Can we talk about 'covering up' as a valid slippery slope?

[carriebft]

A slippery slope argument is not always valid and it is not always fallacious. I have been thinking about how people often ask "what is wrong with asking a mother to cover up" as it pertains to slippery slope.

Without making an argument concerning children who will not nurse with a blanket or similar arguments, can we talk about how to PROVE that accepting "cover up" creates a real risk of increased control over how and where a mother nurses?

Am I making sense?

I want to discuss ways we can prove it when we say "if we allow people to tell a mother to cover up, it will lead to other limitations on nursing such as 'go to another room' or 'do it in your car'."

I guess the best would be examples of real life situations where allowing some limitations on nursing creates more limitations.

Any ideas?

[Trishy]

The whole issue with a covering up is that the cover implies that the baby is doing something that should not be seen, that breastfeeding is dirty. If a nursing mom wants to NIP and cover that is fine, but she should not be asked or forced to cover.

[carriebft]

That is a good point. So, asking a mother to 'cover up' is creating an acceptance of the idea that breastfeeding is something to be hidden and is shameful or obscene; therefore, allowing this behavior to continue creates a public sentiment that would then possibly be reflected in law.

[Romana]

I agree, but I'm not sure how to demonstrate it. I remember a story from awhile ago where a woman was told she couldn't BF covered in church because men with porn addictions and teenage boys would know what she was doing despite the cover and be tempted to have sexual thoughts etc. during church. Maybe it's a "I know what you're doing under that blanket, and it's disgusting!" kind of thing. If you know what it is and are imagining it, then that's just as offensive to you, maybe more, than not actually seeing it, so then you're more likely to complain and BF women are more likely to be sent away.

Obviously, as Trishy said, it sends the wrong message from the get-go. So if the actual practice is offensive or disgusting, and that's legitimized by rules requiring a woman to cover up, then the next logical step is getting her to stop doing that "in public" or "out here where everyone can see what she's doing."

I'm sorry if that's not very helpful, but I do agree with you.

[thebarkingbird]

anything i feel the need to "cover up" when doing in public (nose picking. everybody gets a stray booger now and then. picking out an urgent wedggie. removing spinach from my teeth) is really better done in a bathroom. the "cover" of a napkin or shrinking into a corner is just to get enough privacy to do it without anybody seeing in an urgent situation.

BF is not like this. there's no need to do it in a bathroom or to hide it.

[boobs4milk]

murderers cover up murders, politicians cover up bribes, molestors cover up their porn collections. 'bad' things get covered up. breastfeeding a child is not bad, so why should we cover up when bf?

if we ask a woman to cover up while NIP, the next logical step would be to ask her to NIP in a separate room, for the comfort of those who do not want to see a child nursing under a blanket. from there, we could ask that these women nurse only in their cars b/c people may walk into that separate room and be offended to see a woman NIP under cover. then, we ask that nursing mothers only nurse at home b/c someone might see them nursing in their car and be offended.

additionally, when we ask a mother to cover up, it just draws more attention to the act of breastfeeding.

[Leetahalfelven]

I totally agree!!!

If you are being as discreet as you can w/o covering up completely, then you should be left alone to nurse in peace.

And my 5 month old daughter absolutely will not nurse like that... she has to see and touch my face while nursing. And we have worked for 5 months with an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC) to get her to nurse from me and not take pumped breast milk from a bottle!

NOW, that being said, I try to time my outings so I can nurse her at home or take a bottle when necessary. However, I travel often (7-10hr drives) to visit family with my children and have at times had the cooler packs fail and the bottles go bad, bottle inserts break, or not enough bottles because of having to stop for car trouble, etc....

AND I believe it is my right to feed my child where ever and when ever I need to.

-Now do I try to make a big production of this? NO!

-Do I try to find some way to be discreet? ABSOLUTELY!

-If I'm feeding the other 2 older children at the restaurant as well as myself, why can I not feed my baby also in peace?

I'm all for not being too revealing in your clothing, but I'm not talking about being sexually lewd! I'm talking about feeding your child in a way that is removed from being the center of attention.

We need to be able to show our children healthy human sexuality and reproduction! We have so many bad examples of this on magazine covers in stores, billboards, advertising of all kinds, TV Movies, Comercials! God wants us to set good examples too! NOT everything to do with human sexuality is bad or lurid or innappropriate. How will our children ever know what IS healthy and acceptable w/i a committed relationship if all they ever see are the bad examples?!?!?!?!?

[SashaBear]

Originally Posted by Leetahalfelven

I totally agree!!!

NOW, that being said, I try to time my outings so I can nurse her at home or take a bottle when necessary.

I'm sorry. I don't know your story so my question may be out of line but . . .

Why don't you nip regularly?

[puddle]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

I agree, but I'm not sure how to demonstrate it. I remember a story from awhile ago where a woman was told she couldn't BF covered in church because men with porn addictions and teenage boys would know what she was doing despite the cover and be tempted to have sexual thoughts etc. during church.

Stories like that are so absurd. There is nothing sexual about breastfeeding! If some guy at the church has a fetish for feet, do they make all the women wear socks? They should seat pornheads away from the mama--not punish her and her child for their problems.

[ambivamom]

Originally Posted by carriebft

That is a good point. So, asking a mother to 'cover up' is creating an acceptance of the idea that breastfeeding is something to be hidden and is shameful or obscene; therefore, allowing this behavior to continue creates a public sentiment that would then possibly be reflected in law.

I think this issue is fascinating because it requires so many different aspects of public and private life to be considered. It really demands a public discourse on the tension between public expectation, "civil" society and private rights.

I know lots of lactivists say that breasts aren't sexual, but I think that they are. I mean, not only are they sexualized , but they are parts of the body that are integral to sex and reproduction. I think, actually, a lot of the impulse to sexualize breasts is due to the fact that they ARE used for maintaing life; like, a peacock looks for ths mate with the best tailfeathers, you know? Or the bird who picks a mate who can build the best nestin which to raise their young. But whatever the reasons, they are intimate parts in certain settings and contexts.

To some people, covering parts of the body is done not to injdicate that those parts are obscene, but that they are special; hidden from view, perhaps, because they are too precious, to offer to everybody's gaze. That is the basis of some people's view of modesty.

This view of modesty is personal, however, and not the basis for public policy, because it is not shared by all, and in a secular and pluralistic society can not be enforced on everybody.

AND I do not think that the "pearls before swine" reasoning is what is behind the demands of most who want us to be "discrete."
The demand there is a misplaced shame of their own; stemming from the inability to handle the sexuality of the breast as displayed in the logical consequence of that sexuality (sex is what gives us the babies).

It has nothing to do with manners. Seeing a breast might make some feel strange, but the reasons, whatever they are, are entirely personal. To make public policy based on personal preference would lead to chaos.

In fact, "manners" is something our society now knows very little of. A few generations ago, people would never dream of publicly reprimanding someone who did something unmannerly, or what they considered distasteful.
Talking to them privately, well that might be another story. But again, that would be individual people expressing their preferences. A basis for conflict or conversation, yes. Not at all the basis for law.

[cjanelles]

Not fighting my battle very eloquently

sorry...wrong post

[cjanelles]

Originally Posted by SashaBear

I'm sorry. I don't know your story so my question may be out of line but . . .

Why don't you nip regularly?

I'm not the original person to whom this question was posed, but as a mom who also is conscious of timing outings so that I don't have to do much NIP, I'm inclined to answer.

I will NIP if my daughter is hungry, and I'll do so without the slightest hesitation based on my surroundings or the people in them.

HOWEVER, I am physically more comfortable nursing at home, in my chair than I am in a booth at the Burger King, a chair in the doctor's office or waiting in line at the driver's license bureau. We have our favorite positions. I am able to relax completely, and therefore have a better let-down and a more successful nursing session. For those reasons, my baby seems also to be more comfortable nursing at home...and I don't mean emotionally comfortable, but physically. She is more settled and eats more devotedly. She's not peeking around and pulling away, trying to get a better look at everything...

So, that's why I tend to try to do as much nursing at home as possible, even if it means scheduling appointments at times when DD is not likely to be nursing, or nursing before we leave or something like that...

[Britishmum]

I see it also as a way to ensure that babies get weaned well before 6 months. I never used a blanket, and think it ridiculous, so I can't testify to the age at which a child would object. But the 'blanket' argument holds an assumption that breastfeeding is only for tiny babies, on top of implying that it is something obscene that needs to be hidden from view.

[MilkTrance]

Originally Posted by cjanelles

I'm not the original person to whom this question was posed, but as a mom who also is conscious of timing outings so that I don't have to do much NIP, I'm inclined to answer.

I will NIP if my daughter is hungry, and I'll do so without the slightest hesitation based on my surroundings or the people in them.

HOWEVER, I am physically more comfortable nursing at home, in my chair than I am in a booth at the Burger King, a chair in the doctor's office or waiting in line at the driver's license bureau. We have our favorite positions. I am able to relax completely, and therefore have a better let-down and a more successful nursing session. For those reasons, my baby seems also to be more comfortable nursing at home...and I don't mean emotionally comfortable, but physically. She is more settled and eats more devotedly. She's not peeking around and pulling away, trying to get a better look at everything...

So, that's why I tend to try to do as much nursing at home as possible, even if it means scheduling appointments at times when DD is not likely to be nursing, or nursing before we leave or something like that...

This is how I feel, too. I also am not "good at" breastfeeding and I am a large person, so there is a lot of fidgeting and "fighting" going on with moving the baby around, getting myself settled, pulling out my breast (large breasts), making sure my flab is covered up, etc.

If it were easier for me, I'd NIP more often. But as it is now, I do get many looks and it's not just in my head.

Practice makes perfect though, right.