Harvard med student breastfeeding mom sues the national licening board - Page 3

[BakerALM]

Originally Posted by Googy

I agree with what everyone is saying, BUT...
isn't it time that someone stand up for what is RIGHT and what SHOULD be done rather than just toe the line with the status quo? We all know that the status quo does not work and is not respectful of the needs of nursing moms. And if change is going to start somewhere, shouldn't it start with a major medical establishment???

This is hopefully the legacy she can leave for other BFing moms in the same situation. She will set the standard EITHER way for all BFing moms to come. We should not be taking into consideration her already being given concessions for ADHD else we risk setting the standard for BFing mom's too low and out of line with the true need.:

I think everyone is misunderstanding that she will only get 22.5mins each day break to walk from the testing room to where she will be pumping, setup her pump, get out her food, pump & eat, breakdown her pump, pour & store the milk in a fridge, walk to the bathroom, "do her business", wash her hands, walk back to the testing room. I know every room will be close but also everything takes time and it adds up fast. I imagine if life was perfect it could JUST be doable if she pumped for a very short amount of time but the point is she should NOT have to do it this way.

I quoted this from the article, the main point that I think everyone is missing is bolded in RED.
......Dr. Alison Stuebe, a physician at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston and a member of the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine, supported Ms. Currier’s request in an affidavit filed with the court.
“Forty-five minutes (total),” Dr. Stuebe wrote, “is insufficient time for a nursing mother of a 4-month-old to eat, drink, use the restroom and to fully and properly express breast milk using an electric pump two times over the course of eight hours.”......

[amey]

I want to add that the WhisperWear pump is NOT silent. She definitely couldn't use that in a room with other test takers.

When I took the NY Teacher Certification exam, we had to open any cough drops we might need ahead of time (so others didn't have to hear the paper) and even pull tissues out of the box (this might also have been to check for notes). I know I brought a half roll of toilet paper and had to pre-rip the sheets I need for blowing my nose. That room was SILENT.

I was at a LLL conference and a woman was using a Whisper Wear in the ladies' lounge and I could hear it over conversation. It wasn't LOUD, but it did make an audible noise. The mom said the same thing: it's quieter than other pumps, but not silent.

Can someone explain exactly what her current testing allowances are? I'm just trying to make sure I understand. How long each day will she be testing? Is there just one 45 minute break per day or are there several that total 45 minutes?

[bri276]

I just don't agree with her. I understand her point, I get why people support her, but it's a question of where to draw the line. If she had a job where every day she was only going to be given one break for pumping, I'd have a problem with that, since it's less than a normal person would even be given. But she's already had it broken up into two days, two breaks.

I was an ep'er and belonged to a couple ep'ing groups so I'm pretty in tune with how often pumping needs to happen. When you ep, a lot of situations come up where you get stuck and can't pump when you need to, but one day (unless it's the first few days after your baby is born), is not a dealbreaker. There's a little leeway for "cheating" at four months. Is it ideal? of course not. But turning breastfeeding into a medical condition that needs special treatment above and beyond normal breaks.... it bothers me on a couple levels. One, it's not physiologically correct, two, in the case of bf'ing, it's not "all publicity is good publicity", and in this case, I think it's sending the message that bf'ing is more complicated and difficult than it is (and I'm not someone who had an easy experience by any standards). I think the two days with 22 minute breaks, even if she doesn't fully empty the breasts during that time, I just can't see why that wouldn't be okay. And as far as having to pump in an all glass room, there are ways to do that with button down shirts and then putting a sweatshirt on backwards, which I've done in certain circumstances, ie in the car.

[elanorh]

I think some folks are making assumptions here in terms of how comfortable this woman would be pumping in a glass walled room. I mean, even with it all "hidden" in a nursing top or etc., I *know* that many, many of the breastfeeding mothers in this country would be very uncomfortable pumping knowing that others might see what was going on. I know I can't be the only woman posting here who's far more comfortable NIP than she is "PIP" .... How well would she let down?

We're assuming that this mother doesn't (say) have a history or risk of mastitis/plugged ducts. I developed plugged ducts monthly while WOH and pumping. Does she have the same issues (mine were undoubtedly related to going too long between pumping I'm sure).

I read the article to say that she had 45 minutes of break, each day. But I still think that it is unreasonable for her to be expected to devote 9 hours to the exam, and 45 minutes to restroom, eating, drinking, walking to decompress or whatever everyone else is doing. And, in addition, not all moms respond the same to pumping. I've a sister who never was successful at pumping (she just wouldn't let down). It took me half an hour to set up, pump fully, and get all put away when I was pumping at work. I didn't let down fast, it was a dripbydrip process - with a hospital grade pump.

The bottom line is that, yes, lactating is a normal physiological process for women of the age this mother is. This test is a once (or in her case, twice) in a lifetime event; and it will impact her future forever. Doesn't it bug anyone else that she's being told that she's only acceptable as a member of this group if she ignores such a fundamental part of herself (lactating)? To me, this says - if you plan to breastfeed your child, resign yourself to not being able to be [doctor, lawyer, college professor, *whatever*] and just stay at home and ignore those goals 'til you're done having kids. Isn't this sort of message something that we as lactivists are opposed to?

Why is her request for a little more time to pump, being considered so extreme and OTT? The simple answer, IMO, is that we as a culture have absorbed the ff mantra to such a great extent that we actually think it's whiny of a mother to want a little extra time to accomplish pumping. Don't we want MORE doctors who are supportive of breastfeeding?

Also it seems like some people are considering pumping a "break" where she'd become more relaxed and have an edge over her counterparts. Who's to say whether it'd be relaxing for her, or not? Maybe one of her fellow test takers is going to do yoga during his break. Is it unfair to the others that he's got that as a way to decompress?

I guess I feel like some of the responses here are of the "Well, I walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts over my head and I'm just fine!" sorts of responses - and instead of talking about how rough we have/had it, and how we got through it fine and The Man wasn't asked to accomodate us beyond whatever limit we/he thought mattered -- shouldn't we be working to ensure that other moms don't have to "Walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts" (metaphorically speaking) as breastfeeding mothers??

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by Momily

If they accommodate her request, the MCAT people are probably going to have to hire a proctor or two just for her, at considerable cost to them. If buying a new pump (renting one? Is that possible) is an option to make this doable, then I think having he absorb that cost is reasonable.

I agree. If she wants to take, she needs to give.

I have also read some posts about her letting down while being watched. For me, that's not an exact science. Sometimes, I have a great letdown, but sometimes it's a struggle, regardless of the situation. There is no guarantee that she would be able to letdown anyway even if left alone (in such a stressful testing situation), so I don't think that argument is valid.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by BakerALM

This is hopefully the legacy she can leave for other BFing moms in the same situation. She will set the standard EITHER way for all BFing moms to come. We should not be taking into consideration her already being given concessions for ADHD else we risk setting the standard for BFing mom's too low and out of line with the true need.:

I think everyone is misunderstanding that she will only get 22.5mins each day break to walk from the testing room to where she will be pumping, setup her pump, get out her food, pump & eat, breakdown her pump, pour & store the milk in a fridge, walk to the bathroom, "do her business", wash her hands, walk back to the testing room. I know every room will be close but also everything takes time and it adds up fast. I imagine if life was perfect it could JUST be doable if she pumped for a very short amount of time but the point is she should NOT have to do it this way.

I quoted this from the article, the main point that I think everyone is missing is bolded in RED.
......Dr. Alison Stuebe, a physician at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston and a member of the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine, supported Ms. Currier’s request in an affidavit filed with the court.
“Forty-five minutes (total),” Dr. Stuebe wrote, “is insufficient time for a nursing mother of a 4-month-old to eat, drink, use the restroom and to fully and properly express breast milk using an electric pump two times over the course of eight hours.”......

1. Pump right before the test.
2. Pump on break. Eat while pumping (this CAN be done).
3. Finish the test.
4. Pump again.

What's the problem here??????

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by bri276

I just don't agree with her. I understand her point, I get why people support her, but it's a question of where to draw the line. If she had a job where every day she was only going to be given one break for pumping, I'd have a problem with that, since it's less than a normal person would even be given. But she's already had it broken up into two days, two breaks.

I was an ep'er and belonged to a couple ep'ing groups so I'm pretty in tune with how often pumping needs to happen. When you ep, a lot of situations come up where you get stuck and can't pump when you need to, but one day (unless it's the first few days after your baby is born), is not a dealbreaker. There's a little leeway for "cheating" at four months. Is it ideal? of course not. But turning breastfeeding into a medical condition that needs special treatment above and beyond normal breaks.... it bothers me on a couple levels. One, it's not physiologically correct, two, in the case of bf'ing, it's not "all publicity is good publicity", and in this case, I think it's sending the message that bf'ing is more complicated and difficult than it is (and I'm not someone who had an easy experience by any standards). I think the two days with 22 minute breaks, even if she doesn't fully empty the breasts during that time, I just can't see why that wouldn't be okay. And as far as having to pump in an all glass room, there are ways to do that with button down shirts and then putting a sweatshirt on backwards, which I've done in certain circumstances, ie in the car.

Exactly.

[RachelGS]

Hmm. I had a few days where I failed to fully empty my breasts. Wound up with MRSA mastitis and was sick for six months. Never, ever, EVER a risk worth taking.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by elanorh

I think some folks are making assumptions here in terms of how comfortable this woman would be pumping in a glass walled room. I mean, even with it all "hidden" in a nursing top or etc., I *know* that many, many of the breastfeeding mothers in this country would be very uncomfortable pumping knowing that others might see what was going on. I know I can't be the only woman posting here who's far more comfortable NIP than she is "PIP" .... How well would she let down?

How well would she let down anyway, given the stress of simply taking the test? In addition, I doubt that the other test-takers will be focusing on her. They'll have their own concerns that day.

We're assuming that this mother doesn't (say) have a history or risk of mastitis/plugged ducts. I developed plugged ducts monthly while WOH and pumping. Does she have the same issues (mine were undoubtedly related to going too long between pumping I'm sure).

How does that matter? She has to test for 4.5 hours each day. She can pump, test, pump, test, and pump. She would only be maybe 2+ hours between sessions. That should be enough to at least partially empty her breasts.

I read the article to say that she had 45 minutes of break, each day. But I still think that it is unreasonable for her to be expected to devote 9 hours to the exam, and 45 minutes to restroom, eating, drinking, walking to decompress or whatever everyone else is doing. And, in addition, not all moms respond the same to pumping. I've a sister who never was successful at pumping (she just wouldn't let down). It took me half an hour to set up, pump fully, and get all put away when I was pumping at work. I didn't let down fast, it was a dripbydrip process - with a hospital grade pump.

She has to test 4.5 hours each day. Pumping within the parameters set by the board is not impossible.

The bottom line is that, yes, lactating is a normal physiological process for women of the age this mother is. This test is a once (or in her case, twice) in a lifetime event; and it will impact her future forever. Doesn't it bug anyone else that she's being told that she's only acceptable as a member of this group if she ignores such a fundamental part of herself (lactating)? To me, this says - if you plan to breastfeed your child, resign yourself to not being able to be [doctor, lawyer, college professor, *whatever*] and just stay at home and ignore those goals 'til you're done having kids. Isn't this sort of message something that we as lactivists are opposed to?

What bothers me is that she is making breastfeeding mothers look like demanding, inflexible women.

Why is her request for a little more time to pump, being considered so extreme and OTT? The simple answer, IMO, is that we as a culture have absorbed the ff mantra to such a great extent that we actually think it's whiny of a mother to want a little extra time to accomplish pumping. Don't we want MORE doctors who are supportive of breastfeeding?

It's extreme because it CAN be done within the guidelines set by the board. She just simply wants more.

Also it seems like some people are considering pumping a "break" where she'd become more relaxed and have an edge over her counterparts. Who's to say whether it'd be relaxing for her, or not? Maybe one of her fellow test takers is going to do yoga during his break. Is it unfair to the others that he's got that as a way to decompress?

It's a major test. I doubt anyone is going to be having a relaxing break.

I guess I feel like some of the responses here are of the "Well, I walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts over my head and I'm just fine!" sorts of responses - and instead of talking about how rough we have/had it, and how we got through it fine and The Man wasn't asked to accomodate us beyond whatever limit we/he thought mattered -- shouldn't we be working to ensure that other moms don't have to "Walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts" (metaphorically speaking) as breastfeeding mothers??


I would support her if I thought she had a valid arguement, reastfeeding or not. The fact that one is breastfeeding does not automatically make all of their demands inarguable.

:

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by RachelGS

Hmm. I had a few days where I failed to fully empty my breasts. Wound up with MRSA mastitis and was sick for six months. Never, ever, EVER a risk worth taking.

She can empty them before the test and again after the test.

[RachelGS]

Yep. That kind of timing was pretty much my strategy in those two days. It backfired catastrophically. The thing is, while she'll probably be fine, you don't KNOW, and neither does the medical board. (The MEDICAL board. The irony is sickening.) I assumed I'd be fine, too, but in fact I got sicker than I've ever been in my entire life. It's a stupid, stupid, unnecessary health risk.

[blessed]

Looks like she's going into pathology. That would be a good match for someone with her limitations. There is no direct patient contact and you can work mostly according to your own schedule.

I don't see how you could pass Harvard Medical School curriculum and fail USMLE part 2. It's all clinical knowlege. Generally if you know how to provide basic medical care to patients you know enough to pass.

But I do support the right of breastfeeding mothers to be accomodated in the workplace.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by RachelGS

Yep. That kind of timing was pretty much my strategy in those two days. It backfired catastrophically. The thing is, while she'll probably be fine, you don't KNOW, and neither does the medical board. (The MEDICAL board. The irony is sickening.) I assumed I'd be fine, too, but in fact I got sicker than I've ever been in my entire life. It's a stupid, stupid, unnecessary health risk.

Even if she is given an entire hour in the middle of a 4.5 hour session, there is no guarantee.

She said in a local interview that she needs to pump at least every three hours. Given the above schedule, she'd be pumping sooner than that. So yeash, she may have to eat and pump at the same time, but it can still be done.

I am sitting in my office right now, pumping and typing. I am completely relaxed, I have my door shut, and I am even thinking about BFing. Yet, I am not letting down like I normally would. It happens. I guess I just need to deal with it.

[Noisette's_Maman]

Originally Posted by Sandstress

I'm wondering what kind of medicine she's intending on practicing- in some situations, there just isn't the possiblity of such allowances.

I know her and she's a geneticist so she won't be expected to perform surgery at the drop of a hat or anything similar...

[Sandstress]

Originally Posted by Noisette's_Maman

I know her and she's a geneticist so she won't be expected to perform surgery at the drop of a hat or anything similar...

But in pathology residency program, even clinical pathology, your time is not your own-you're at the mercy of every attending at the place. I think if she cannot negotiate a single testing session, no matter how many days it has been stretched into, she's in for a difficult time. I really think she's being unreasonable, and I'm concerned for the *type* of publicity she's getting.

[haleyelianasmom]

This world needs to be more set up for families. Wouldn't it be nice if all of us could have a job, attand school, do whatever and not have to worry about finding a good babysitter, pumping, etc? Wouldn't it be nice if people could just bring their kids and nursing babies with them to class or work and THAT was just the norm? Everyone's kids play together in the back, moms nurse while taking exams or working... ah utopia. Eh, I'm sure it has it's downsides, but let me dream here.

I have a feeling she either a) is having a little bit of trouble pumping, but wants to get the boards over with as soon as possible because of scheduling/timing problems OR b) is hoping to challenge a old system that is not set up to be family friendly, starting with the board examiners. (I'm guessing it's b)

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by Sandstress

But in pathology residency program, even clinical pathology, your time is not your own-you're at the mercy of every attending at the place. I think if she cannot negotiate a single testing session, no matter how many days it has been stretched into, she's in for a difficult time. I really think she's being unreasonable, and I'm concerned for the *type* of publicity she's getting.

This concerns me as well. I hate the term BFing-natzi with a passion because that just does not describe most of the women I know. I am friends with several other BFing and extended BFing moms, and we are all in agreement in that she is being unreasonable. She could work within the workable parameters set by the board, but she won't.

It makes me sad because I know the media has the potential to make her demands look even worse than they already are.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by Sandstress

But in pathology residency program, even clinical pathology, your time is not your own-you're at the mercy of every attending at the place. I think if she cannot negotiate a single testing session, no matter how many days it has been stretched into, she's in for a difficult time. I really think she's being unreasonable, and I'm concerned for the *type* of publicity she's getting.

This is the kind of thinking that she's working to combat.

There's no reason that her breastfeeding cannot be accomodated in the position of a pathology resident or pathologist. Her bosses need to make adjustments in their attitudes and expections around the idea of nursing mothers. And people in general need to work toward accomodating parental and family obligations in the work place. Everywhere.

[Attached Mama]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

: that she wins BIG TIME!

yeah that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be sooooooooooooooo awesome!! Good for her!!

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by Attached Mama

yeah that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be sooooooooooooooo awesome!! Good for her!!

Why? Simple because she is a BFer? BFing does not make one automatically in the right automatically in every instance.