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Vax and Autism, ages? - Page 5

post #81 of 118
just figured out how to use the quoty thing....

see this here post sm on page 2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
You are not discussing CRS induced teratogenesis for it is rather difficult to mount an autoimmune response without a functional immune system; elementary really. I believe you are referring to acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADC) and there are much better references for it that were conducted in this century. The clinical profile for ADC is quite profound as is the immunological profile and patients respond to corticosteroid therapy quite well. Again, if what you are implying has been responsible for autism then the so-called epidemic would have been observed beginning in the mid 1960's and every rubella epidemic prior to that. Rubella disease post-natally does not cause autism so how do you propose that the vaccine does?

SM
this was not your original post.

because i had not figured the quote thing, i had to c & P it to a blank email which i stuck in my yahoo account.

See this here"
Quote:
Last edited by Science Mom : Yesterday at 01:37 AM.
don't tell me you didn't ask me if I had ever seen Lorenzo's oil, because you did. you went back and editted your post. shame I hadn't got the hang of the quote thing before.

now that i have i will make sure that i use it.

not that it will probably make a difference.
post #82 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yabba kina
so asking me this question: *** Do you know if the difference between the vaccine reaction demyelination and natural infections was ever been followed long term? *** seems odd.
There are numerous studies and one that I know has even followed rubella infected children for 50 years.

Quote:
you also ask *Have you ever seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil?*** answer, yes, but that has nothing to do with demyelination from virus or vaccine.
Didn't ask, don't care and don't know what a movie has to do with this discussion.

Quote:
you then refer to me saying this: ***anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.***
Yet in the case of rubella disease/vaccination, it doesn't.
Quote:
what more needs to be added? if you are a science mom you know the words biological plausibility. if you want to look at all the possible mechanisms properly, you will know you can’t stop with demyelination. you might want to add disseminated vasculomyelinopathy to the storyline, coz it often goes along with demyelination. start with an old paper by charles m poser, acta neurologica scandinavic 1969, then work forwards.
Thanks but when it comes to matters of immunobiology I prefer more recent studies for the molecular techniques have moved out of the dark ages. Not that older studies are not without their merits.

Quote:
then you say *** You are not discussing CRS induced teratogenesis for it is rather difficult to mount an autoimmune response without a functional immune system; elementary really.***

interesting. recent research (done to justify vaccinating mothers in pregnancy) alleges that intrauterine fetuses have a far more mature and more functioning immune system than previously thought. presumably you know of that research as well.
Yes I do and first trimester fetuses have very rudimentary 'pre-immune systems', if you will. It is not until 28 weeks and beyond that fetuses demonstrate clonal expansion and differentiation of antigen-specific mature CD8+ T-lymphocytes. Both B and T cell responses can be observed in the early third trimester but expression is highly variable. Fetal immunoglobulin secreting plasma cells appear in a step-wise fashion beginning at 15 weeks gestation. It is now as it was pre-vaccine era and first trimester fetuses are just as susceptible to rubella-mediated CRS. Furthermore, in-utero rubella virus infections reveal noninflammatory necrosis of affected tissues, not demyelination.
Don't really know what to say to this except that your latter statement flies in the face of well-established and universally-accepted medico-scientific fact and is not limited to CRS.

Quote:
you are right. it wasn't me discussing teratogenesis. you are the one who got side-tracked onto organogenesis. the title of this thread is vaccines and autism isn’t it? teratogenesis has nothing to do with autism.
Quote:
a kiddo doesn’t have to have ADC to have demyelination. it can be subclinical. and if measles also can have the same effect, then the problems could be worse. also with kiddos, the process of myelination is the important factor. you are the science mom. tell me sm. when does a kiddo's brain finish myelinating? (yes, i know the answer) what might happen if you give a kiddo a shot when their brains aren't myelinated? and if they have an immune system problem? or are stressed?
Again, there are specific virologic and protein markers in the CNS that are indicators of pathological changes even with sub-clinical infections such as T cell clonal expansion against myelin basic protein (MBP) and elevated anti-rubella virus antibody levels. Additionally, MRI and CT scans demonstrate profound abnormalities with encephalomyeltis even in asymptomatic or sub-clinical cases and are associated with MS or GBS-like diseases.
Quote:
what about the subclinical profile? rubella as a virus, in a child, can cause demyelination, and encephalopathy. encephalopathy can result in autism. any virus which can result in demyelination and encephalopathy (and vasculomyelinopathy), and therefore autism, when made into a vaccine, and combined with other viruses, can in a susceptible child, theoretically cause autism.
Well again, this would have been observed when wild-type rubella was circulating at a higher rate in the pre-vaccine era and again during the vaccination campaigns associated with the vaccine strain.

Quote:
not rocket science.
You're right, it is far, far more complex.

SM
okay. i've put this here, because i've got to feed horses and take kids to school.

i will be back to deal with this.

lesson learned. at least this way, the sands can't shift while my back is turned.

: : :
post #83 of 118
actually, if you look at page 2, scatershoot is the one that asked if you had seen the movie lorenzos oil.
post #84 of 118
sorry sm, I owe you an apology.

it was scattershoot that asked me about lorenzo's oil not you.

I apologise.
post #85 of 118
while I'm feeding horses sm... you asked me
Quote:
Do you know if the difference between the vaccine reaction demyelination and natural infections was ever been followed long term?
and your reply when i called you on it was:

Quote:
There are numerous studies and one that I know has even followed rubella infected children for 50 years.
since then, you have a list, and don't like old studies that much, even as a baseline, then perhaps you can post a list of the studies you consider worth discussing, rather than ask people to provide their own references while you sit silently on your own list.

you say
Quote:
Thanks but when it comes to matters of immunobiology I prefer more recent studies for the molecular techniques have moved out of the dark ages. Not that older studies are not without their merits.
so before I answer any further issues you raise, and since you think this is a lot more complicated than rocket science, you set the framework, and then we will discuss.

i like to deal with a firm foundation, not something where parties can wriggle out by saying "i don't like that study" for whatever reason.

so lets discuss the science in a clear way with easy words so that everyone here can understand. okay?
post #86 of 118
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/default.htm Go to the website for the 21 active links. They are all on the same site (that happens with certain website types) with the same url or I would have provided them separately here.

Ethylmercury Shmethylmercury

I just finished reading David Kirby’s thoughtful, well-written and compelling book, Evidence of Harm. Anyone who hasn’t gotten their hands on this book should order the updated paperback version as soon as it is published, sometime this month.

Unless you have been on Mars for the past few years, you are aware of a huge controversy surrounding the use of thimerosal in vaccines and the possibility that it has been a cause of autism. In his book, Kirby provides a detailed and riveting account of the controversy.

Mercury is a known neurotoxin, often said to be the second most toxic substance on the planet.

One of the weirdest aspects of this battle has been the fact that the “experts” have put themselves in the ridiculous position of saying pregnant women and children should not eat certain mercury-tainted fish or use mercury thermometers, but it is okay to inject mercury directly into the bodies of babies.

All this because ethylmercury (the form of mercury found in thimerosal) and methylmercury are different.

Of course taking this position is absurd. In the absence of proof that ethylmercury is safe, the assumption should be that it might be unsafe. One could go so far as to say that in all likelihood, merely because it is mercury, it probably IS unsafe and should be treated as such.

In fact, “mercury in any form is toxic”. So why was any mercury in any form ever allowed in vaccines?

The FDA, as reported in the Federal Register, even declared thimerosal to be unsafe in 1982, calling for its removal in over-the-counter products. Why didn’t they do the same for vaccines, which unlike the topical products removed are injected directly into the body?

Meanwhile, more recently (2004), the Institute of Medicine (IOM) attempted to close the book on this issue, in spite of compelling biological evidence that thimerosal is likely involved. Why would they use epidemiological data which in the case of their autism data did not include any comparisons to children exposed to zero mercury in vaccines? Why did they do this when it contradicted their own earlier worrisome (and until recently secret) data that did include such comparisons? And why did they use this suspect epidemiological data to trump solid biological evidence?

How could they so cavalierly dismiss evidence that not only implicated thimerosal in autism, but explained how thimerosal could damage some children and not others?

Moreover, if they were so enamored with epidemiological studies, why didn't the “experts” insist that studies comparing the vaccinated to the never vaccinated be conducted? (Instead they lumped those with allegedly zero exposure to thimerosal with those with as much as 37.5 micrograms.)

Even if the evidence against there being a relationship, however, was as strong as the IOM contended, there was still no reason to discourage research into this area, as the IOM so callously did. After all, little is ever “proved” in science. Evidence, more or less strong or weak, is usually simply presented which supports or contradicts a hypothesis. Even under the best of circumstances, one might never be able to say with absolute certainty that the mercury in thimerosal causes autism. That doesn’t mean, however, that evidence does not exist.

Or that it doesn’t cause autism.

But there is evidence. And plenty of it.

Aside from Kirby’s outstanding book outlining the evidence both for and against thimerosal being linked to vaccines, among the growing number of studies and reports confirming a possible link are the following:

Children with autism appear to be unable to rid their bodies of the mercury that they are exposed to. (Deth et al, Holmes et al)

Some populations that have not been exposed to vaccines experience little, if any, autism. (Olmsted 1, 2)

Thimerosal has been shown to be toxic to brain cells.
(Haley)

Mice injected with thimerosal develop autism-like symptoms.
(Hornig)

Some children who have mercury chelated (chemically bound and removed) from their bodies show a reduction in autism symptoms. (Rimland)

“Children with autism excrete more mercury than controls.” (Bradstreet via Congressman Dave Weldon)

Coincident with the decline in thimerosal use in vaccinations for infants and children, the incidence of autism appears to be declining as well, at least in California. (safeMinds)

One of the most frustrating aspects to all this is how often an "instant" study is published purporting to vindicate thimerosal. Any such "study", coming right on the heels of a study demonstrating an adverse thimerosal effect, should be met with skepticism.
In an earlier column I examined one of them and found the arguments to be seriously flawed.

There is something mercury-contaminated fishy about all this.

A lot is riding on the so-called experts convincing the public that the mercury in thimerosal is safe. Little things like “confidence” in the immunization program and liability for damage caused.

Beyond the clamor, though, about vaccines and autism lies a broader, even more ominous question. When something this obvious is fought so hard by the “experts”, what does it say about the other vaccine-associated side effects they fight so hard to discredit, like the relationship between vaccines and SIDS, to name just one?* What does it say about their credibility in these other crucial areas?

Whether or not other vaccine-associated adverse effects are similarly being ignored and dismissed, with the autism issue at least, there are just too many parents convinced that vaccines played a role. And they simply cannot be made to go away.

More and more, the science is suggesting they may be right. No matter what the “experts” say.

*If you are interested in learning more about the vast array of possible vaccine side effects and why many of us remain concerned, despite “expert” protestations to the contrary, click here.

by Sandy Gottstein (Mintz)

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." - Wendell Phillips (1811-1884), paraphrasing John Philpot Curran (1808)

Sandy Gottstein (aka Mintz) is the publisher of the website "Vaccination News", and writer of the columns "Scandals" and "Out of Control".

Past Scandals and Out of Control.

©Copyright 2006 by Sandy Gottstein. All Rights Reserved. This content may be copied in full ONLY with copyright, contact, creation, authorship, and information intact (including all links), without specific permission, and ONLY when used in a not-for-profit format. If any other use is desired, permission in writing from Sandy Gottstein is required.
post #87 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
Also, if you contract measels do you end up autistic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretelmom View Post
Yeah, obviously contracting measles does not give people autism, as you're pointing out.
What makes you say that? Autism expert Lorna Wing has said that measles encephalitis can cause autism. In fact any brain damage can cause symptoms of autism.
post #88 of 118
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
Lokidoki,
Aluminum is ingested every day and to the tune of 0.7mg a day for a 6mo-12mo.
A.T. Pennington and S.A. Schoen , Estimates of dietary exposure to aluminum. Food Addit. Contam. 12 (1995), while the amount average amount in a vaccine is about 0.25-0.5mg.
I have heard this before, the assertion that we ingest many toxins form our environment anyway in today's world. However, I think there must be a difference when you ingest something through your digestive system, versus it being injected directly into your blood. It seems like through the digestive system, it could still be not good, but maybe it would be filtered out differently.
Just a thought.
post #89 of 118
Quote:
I have heard this before, the assertion that we ingest many toxins form our environment anyway in today's world. However, I think there must be a difference when you ingest something through your digestive system, versus it being injected directly into your blood. It seems like through the digestive system, it could still be not good, but maybe it would be filtered out differently.
Just a thought.
You are either blessed with native brilliance or you have educated yourself marvelously, which is probably the same thing. (I can say that because I was mentored by a genius and can't take credit for much of what I know myself.) Anything ingested goes through a massive system of filtration. Anything injected goes into the unprotected blood circulation system and bypasses all of these safety filters. It goes straight into the general blood circulation and has direct access to the blood-forming organs. It's a whole different scenario with injected toxins. I only wish I had your good sense when I let myself be coerced into a tetanus vaccination for my 5-year-old daughter after a minor injury that nearly killed my whole family from the resulting contagious flesh-eating bacterial/viral infection. (I don't remember which it was. I only remember the excruciating pain for two months.)
post #90 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
and breastmilk? do we know what the results would be for moms who have been given rubella vax and breastfeed babies?

i don't think you know but I'm older than a lot of people here and breastfeeding in the early sixties in america was a rare bird. trust me i know.

i remember john kennedy's funeral too.
Tracy, I got a bit side-tracked so to answer your question: A high number of women do shed vaccine virus in breastmilk (about 45-68%) when administered the vaccine post-partum. Vaccine virus or antigen can be recovered in about half of those breastfed infants and of those, about 25% show transient seroconversion to rubella virus with no clinical disease.

SM
post #91 of 118
sm ... please when you have time, could you read this post and place your list here for discussion:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...8&postcount=85
post #92 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
Tracy, I got a bit side-tracked so to answer your question: A high number of women do shed vaccine virus in breastmilk (about 45-68%) when administered the vaccine post-partum. Vaccine virus or antigen can be recovered in about half of those breastfed infants and of those, about 25% show transient seroconversion to rubella virus with no clinical disease.

SM

SM, do you have a link? thank you.
post #93 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
SM, do you have a link? thank you.
Sure thing:
http://tinyurl.com/39omx4
http://tinyurl.com/3bpxym
http://tinyurl.com/2p6eb4

There are a couple of older articles that I need to get electronic versions of or scan the hardcopies in if you are interested.

SM
post #94 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by yabba kina View Post
sm ... please when you have time, could you read this post and place your list here for discussion:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...8&postcount=85
Please refine your request to a specific topic and I would be more than happy to. My professional and familial obligations rather time constraining after all.

SM
post #95 of 118
This is purely anecdotal and not about the MMR but I feel compelled to post about the vunerable age part.

My nephew was fine until he received a series of rabies shots at age 3 1/2. He then stopped speaking, began toe-walking, and hand-flapping.

Had this occurred at 15 or 18 months, the drs would have written it off as coincidence, because regression commonly occurs at those ages. But it is harder to see it as coincidence at 3 1/2 years of age.

Three drs told my sister that he probably had a genetic predisposition to autism and then the rabies vax triggered full-blown autism. One was his regular ped, one was his developmental ped at a major university hospital, and the third was the resident neurosurgeon at the same university hospital, who is one of the top pediatric neurologists in the country.

So the rabies vax can do it. And not just at 15 or 18 months, which is the age we commonly hear about. Can the MMR? Who knows.
post #96 of 118
yabba kina,

I asked you about the demyelination differences in the reasearch, if they existed, because I am interested if the processes and outcomes are different. I realize that very little is researched in regards to potential vaccine problems, but if someone has taken the time to look into the research I would like to know what they found.

As far as the brief mention of Lorenzo's Oil, I asked that because I was wondering if the demyelination issues (or a similar physical outcome) could have been linked to a vaccine, in your opinion, even though that was never mentioned in the movie.

I've been away for a couple of days so I just realized that you thought Science Mom asked this. I don't pretend to be a scientist or well-versed on all these topics. I'm a just an interested party that has been injured by vaccines and has worked with many children and parents suffering vaccine reactions.
post #97 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
Please refine your request to a specific topic and I would be more than happy to. My professional and familial obligations rather time constraining after all.

SM
here's the list. it's your list. you gave the topic
Quote:
There are numerous studies and one that I know has even followed rubella infected children for 50 years.
post #98 of 118
scattershoot. sorry about that.

i'm no scientist either. your brains are as good as mine or anyones. reading medical literature doesnt require a degree. just a brain, google dictionaries and knowing people who you can ask questions to to sort our the things that dont make sense. the av. mom is way more intelligent that they think; they just think they arent because theyre told theyre not.
post #99 of 118
YK, I also included the PMID numbers (below the links):
http://tinyurl.com/3yfdp5
16814433
http://tinyurl.com/39ue9t
10360309
http://tinyurl.com/3ajaf5
8309517
http://tinyurl.com/23fqrl
8037908
http://tinyurl.com/yra2vn
1353568
http://tinyurl.com/ytoaty
4170037

SM
post #100 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
YK, I also included the PMID numbers (below the links):
http://tinyurl.com/3yfdp5
16814433
http://tinyurl.com/39ue9t
10360309
http://tinyurl.com/3ajaf5
8309517
http://tinyurl.com/23fqrl
8037908
http://tinyurl.com/yra2vn
1353568
http://tinyurl.com/ytoaty
4170037

SM
u'r funny sm you complain coz I put up poser 1969, then you put up menser 67?

but wots really got me, is why you put most of these up anyway?

congenital rubella isn't the topic here, like i've said a few times already.

the only one you've put up which might have the slightest bearing of the mechanisms whereby a rubella infection or vaccination in a child, might provoke autism would be the third url on infantile spasms, and at a huge stretch possible choroidal neovascularisation in the fourth could be massages, stretched and manipulated to fit somewhere.

now before I organise family so as i can make a journey to the big stack to chery pick, can you explain to a dum ole horsebreeder, just what most of those articles have to do with mechanisms which would be involved with mmr vaccines and autism. or not as the case may be?

i just don't understand how you got to pick those references with the way the discussion in the thread was going.

but if you want to talk about congenital rubella and all its goriness, rather than mess up what the op wants to yab about, do you want to start a new thread, so we can actually talk on topic? and even then, you'll have to spell out what it is about congenital rubella you want to talk about.

r u basically saying that even if any component of the mmr, might even theoretically cause autism, that that's infinitely preferable to crs?

if so where are the numbers to show that the total population of crs in the past vastly exceeds the autism that might (as some here believe) be caused by the vaccine now?

don get me wrong.

i'm happy to talk.

just need to know how what you want to talk about fits the op's bill.
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