before entering kindergarten) lead and mercury poison can lead to autism. i would rather take my chances with mumps or measles than autism. my son has lead poisoning. we will not purposely shoot chemicals into our son that can lead to irreversible damage. since i am not a scientist i just have to go with my heart and gut instinct, and some research too.

[granolamomma]

Oh for heaven's sake, I was questioning the entire thought process, and I was doing it respectfully. It appeared to me that you were lumping a possible consequence of autism as a side effect to vaccinating. I don't judge if you vaccinate, I was just surprised.

Is there a window? Yes, I think so. But in my opinion, if your child regresses to autistic tendencies after a vaccine, then it's not actually autism, that child has just become systemically toxic. Some people handle vaxes (and other environmental toxins) better than others. But I personally don't think the vast majority of people who regress from vaccines are actually autistic. They should reorganize the diagnostic process. Again, this is my opinion as an autie parent. I don't take lightly the reality of living with a child with autism, regardless of the reason, so I mean no disrespect for those who feel differently.

I'd hate for you to immediately give up on this board. The knowledge here is invaluable. But no, the majority on this board are not supportive of vaccinating - just the becoming educated about it. We feel just as strongly about protecting people we care about as you most likely do when making your decisions.

It's not always the self-righteous elitist judgment that it appears.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by polishprinsezz

i was told by my son's ped. that there is a belief that the mmr booster shot could be the culprit.( given before entering kindergarten) lead and mercury poison can lead to autism. i would rather take my chances with mumps or measles than autism. my son has lead poisoning. we will not purposely shoot chemicals into our son that can lead to irreversible damage. since i am not a scientist i just have to go with my heart and gut instinct, and some research too.

Are they saying that the mmr booster is a major cause, as opposed to the the first shot that kids receive?

I have to say that this doesn't correlate with my own experience as a special educator. I've worked with many families of children with autism. Many of them report that in retrospect their children showed signs from birth. Others talk about a decline/loss of skills (sometimes in terms of some early signs of inflexibility and sensory issues, coupled with a dramatic loss of language and enagement, othertimes just a sudden or gradual loss in kids that previously seemed typical). However, in every case there were clear signs (with out without a diagnosis) by the child's 4th birthday. I have trouble believing that a shot given at 4 or 5 is a major cause.

I'm not saying that in an unvaccinated child a mmr shot at 4 or 5 couldn't cause problems, but an mmr booster (which is not the first mmr shot kids receive) is not the culprit. That could be because kids who are vulnerable to mmr were already damaged by the 1st shot, or because the mmr shot doesn't cause autism.

I'm generally of the belief that the mmr vaccine is not a contributor to autism, but I can understand why many people believe otherwise. However, I can't really understand the logic that it's the mmr booster at 4 or 5 that's the problem.

[lokidoki]

IMO ~ again in IMO only not saying that this is a proven theory ~ the MMR is the last straw so to speak in several cases (like my nephew). The children are developing normally and moving right along being fully vaxed ~ and then the MMR is what pushed them over the edge.

As for the thimerosal connection ~ it never was in the MMR vax. I have seen several theories or such that the burden of mercury and other toxins is what opened the body up for the damage from the MMR vax.

Be that as it may ~ this MMR shot/autism thing is extremely murky water. I think there is some connection to the overall thing but obviously vaxes are not the only component.

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by gretelmom

For those of you who have researched the link between Vaccinations and Autisms, POST-Thimerasol, what are the most vulnerable years? From everything I've heard, the vast majority of autism is something they think was always there in the child, but not noticed until language/social stages were missed.

But I know there are cases of regressive Autism, the type where a "normal" kid begins losing skills. I had always heard the link to MMR at 18 months.

So if you're giving individual shots, like we are giving just the measles vax, at 30 months, is that Autism risk decreased?

If you do give a child a vaccination, is there a window when you start to see signs of the regressive form of the Autism?

I try to research this stuff, but honestly, there seems to be no really documented link, POST-thimerasol, btw vaccines and Autism.

So I'm scared and confused right now, wondering if every little thing my son is doing after his shot is a sign of autism developing, or is it just tiredness and crankiness. Help!

Gretelmom,

First off, welcome to vax forum. Also, I recall you posted something awhile ago and I sent you a PM. I hope you got it.


Lets cut to the chase.....the odds are that your son is tired and cranky.


As for older kids getting shots and developing autism I do not know of any study... does not mean it does not exist, I just don't know of it.

However, I will ask around and see if I can find something of interest on that topic.


by the way, DDT, Tobacco, Asbestos.... if you look you will find 'studies' that prove none of them injure people. ...I believe one day the same will be said for all these NONcausal studies between vax and autism. just my opinion.

[Tracy]

oh, i sent you another pm.

[Science Mom]

Originally Posted by lokidoki

IMO ~ again in IMO only not saying that this is a proven theory ~ the MMR is the last straw so to speak in several cases (like my nephew). The children are developing normally and moving right along being fully vaxed ~ and then the MMR is what pushed them over the edge.

As for the thimerosal connection ~ it never was in the MMR vax. I have seen several theories or such that the burden of mercury and other toxins is what opened the body up for the damage from the MMR vax.

Be that as it may ~ this MMR shot/autism thing is extremely murky water. I think there is some connection to the overall thing but obviously vaxes are not the only component.

Lokidoki, you qualified your statement so I am not attacking you by asking this; what is the mechanism by which the MMR vaccine could cause autism and also with and without thimerosal? I am interested because I have seen this statement repeatedly (by many) but with no physiological explanation.

SM

[Momily]

Originally Posted by lokidoki

IMO ~ again in IMO only not saying that this is a proven theory ~ the MMR is the last straw so to speak in several cases (like my nephew). The children are developing normally and moving right along being fully vaxed ~ and then the MMR is what pushed them over the edge.

As for the thimerosal connection ~ it never was in the MMR vax. I have seen several theories or such that the burden of mercury and other toxins is what opened the body up for the damage from the MMR vax.

Be that as it may ~ this MMR shot/autism thing is extremely murky water. I think there is some connection to the overall thing but obviously vaxes are not the only component.

I know many people believe this -- but are they usually referring the the MMR booster (at 4 or 5) or to an earlier MMR shot?

How old was your nephew when he began to show the symptoms you feel are due to vaccine damage?

[Tracy]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Lokidoki, you qualified your statement so I am not attacking you by asking this; what is the mechanism by which the MMR vaccine could cause autism and also with and without thimerosal? I am interested because I have seen this statement repeatedly (by many) but with no physiological explanation.

SM

lokidoki I'm sure will have her own response.

but perhaps it is the R in mmr.


what do you know about rubella history and autism, sm? you certainly may know more than me that is for sure but there is some history between the two.

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Science Mom

Lokidoki, you qualified your statement so I am not attacking you by asking this; what is the mechanism by which the MMR vaccine could cause autism and also with and without thimerosal? I am interested because I have seen this statement repeatedly (by many) but with no physiological explanation.

SM

I am not sure what the mechanism is that causes it other than to say that I have seen it happen before my own eyes. I do wish more studies would be done to clarify what exactly (if anything...I, of course believe there is a connection) is causing the issues. I do believe the MMR is what pushes them over the threshhold. I have read several theories about why this is the case ~ but not many/any studies relate to this. As for the thimerosal...I think it is a convenient scape goat. It is easy to say now "all thimerosal is out so the vaxes are safe" ~ when aluminum is quite alarming. Who knows what neurotoxic effect these ingredients are having on our children because there is very little done in the way of safety studies proving that it is completely safe. The only statement I have seen is just that it has been in use for 70 years ~ fat lot of good that does when we are having more chronic health issues now than ever before (diabetes, autism, cancer, etc.). We also have never vaxed our children anywhere near what they are vaxed now ~ a practice that has never been proven safe...and recently MK posted a study she found with regards to the amounts of aluminum our children might be getting with the current vax schedule...and it was alarming.

My own belief would be the build up of all of the toxins in the system ~ perhaps children to whom this has happened have bodies that cannot completely flush the toxins that are in vaccines so they continue to build...and the MMR just happens to be the last straw (in that it could just be what pushes the flood waters over...or it could be the culprit...who knows).

As for my nephew ~ his regression happened between 18 months and 2 years...slowly (after his first MMR). On his 3 year birthday (in June) my sister began to go back thru his developmental milestones written in his babybook and started to realize just how much he had lost. What at first she had amounted to perhaps learning a new milestone so he had stopped talking, etc. turned into he lost the ability to make animal sounds (he had known monkey, cow, etc. and stopped completely until just recently), at 3 years old he can only count to 3...and cannot carry on much independent conversation (he can ask for things...but mostly parrots) and several other key things. My sister's FP has diagnosed him as a vax reaction given the basis of information she had ~ and the connections ~ and has said no more vaxes...and has referred her to some specialists.

[Deborah]

http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/330/7491/558-a#102393, 2 Apr 2005

This one is interesting. Clifford Miller is a British solicitor who has become very involved in the MMR question.

It is also evidence of the existence of a dechallenge/rechallenge case series at a population level. Now that is beyond any doubt powerful. The dechallenge occurred by taking MMR away with a positive dip in autism on a population level. This was followed by a rechallenge with a positive rise in autism by reintroducing the single vaccines in place of the MMR. The single vaccines were meant to be administered at 4 week intervals, but according to an NHS publication, Japanese children received them on the same day.

[sbgrace]

Gretelmom, I think many cases of true regressive autism are metabolic conditions. Some of those metabolic conditions can be set off by viral illnesses, stress on the system in some way, including live vaccines. My son had mild autism from birth in retrospect but did temporarily regress somewhat around age two. He wasn't vaccinated but he was under physical stress at that time with illness and some diet things that probably weren't best for him metabolic wise. He didn't really regress in the sense often described--he didn't lose language for example--but he did decline developmentally for a while. Any child who regresses whether with autism or another situation needs to have metabolics examined.

My son has a metabolic condition we now know and his geneticist said no live vaccines for him. No problem--not doing them anyway--but I'm so glad I didn't. So in that case it wouldn't matter the age the vaccine was given.

If I'm reading right, though, you are concerned about your son possibly showing signs. Is that right? How old is he? I could give you some links that might help you determine whether to be concerned. http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html Here is one--you answer questions and it gives you a score determining whether or not there is concern.

I am also responding because my son had some really mild signs of autism (pointed late at about 14 months, not consistently responding to his name) and then around 18 to 20 months or so--before 24 months we started seeing more things but he was also soooo tired then. Extremely tired. I now know that the tired stuff was a sign that things weren't right metabolically. My son had other signs of metabolic stuff too and those signs can vary. If your son has anything else going on or you want to be more specific about what you are seeing that is concerning I'm happy to help or give you my opinion.

[nataliachick7]

read this article:

Article: Measles Vaccine Undeniably Linked to Autism -

[WillyMom]

Nataliachick7,
Interesting article, has it been peer reviewed? Athough I wouldn't brag about results matching Dr.Wakefield since 10 of his 13 co-authors have retracted their names his orignal 1998 study.

Lokidoki,
Aluminum is ingested every day and to the tune of 0.7mg a day for a 6mo-12mo.
A.T. Pennington and S.A. Schoen , Estimates of dietary exposure to aluminum. Food Addit. Contam. 12 (1995), while the amount average amount in a vaccine is about 0.25-0.5mg.

[gretelmom]

Originally Posted by nataliachick7

read this article:

Article: Measles Vaccine Undeniably Linked to Autism -

I have concerns about this article. Maybe I"m not understanding it.

Here are my thoughts:
1. If 85% of kids w/autism have the vaccine strain of antibody in their guts, what is the number of kids w/o autism who have it in their guts? See what I mean? What is alarming about this? I need more info.

2. Do we have other antibodies in our guts? Is the issue here that we're not supposed to have antibodies in our guts? Or is the issue that these kids had the vaccine's antibody as opposed to a naturally obtained one?

3. How does that number, 85%, correlate with the number of kids vax'd with the Measles vax?

4. Also, why does it need to enter the gut in order to get into the bloodstream. If it had been ingested orally, I could see why, but injected, there are many other tissues that could deliver it to the bloodstream and then the brain?

See what I mean? What's the the real significance of that strain being in the gut?

Here's an important thing to remember when we do research: Correlation does not equal causation. In undergrad, I heard a great story to explain this phrase:

If I told you that people with smaller shoe sizes had lower basic math scores, you may object saying "how could shoe size affect math abilities?" Well, it doesn't. But the general trend is that children have smaller shoes than adults, and children have less math skills than adults. Therefore, there is a correlation. But one is not causing the other.

HOWEVER, correlation often leads us to the important questions that can help us determine causation. We learned this with the MMR question, was Autism showing up at age 12-18 mos because of the shot, or because that's when Autism tended to show up regardless of vax status? Or, conversely, we could ask "why does Autism tend to show up at this age?" and give us the chance to look at the correlating changes, ie MMR, or maybe introduction of highly allergenic foods, or maybe even that's when its recommended to take your child off Breast Milk (or formula) and put them on whole milk?

I don't think those things are necesarrily linked, but the correlation allows us to look at what might be causing.

I just wanted to clarify the foundation of why I so fiercely examine studies and reports on studies! I often want MORE MORE MORE info!! Its not to question what the Mamas on here believe.

[WillyMom]

Gretelmom,
If you read that link closely, it's not 85% of kids with autism, its 85% of the autistic kids he studied. There is no mention of how many non-autistic kids have the virus in their guts, which as you stated would be an important control.
Also, if you contract measels do you end up autistic?