Harvard med student breastfeeding mom sues the national licening board - Page 5

[Romana]

Originally Posted by boingo82

I guess I'm weird that way too. Am I the only female whose bladder capacity allows them to easily go 8+ hours without peeing??

Under normal circumstances, I can go 8 hours or longer, whether pregnant or not. Generally I get thirsty when I get nervous, though. Also, being very nervous or anxious/heightened state (such as for an exam that will determine whether I will be licensed as a professional or not) frequently makes my bowels move more quickly - adrenaline and other hormones, I assume, makes that happen.

I don't think a bathroom break and a chance to eat something and pump during an 8-9 hour day is unreasonable; in fact I think it's pretty necessary for the test taker to be capable of fully concentrating on what may be the most important and determinate exam of his or her life.

FTR, a test taker vomited during the exam I took. Right in the testing room. People get nervous. Stuff happens. A break is important. If you can write essays by hand, be under great pressure, and concentrate well for 8-9 hours for two days straight, with no breaks, Congrats. And yes, I would say that's rather unusual. Just so you know, the person who vomited was not permitted to go to the bathroom to clean himself up/drink a little water and come back. He only had the option of staying where he was and finishing the exam, or withdrawing completely (failing). It happened at the beginning of the morning session. They did clean up the mess on the floor, but did not allow him to go to the bathroom. He stayed, and I hope he passed. I don't feel that policy was fair to that test taker, the other test takers who had to deal with vomit smell all morning.

But that isn't really the point here. And I suppose that I'm more focused not on nitpicking exactly what and exactly why she needs additional time or an opportunity to pump, or who's got a bladder of steel and who hasn't - but instead on the larger picture, of how a more mother-friendly policy would enable more pregnant women and nursing mothers to pursue and obtain medical degrees, law degrees, etc. and enter those professions. I maintain that a more mother-friendly policy would be a good thing, not a bad thing.

[boingo82]

Wow, the vomit thing is really awful. They did not even allow him to use the restroom?
I agree that a bathroom break or two is appropriate. I guess when these special concessions (nursing mom for example) are requested they try to strike a balance between fair to that person and fair to all. I don't think it's easy.

[amey]

How much time is she requesting?

What do you consider a reasonable accomodation? What if that's not enough time for the next nursing mother?

Sweden is consider very family friendly - do they make allowances for nursing mothers in these situations? That would seem like a good comparison to make.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by boingo82

Mine too, with the clear cover (that pic was close enough I figured..).
I've had it for 3.5 years now, and got it second-hand too. Who knows how much it's been used. It's a great pump though.

Would you believe last year I found a PIS in a thrift store for $5? With all the parts including the ice pack? A MDC mama has that one now.

awesome!!!!!!!!!!

[runes]

i don't think she's asking for 'too much'. she knows her own body, and in light of that is most likely asking for the accomodations that would allow her to pump successfully not only to keep up her supply but to prevent mastitis. that means different things to different women. i highly doubt that if she had as easy of a time pumping as some of the women here have stated, she would not be making as much of an issue about this. i've never been much of a pumper especially under duress, so i could relate to her anxiety about being given ample time. also, when dd was that age i still had a HUGE oversupply and if she didn't nurse frequently enough i would get terribly and painfully engorged...not an optimal state to be taking a challenging exam!

just to put in my own anecdote about taking a grueling health sciences board examination...i am a stellar test taker (if i do say so myself) and even i found it incredibly difficult to manage my time/breaks when i took the boards, and i was not a lactating woman then. i remember running to the bathroom, trying to pee as fast as i could, scarfing down an energy bar and some water while sitting on the toilet (YUK!), then doing some jumping jacks and deep breathing in the restroom (again YUK...i'm not a fan of filling my lungs with public bathroom scented air ) in order to get my blood oxygenated and flowing to my brain.

[KirstenMary]

I've seen her pump, and set up could take minimal time if she sets up ahead of time. She could hook up the containers to the tubing and store them in the side compartment, and she could also use a battery pack. All she would have to do it sit down, put the funnels on her breasts, and start the pump. That might take maybe a minute or two, if that. In addition, she could wear a snug fitting shirt in place of buying a hands-free device. The shirt would hold the pump in place and give her a chance to eat.

Just as I just ate dinner and am responding to this post, all while pumping. Why you ask? Because I am teaching two college English classes this evening, and I only have 20 minutes between the two. And the last time I pumped was about 3:15.

It CAN be done.

[Googy]

Again, this is not just a TIME issue, this is a LOCATION issue. The NY Times article makes clear that she would be forced to pump in a glass-walled testing room with a monitor present. That is the biggest issue to me--to me it is wildly inappropriate to expect her to do this.

[moderngal]

Me too, I could fully pump, get 10-18 oz total, (up to 12 oz just from the right one alone....) and wash the pump parts, pack up, and be back downstairs within 15-20 minutes.
I also was *easily* able to go 4 hours without pumping. That was my usual duration, I would BF before leaving for work, pump at lunch, come home and BF one side pump the other.

Me too!! I had the Ameda Purely Yours and I loved it as much as one could love a pump.

A big component of the USMLE tests, in addition to the actual fund of knowledge, is the stamina it takes to sit there for nine hours and take them. If you let people take extra breaks for things like pumping, it's hugely unfair to the other thousands of people who don't get an extra break.

Yes!! This is what I have the biggest issue with. As someone that took a national boards exam, the hardest part of it was simply the time it took to be drilled by questions all day long. I'm not sure I think it's fair for anyone, no matter what, to get an exception to it. If you can't hack the test, can you hack the profession?

She is facing 2 NINE hour days, not 2 4.5 hour days.

She has said in interviews that it is 2 4.5 hours over and over again.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Googy

Again, this is not just a TIME issue, this is a LOCATION issue. The NY Times article makes clear that she would be forced to pump in a glass-walled testing room with a monitor present. That is the biggest issue to me--to me it is wildly inappropriate to expect her to do this.

That would be uncomfortable for me too, but it seems doable if she is allowed to use a blanket or nursing coverup. I have pumped in a car with non-tinted windows before and just used a blanket.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by boingo82

That would be uncomfortable for me too, but it seems doable if she is allowed to use a blanket or nursing coverup. I have pumped in a car with non-tinted windows before and just used a blanket.

No this isn't true. When you're on your break you can leave, go to the bathroom, get a sandwich, make a phone call, whatever you want.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by blessed

No this isn't true. When you're on your break you can leave, go to the bathroom, get a sandwich, make a phone call, whatever you want.

??? did you mean to quote the person above me?

[blessed]

Originally Posted by boingo82

??? did you mean to quote the person above me?

It looks like I thought I was quoting the person you quoted. Sorry.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by boingo82

I guess I'm weird that way too. Am I the only female whose bladder capacity allows them to easily go 8+ hours without peeing??

Yes. Even when not pg, I can NOT go more than 2-3 hours. I have been that way since I was a child. And I have always had an overabundant supply of milk, but was NEVER able to get more than 2 oz. at any given time when pumping.

[runes]

Originally Posted by moderngal

Yes!! This is what I have the biggest issue with. As someone that took a national boards exam, the hardest part of it was simply the time it took to be drilled by questions all day long. I'm not sure I think it's fair for anyone, no matter what, to get an exception to it. If you can't hack the test, can you hack the profession?

: what? so do you ask all your physicians what they scored on their board exam?

several of my classmates failed the boards the first time they took it. actually, one of the brightest students in my graduating class failed it the first time, and we were all SHOCKED because she had consistently scored at the top of the class throughout our very rigorous ivy league program. she went on to pass it and has had a very successful career. her first time failure probably helped many of us pass, as it really lit a fire under many of us to study extra hard as we thought that if she could fail it, any of us could.

i absolutely do not believe that performance on a standardized test has much relevance on the ability of a person to perform in most careers. yes, it is a 'hoop' to jump through. but i wish that they would also devise some type of hoop that would ensure that all doctors have adequate social skills in order to engage in a helping profession but that will be a cold day in hell. i know almost all of us have met 'that' doctor with piss poor bedside manner, and i don't give a damn if s/he got a perfect score on the usmle.

[~pi]

Originally Posted by blessed

I can't see that allowing a breastfeeding woman adequate time to effectively pump is any hardship, nor that it effects the outcome of the testing in any way other than leveling the playing field so that she's not unfairly penalized.

If they've decided that 45 minutes is an adequate time for people to have the chance to eat, rehydrate, and relieve themselves, then of course they need to factor in additional time for a person needing to pump breastmilk.

:

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by elanorh

I guess I feel like some of the responses here are of the "Well, I walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts over my head and I'm just fine!" sorts of responses - and instead of talking about how rough we have/had it, and how we got through it fine and The Man wasn't asked to accomodate us beyond whatever limit we/he thought mattered -- shouldn't we be working to ensure that other moms don't have to "Walk uphill both ways through snowdrifts" (metaphorically speaking) as breastfeeding mothers??

Originally Posted by kidspiration

: i absolutely do not believe that performance on a standardized test has much relevance on the ability of a person to perform in most careers. yes, it is a 'hoop' to jump through. but i wish that they would also devise some type of hoop that would ensure that all doctors have adequate social skills in order to engage in a helping profession but that will be a cold day in hell. i know almost all of us have met 'that' doctor with piss poor bedside manner, and i don't give a damn if s/he got a perfect score on the usmle.

:

[elanorh]

Yes!! This is what I have the biggest issue with. As someone that took a national boards exam, the hardest part of it was simply the time it took to be drilled by questions all day long. I'm not sure I think it's fair for anyone, no matter what, to get an exception to it. If you can't hack the test, can you hack the profession?

First - her lactation status is temporary. She'll only be dealing with it while breastfeeding, and as intensively as this, only for a few more months. It's not like the fact that she breastfeeds is a permanent reflection of her ability to doctor. The woman has stated that she chose to have her children while in school, rather than during her residency, as she felt that would mesh better with her career as a physician. So why should her temporary lactating condition, be allowed to dictate the rest of her career? She's already been accepted into a residency program that she must pass this exam before beginning, IIRC.

In terms of the tests themselves -- DH is in the process of taking his national boards for architecture. While there are elements of his exams which actually are important, to hear him tell it most of the test is archaic, outdated, and fails to reflect the way architects work today.

There are plenty of people who "nail" their exams and fail spectacularly at their actual profession (or grad school, or whatever). It's a test, it's not practical application of knowledge earned. Test anxiety and all sorts of factors come into play. Truly - I rock at exams. It doesn't matter whether they're essay or multiple choice or whatever, I excel at them. The fact that I could probably pass dh's architecture exams doesn't mean I'm an architect. There's far more to it than that, and the same is true I'm sure for lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. (Incidentally, I may have practically aced the GRE, but I disappointed my dept. by opting out of grad school after my master's. So my score wasn't exactly a predictor of my success in grad school, at least within my department).

When else in her medical career is she going to be asked to sit through a 9 hour exam? I simply fail to see the supposed correlation between the test environment, and her future work environment.

If they've decided that 45 minutes is an adequate time for people to have the chance to eat, rehydrate, and relieve themselves, then of course they need to factor in additional time for a person needing to pump breastmilk.

I agree with Blessed here - I'm waiting to hear someone rebut this. It's not like pumping is a vacation, after all - I think giving a breastfeeding mother the opportunity to spend the same amount of time eating, using the restroom, etc. as her counterparts, while also giving her enough additional time to enable her to pump her breasts - is the logical and fair thing to do. Why should she get LESS time to eat, defecate, etc. than her counterparts? Because that is what is being suggested here - that as a breastfeeding mother, she shouldn't get to eat, drink, walk, etc. for as much time as her peers. How does this compute? I don't understand how this argument is even being supported on a lactivism board.

Really I'm feeling like the bottom line for some posters in re: this situation, is "Well if you can't pump in five minutes in full view of other individuals while taking this exam, then you must not have the qualifications to be a doctor." And, honestly, I fail to see any correlation between:
1. Being able to let down efficiently for a pump, and
2. Not having a tendency towards mastitis or plugged ducts, and/or
3. Being comfortable pumping in public

-- and becoming a physician. :

[~pi]

:

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by Googy

Again, this is not just a TIME issue, this is a LOCATION issue. The NY Times article makes clear that she would be forced to pump in a glass-walled testing room with a monitor present. That is the biggest issue to me--to me it is wildly inappropriate to expect her to do this.

I disagree. She can wear a nursing shirt if she is uncomfortable. Or use a cover. Maybe it's not her ideal situation, but it's workable.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by elanorh

First - her lactation status is temporary. She'll only be dealing with it while breastfeeding, and as intensively as this, only for a few more months. It's not like the fact that she breastfeeds is a permanent reflection of her ability to doctor. The woman has stated that she chose to have her children while in school, rather than during her residency, as she felt that would mesh better with her career as a physician. So why should her temporary lactating condition, be allowed to dictate the rest of her career? She's already been accepted into a residency program that she must pass this exam before beginning, IIRC.

In terms of the tests themselves -- DH is in the process of taking his national boards for architecture. While there are elements of his exams which actually are important, to hear him tell it most of the test is archaic, outdated, and fails to reflect the way architects work today.

There are plenty of people who "nail" their exams and fail spectacularly at their actual profession (or grad school, or whatever). It's a test, it's not practical application of knowledge earned. Test anxiety and all sorts of factors come into play. Truly - I rock at exams. It doesn't matter whether they're essay or multiple choice or whatever, I excel at them. The fact that I could probably pass dh's architecture exams doesn't mean I'm an architect. There's far more to it than that, and the same is true I'm sure for lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. (Incidentally, I may have practically aced the GRE, but I disappointed my dept. by opting out of grad school after my master's. So my score wasn't exactly a predictor of my success in grad school, at least within my department).

When else in her medical career is she going to be asked to sit through a 9 hour exam? I simply fail to see the supposed correlation between the test environment, and her future work environment.



I agree with Blessed here - I'm waiting to hear someone rebut this. It's not like pumping is a vacation, after all - I think giving a breastfeeding mother the opportunity to spend the same amount of time eating, using the restroom, etc. as her counterparts, while also giving her enough additional time to enable her to pump her breasts - is the logical and fair thing to do. Why should she get LESS time to eat, defecate, etc. than her counterparts? Because that is what is being suggested here - that as a breastfeeding mother, she shouldn't get to eat, drink, walk, etc. for as much time as her peers. How does this compute? I don't understand how this argument is even being supported on a lactivism board.

Really I'm feeling like the bottom line for some posters in re: this situation, is "Well if you can't pump in five minutes in full view of other individuals while taking this exam, then you must not have the qualifications to be a doctor." And, honestly, I fail to see any correlation between:
1. Being able to let down efficiently for a pump, and
2. Not having a tendency towards mastitis or plugged ducts, and/or
3. Being comfortable pumping in public

-- and becoming a physician. :

I'll rebut it. She can eat, drink, and pump at the same time. I do it all.the.time.