Harvard med student breastfeeding mom sues the national licening board - Page 9

[amey]

Originally Posted by ~pi

made me wonder how often it is available in one particular location. My understanding was that if you want to write in a particular location (say, one that does not require packing your entire family up and traveling somewhere for a couple of days) your options are somewhat limited.

I'm curious about test locations. I could find a link to 5 major metropolitan locations, but none of those were Boston and I can't imagine it's only offered in 5 cities. It would seem to me it would be offered anywhere with a medical school? I could find a way to check the calendar, but I had to be registered with information I don't have (like you have to be a med student or something already). It may very well be naive of me to assume there have to be more than 5 testing locations, but that might very well be true. I think I saw on the AMA site something about a Clinical Skills assessment being offered in 5 cities.

I'm hoping an MD or someone more knowledgeable will weigh in on this.

That said, she lives (according to a news article - I'm not posting anything that isn't in VERY public domain) in Brookline which is a close Boston suburb. I think it's about a 20 T ride into the city, if I remember correctly. My roommate after college nannied for a family there and we would take the T in from their part of town (it was cheaper than where we were in Newton).

[fishface]

I could find a link to 5 major metropolitan locations, but none of those were Boston and I can't imagine it's only offered in 5 cities.

Believe it. I'm not familiar w/ Step 3 but I know it's like that with Step 2. I live in Ohio and my friends have flown to Atlanta to take Step 2.

[elanorh]

Originally Posted by ccohenou

I'd be interested in your (or anyone supporting her cause's) reaction to their comments.

My thoughts:

1. (Pollyanna) - Gee, I wonder whether they'll incorporate another half hour or so of test break time for *everyone* so that the 40% of their test takers who are female, and might be lactating, can reasonably express their milk during the exam? : Here's hoping!!

2. Not surprised at all. They knew all along that they weren't going to bend on this, and feel confident that they're in the right due to 'precedence' and due to the fact that there isn't a law (nationally) to protect breastfeeding women's right to express their milk while working etc. etc. I think if a national or even a multitude of state laws were passed which protected this right, they'd need to start rethinking things. If we look at this from a perspective of employment/workplace - I think most salaried workers (working 8 hour days) are 'guaranteed' time for lunch as well as two breaks daily - I think when I was working as a clerk, we were guaranteed a half hour lunch and two fifteen minute breaks (1 hour total) for each shift. Of course, we professionals all know that overtime doesn't count for professionals, so that doesn't matter.

3. I still think it's lousy. Two nine-hour testing days (and given her ADHD and dyslexia, I'd imagine she'll be using all of her time both days), with 45 minutes of break time each day (so two 22 minute breaks each day) just really stinks.

And, like ~pi, I'm still shocked to see so little empathy and support for her on MDC's lactivism board. Ironically, a more mainstream board that I post on has quite a bit more understanding and support of her position - even though there are more ff'ers on that board! Interesting. Which makes me really wonder what the roots of this antipathy towards her/her situation are a result of, here.

ETA: I am especially confused about why people are still mixing her ADHD/dyslexia "exceptions" with somehow being 'enough' to allow her to pump more reasonably, too. They are two separate situations. The original accommodation should be the "equivalent" of one, 9 hour day as far as we are concerned. And therefore, the bottom line is that breastfeeding mothers receive substantially less break time during this exam than others, since they're pumping during their breaktime. Sure, it's survivable, and no one's breasts "explode." But it's also, IMO unreasonable since it's an exam for medical professionals, all of whom are supposed to recommend something different (and more supportive of bf) to their patients.

And I was deeply disturbed by the misogynistic and misinformed posts I read on this topic on some other sources - medical boards etc., where current and future HCPs were so terribly dismissive of bf and bf issues. We need more HCPs (like her) who understand bf and its importance - not more who are dismissive of it and misinformed about it!

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by ccohenou

It's interesting to think about what is reasonable. On an ongoing basis, would it be fair for a breastfeeding employee to ask for a full hour of (paid?) breaks in addition to regularly scheduled breaks/lunches? It seems that they have tried to accommodate her, but she's not willing to take anything less than her full 2 extra hours of breaks. To me, it seems similar to a woman insisting on an extra 45 minutes because she's on her period and needs to change her pad or take an advil every 2 hours. I wouldn't feel the need to get on board with that just because I too am a woman. It's life, not a disability, and we've all got problems (witness the vomiting man, who wasn't breastfeeding at all. it may suck, but it's not discriminatory).

You've got to be kidding... changing a pad involves an extra 30 seconds during a bathroom trip. Popping an advil? 10 seconds from start to finish, and I'm probably over estimating on that (Although Hyland's Headache would be preferable: )

Pumping takes a HECK of a lot longer than either of those tasks. Surely you must know that.

As for the "paid hour of break" concept, she is not asking to be paid, so I don't see how that's relevant to the issue at hand.

[ccohenou]

Originally Posted by ericswifey27

You've got to be kidding... changing a pad involves an extra 30 seconds during a bathroom trip. Popping an advil? 10 seconds from start to finish, and I'm probably over estimating on that (Although Hyland's Headache would be preferable: )

Pumping takes a HECK of a lot longer than either of those tasks. Surely you must know that.

Well, for YOU it does. How can YOU say what would work for other women?
They might need 15 minutes to boil their diva cup or something. What if they have a yeast infection?

not serious here, but we've heard a lot of this argument on the thread already. You're saying menstruating women should get less time to eat than others? You fiend.

Seriously though. I have made several arguments throughout the course of this thread that her fight is *strategically* a bad idea even if you support the overall goal. The facts are too questionable. It's a bad test case. That's my major objection, here, not that women shouldn't be able to pump at work or that 50% of women should give up breastfeeding or whatever other hyperboles have been suggested.

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by elanorh

My thoughts:

2. Not surprised at all. They knew all along that they weren't going to bend on this, and feel confident that they're in the right due to 'precedence' and due to the fact that there isn't a law (nationally) to protect breastfeeding women's right to express their milk while working etc. etc. I think if a national or even a multitude of state laws were passed which protected this right, they'd need to start rethinking things. If we look at this from a perspective of employment/workplace - I think most salaried workers (working 8 hour days) are 'guaranteed' time for lunch as well as two breaks daily - I think when I was working as a clerk, we were guaranteed a half hour lunch and two fifteen minute breaks (1 hour total) for each shift. Of course, we professionals all know that overtime doesn't count for professionals, so that doesn't matter.

Before you make bold statements stating that there are no laws protecting a breastfeeding mother's rights to pump milk while at work...I might enlighten or encourage you to check out the fact that Bill Clinton signed into law a Bill that recognizes a Federal Employee's Rights to express milk for their child and protects a bf'ing Mother's rights to nurse her child on Federal Property w/o being harassed. Albeit the law was embeded in another law, it was still passed and Federal Employees have rights.

The issue comes in that unless it is a Federally Protected Right/Violation of the US Constitution, that under the Seperation of State and Federal Government, the Federal Government lacks authority to force states to enact legislation. A person's right to breastfreed does not fall in this type of catagory, so it is left up to individual States to create their own BF'ing legilsation and laws.

Here are a few links you might check out....
http://www.bflrc.com/guest/news/reut...th19991005.htm
http://www.breastfeeding.org/law/property.html
http://www.llrx.com/columns/reference47.htm
http://maloney.house.gov/documents/o...egislation.pdf

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by doctormom

Message to Sophie: QUIT WHINING! You are the one who chose to enter the demanding field of medicine, THEN decided to have two babies right in the midst of your education. Did it ever occur to you that if you already suffer from two learning disabilities that perhaps you would need extra time in med school to study? The fact that you already failed the exam once suggests that you're having trouble keeping up academically. Perhaps med school wasn't the best time to have "two under two" - and then to throw a fit because the already extravagant special dispensations you have received weren't enough to suit you.\

God, thank you for saying that. I was sitting here thinking that while it would be reasonable to accomodate for a disability which one did not ask for, it is a different thing to accomodate for a lifestyle choice one DID ask for and did deliberately choose.

She decided she would have children in the midst of her medical training. This was her choice -- but being her choice, I get the feeling that she wants the world to accomodate that decision rather than (as Doctor Mom put it), sucking it up and dealing with the obvious, predictable consequences of her decision.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

You are getting it mixed up.
Day 1 - 9 hours of testing - including 1 45 minute break. (She is taking the first half of the test - which is normally 4 hours, on day 1 - she is getting 8 hours of testing time instead of the normal 4.)
Day 2 - 9 hours of testing - including 1 45 minute break. (She is taking the second half of the test - which is normally 4 hours, on day 2 - she is getting 8 hours of testing time instead of the normal 4.)

She is getting to take the test over the course of 18 hours, she gets an entire 18 hours to complete the exam. Each day she is there, she is getting a 45 minute break.

She is not getting 4 1/2 hours of testing a day and a 22.5 minute break per day...that would not be reasonable accomodations for her ADHD AND dyslexia.

And frankly, if the doubled test time is the accomodation for her ADHD and dyslexia, she has no right to a doubled break time. She is getting twice the break time that other candidates are given. This is more than an accomodation; it is a clear advantage.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

And frankly, if the doubled test time is the accomodation for her ADHD and dyslexia, she has no right to a doubled break time. She is getting twice the break time that other candidates are given. This is more than an accomodation; it is a clear advantage.

Huh? How are you figuring this? One thing that the test is testing is one's ability to hold up for an extended period of time during a stressful situation. If she's enduring the stress for twice as long, why wouldn't she need twice the breaks?

Extra breaks are actually a pretty common ADHD accomodation. She's not getting that, she's just getting what everyone else is getting -- 15 minutes for every 3 hours of testing with some flexibility about how to use it.

I'm on the fence on the nursing issue, because I have no experience there. As a special educator, however, I have a lot of experience with testing accomodations, and I can tell you that extra 45 minutes does not confer any extra advantage.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by blessed

There are an awful lot of the word 'I' in that statement.

You've told us all about the characteristics of your own breasts and their milk production. Not really relevant, I'm afraid. That seems to be the point that you are consistently overlooking.

I love how you try to mix your arguements.

My point is that she can express milk within the parameters allowed by the board. She just doesn't want to.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

My point is/was that this is not the only 9 hour test she has to take or has had to take in the course of her studies. Some people on the discussion seem to think that this is a one time deal for her.

Also, she is getting 2 9 hour days to complete the test in, double the amount of time normally allotted for a person taking the test.

Another point, when this was originally discussed before - if she finishes a section early, she can use that remain time from that section to take care of her needs (pumping, eating, pee, poop, etc.) If it is anything like the Step test my friend took over the summer, once you finished a section you either took time from your allotted break or you moved on to the next section of the test.

She can work around this, if she is willing to compromise a bit....
a) She has already taken the test once, so she has an idea of how long it will take her to complete each section of the test. Which means she has an idea of how much time she will have left over during each section.
b) If she knows she has time after each session
1) Bring a hand pump and do a quick relief of a couple of minutes
2) If you have enough time, grab a snack to eat (There are plenty of energy and protein type bars out there there are great for snacks)
3) Heck, have someone waiting with baby if you are that worried and do a quick nursing
4) Use the facilities, get a drink, relax for a few minutes
c) At lunch - Eat a quick sandwhich; then go pump. On days like that, I have never wanted more than just a quick bite -- anything else and I am too stuff to even concentrate in the afternoon part of the exam.
d) In the afternoon after you complete a session and have a few extra minutes - see b above.
e) Have someone standing by with baby immediately after test session ends and sit down some place and nurse your child.

I mean I could see asking and accomodating maybe an extra 15-20 minutes, but I don't think she really needs a extra full hour every day of the test to be doing this. I also wouldn't see it as unreasonable that since she already knows how the test works, that if she wants to skip the tutorial, she could easily have an extra 15 minutes. So, if they would give her an extra 15 mins accomodation, then also the 15 mins for the tutorial, that would be an additional 30 mins, giving her almost double the time everyone else gets. Plus she would still be possibley have time after each session.

Trust me, I am a slow release pumper as well....and it generally takes me a good 25-30 mins time to pump with a double electric pump (hospital grade). But, she could do a quick 15 min pump in the morning, eat a quick bite for lunch, then a 30 min pump at lunch, then a quick 15 min pump in the afternoon. She could nurse baby immediately before and after the test.

And like I said, this could all be done with just a request for an additional 15 mins, and asking that the tutorial time be applied as additional break time...

Exactly.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

You are getting it mixed up.
Day 1 - 9 hours of testing - including 1 45 minute break. (She is taking the first half of the test - which is normally 4 hours, on day 1 - she is getting 8 hours of testing time instead of the normal 4.)
Day 2 - 9 hours of testing - including 1 45 minute break. (She is taking the second half of the test - which is normally 4 hours, on day 2 - she is getting 8 hours of testing time instead of the normal 4.)

She is getting to take the test over the course of 18 hours, she gets an entire 18 hours to complete the exam. Each day she is there, she is getting a 45 minute break.

She is not getting 4 1/2 hours of testing a day and a 22.5 minute break per day...that would not be reasonable accomodations for her ADHD AND dyslexia.

Do you have a link for this information? Everything I have found, including her own live interviews, makes a different claim.

[haleyelianasmom]

Now I'm reading that it is a one-day 9-hour exam, but they are giving her 2 days to do it. How is that not enough? I'm starting to think that maybe she is just panicking given that she failed it last time.

I just can't imagine having 2 kids under 2 PERIOD. And med school is hard enough without kids. It sounds like she's just trying to have it all without slowing down in her professional or family life.

[haleyelianasmom]

http://www.charlotte.com/nation/story/273773.html

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom

http://www.charlotte.com/nation/story/273773.html

Thanks!

[khaoskat]

Originally Posted by Momily

Huh? How are you figuring this? One thing that the test is testing is one's ability to hold up for an extended period of time during a stressful situation. If she's enduring the stress for twice as long, why wouldn't she need twice the breaks?

Extra breaks are actually a pretty common ADHD accomodation. She's not getting that, she's just getting what everyone else is getting -- 15 minutes for every 3 hours of testing with some flexibility about how to use it.

I'm on the fence on the nursing issue, because I have no experience there. As a special educator, however, I have a lot of experience with testing accomodations, and I can tell you that extra 45 minutes does not confer any extra advantage.

Momily:

The test is normally like 8 1 hour test segments, 1 15 min. tutorial, 1 45 min of breaks (as the person chooses to use them). She is getting accomodated for her ADHD and Dyslexia by being given 2 hours per test segment. She is getting 2 45 min of breaks (1 for each day). So, yes, she is getting more breaks than anyone else taking the test would get. Basically for every 4 1 hour segments of testing, she is getting a 45 min break....Others taking the test, unless they have received accomodations for ADA conditions, only get 45 mins of breaks per 8 1 hour segments.

(Hopefully that made sense how I am wording it.)

[MomInFlux]

: This may be the most depressing thread I've ever read at MDC.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by khaoskat

Momily:

The test is normally like 8 1 hour test segments, 1 15 min. tutorial, 1 45 min of breaks (as the person chooses to use them). She is getting accomodated for her ADHD and Dyslexia by being given 2 hours per test segment. She is getting 2 45 min of breaks (1 for each day). So, yes, she is getting more breaks than anyone else taking the test would get. Basically for every 4 1 hour segments of testing, she is getting a 45 min break....Others taking the test, unless they have received accomodations for ADA conditions, only get 45 mins of breaks per 8 1 hour segments.

(Hopefully that made sense how I am wording it.)

Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by MomInFlux

: This may be the most depressing thread I've ever read at MDC.

I'd have to agree with you.

[firstkid4me]

Originally Posted by Googy

I think an element that people are missing here is that she would be forced to pump in one of the empty testing rooms, which have glass walls and observation areas. Personally, I could never pump in a situation like that, knowing that I could be watched by pretty much anyone--I would never let down. Personally I am completely comfortable NIP but I am NOT comfortable pumping in public. I don't understand why one of the test monitors couldn't search her pump thoroughly to make sure there was nothing inside that she could use to cheat with and then allow her to pump in a private room.

In addition, I don't think that the fact that she needs accommodations for her ADHD should factor into this at all. Those accommodations are set by the Americans with Disabilities Act to even the playing field for students with disabilities--they do not give her an advantage.

As a person with ADHD, the thing that gets me about the special consideration is we don't know how severe her case is. As long as you've been diagnosed with it at some point in your life, you qualify under Americans with Disabilities Act. In each state, there's a program called the Division/Department of Vocational Rehabilitation (DVR) that offers job training to people with disabilities. ADHD is covered by them, and when I applied, even though I haven't been on medication for over 6 years, I was accepted and almost started receiving benefits in WI right before we moved to San Diego. Is it really fair that someone who doesn't need to take medication and can basically function as a non-effected person be given the same consideration as someone who has a much more severe case? Since we left WI, I've pretty much decided that DVR wasn't the way to go because I would feel guilty, but I definitely have no pity for people who use ADHD as an excuse for certain things unless their reasons are valid (and until I know they are valid, I reserve the right to judge and talk smack, lol.)