Sadams Sons - Page 3

[El Casey S]

Originally posted by Delta
Hmm, I suppose what you see as angry, punitive and seeking revenge *I* see as strong, resolved, and not putting up with anyone's bullsh!t.
As far as I can tell, he's praising the military for doing their job.

ECS's DH - I'm CERTAIN that if you had been a German in the 1930's you would have viewed Hitler in the same way.

[dentente]

Gad. You know. I go back and forth and back and forth...

1) Yeah Saddam and his henchmen/sons/party were awful, awful people. They were cruel and terrible. They deserved to go.

2) An average of one dead US soldier a day so far. Someone's dad, husband, brother, grandson. Gone. Billions and billions of dollars to fund this behemoth too.

3) Saddam Hussein is a bad, bad man but he is not, in spite of all efforts by The Bush/Blair Machine to convince me otherwise...he is NOT Osama Bin Laden. Nobody even mentions that guy anymore. WTFIUWT?

4) There are apparently no real WMDs.

5) We were totally lied to in order for this war to happen. We all KNEW we were being lied to. We were all so incredibly frightened of what happened to us on 11, September 2001 that we just went along with what Dubya and Tony told us. They told us what we wanted to hear. "Bad guys. Loads of them. They want to hurt us like the last bad guys. Let's get them!"

So I feel, like many moderate sorts:

A) Glad Saddam is toast.
B) Angry at how we were lied to and angry about the ridiculous Saddam = Osama bait and switch.
C) Really, really worried about where this war will ultimately end. Generation Y, you have your very own Vietnam.

Bush and Blair? You got your stupid war. I'll vote against you yet again at the very next opportunity. Now bring those poor soldiers home to their families and finish this mess.

Each bunker buster bomb costs 1 million US dollars. They used 4 the last time they tried to "get Saddam" in Bagdhad.

Your tax dollars at work.

Feh.

Denny

[CollegeMama]

Originally posted by Hilary
And - what did it all achieve in the context of 9/11? Anything?

apart from making the world feel that the USA government is run by a mob of Rambos and Arnies???

Oh, it acheived something else Hilary, it got loads of young Muslim men very angry at the Western world and ready to join Osama Bin Ladin and other Jihad groups.
You made reference to the culture of the Middle East not really having the same ideas about time as we do (was it here or another thread?) and I've heard that as well. I've also heard that their MO is to continue to try to get failed targets (one of which is the Los Angeles Airport) even if it has to be several years after the first attempt. Hope LAX beefs up it's security, cause I hear it's lacking from family that lives there.

[Marlena]

Oh, it acheived something else Hilary, it got loads of young Muslim men very angry at the Western world and ready to join Osama Bin Ladin and other Jihad groups.

Yes, this is one of the most disturbing aspects of the situation.

Re the original issue in this thread: Uday and Qusay may have been horrible, awful people. I personally have no idea whether that is or is not the case. Be that as it may, to celebrate their killings by saying, "Yay, we've killed Saddam Hussein's sons!!!" is IMO disgusting. How dare any allegedly civilized nation "get back" at another nation or leader or person or whomever by harming those about whom he is likely to care? It's nothing short of barbaric.

[spatulagirl]

I have something to say on-topic!!

To risk sounding barbaric....

Who cares if they are dead? How in the world is it going to make the situation in Iraq better? Anyone know? Cuz I don't... can't figure it out myself. It will make the Iraqi people feel safer? Yay! Must be great to know that you have no work, no food, no water but Saddam's sons are dead!! Will it stop the attacks on US soldiers? Doubt it.

I agree that they were horrible people, as was/is Saddam. But did these people hurt the U.S. directly? We know Osama did... maybe they should try killing him and his family for a change, if we are going for the whole eye-for-an-eye theme here.

The U.S. has no right to gloat. If Bush were to die and I came on here gloating and doing the happy dance what do you think the reaction would be? Not nice. Yeah yeah.. some will say he shouldn't be compared to them. But if we start gloating about the death of bad people everytime one of them dies? How horrible is that? Yay Alberto Fuji is dead! Yay Kim is dead! Woohoo Taylor is dead! Yay Kevin Kline is dead! Doesn't that sounds awful?

I agree with El Casey all the way!

[Els' 3 Ones]

3 + 2 = 5

Three US soldiers killed in Iraq

[dentente]

I notice the US has released photos of Saddam's two dead sons but no picture of the dead 14 year old. I wonder why not?

War is killing the bad guys. War is also killing innocent people by accident while trying to get the bad guys. The US War machine does not show this aspect of their war. I checked out photos of dead and mained children on the Al Jazeera web site during the main part of inavsion of Bagdad. It was wrenching but it was the part of war missing from the slick graphics and pictograms of soldiers and tanks. There is no pictogram of a dead or maimed child.

War is sometimes necessary. Sometime there is no way out of it. But when you see what it does on the ground to people's lives. Their homes, their babies. To the soldiers who have to do the dirty work. It breaks your heart and it's gut-wrenching. And it is so, so human. This paroxysm of metal and death and strife.

All we have to do to see where we go wrong as fallible human creatures is the image of a dead child killed by a war. Any child. Hussein's. Anyone's. War is the failure of civilzation. It is futility. And it happens. It's happening. It's
sad.

Denny

[El Casey S]

What I'm confused about is why they say they are showing pictures when many articles I've seen say they had to be identified by dental records because of burns. And where did this information come from that the boy was shooting when the troops came in the building? - and the newspapers said all 4 were burned. I am so sick of all the lies going around. Lynch had stab and gun wounds - NOT! Saddam had WMDs - NOT!

[MFuglei]

Originally posted by marcy74
Oh, it acheived something else Hilary, it got loads of young Muslim men very angry at the Western world and ready to join Osama Bin Ladin and other Jihad groups.

And sadly, Marcy. . . the U.S.'s (UN)Patriotic Act has called for the interment of some potentially radical Muslim men in america.

I know a performance poet from Florida who is black, Muslim, and incredibly political and now rotting away in a Florida jail. He's been charged with no crime. His background has been in the process of "being researched" for five months now. He was in the process of being granted American citizenship. So much for that. . .

And what will happen to him? What part of his treatment at the hands of American politicians would call for him to be forgiving and kind???

Sorry, a bit OT, but I had to say it.

[Delta]

I notice the US has released photos of Saddam's two dead sons but no picture of the dead 14 year old. I wonder why not?

The whole reason for releasing the photos was to prove to the Iraqi people that UDAY and QUSAY were dead. Many Iraqis were not believing. As you could infer from that, showing the 14-year old boy is unnecessary to that end.

What I'm confused about is why they say they are showing pictures when many articles I've seen say they had to be identified by dental records because of burns. And where did this information come from that the boy was shooting when the troops came in the building? - and the newspapers said all 4 were burned. I am so sick of all the lies going around. Lynch had stab and gun wounds - NOT! Saddam had WMDs - NOT!

This is the fog of war. There are not cut and dried answers and there is confusion all around. I don't think it's a matter of 'lying.' As for identifying the bodies, for official identification they had to use dental records, but that would prove nothing to the Iraqi people, because they'd say that records could have been manufactured. Yes, photos can theoretically be too, but these don't look that way.

[dentente]

I don't think most of the world is so terribly worried about the sons of Saddam being proven dead. I think there is other proof from the US and the UK they are looking for. I think if they killed four people and are so proud of themselves about it they should show all four people. Or is that 14 year old a bit embarrassing? Hmm... :

Great. They expended major money and muscle to kill four human beings.

Please allow me to now direct your attention (currently diverted by photos of some dead bad guys) to the following:

Where are the WMDs this war was supposed to stop the use of?

Where is Osama Bin Laden?

You may now return to gloating over Bush and Co's little triumph.

Personally I would have loves to see Uday and Qusay go to trial but so it goes.

Denny

[Delta]

I don't think most of the world is so terribly worried about the sons of Saddam being proven dead.

Hrm. Well, this isn't about the rest of the world. It's about what the Iraqi people were asking for.

Some Iraqis demand proof Hussein sons are dead - Boston Globe
"day after American soldiers killed Saddam Hussein's sons Uday and Qusay in a fierce gun battle, the initial public euphoria faded quickly and some skeptical Iraqis yesterday questioned why they had seen no photographs of the corpses or other proof that the notorious brothers had died."

I think there is other proof from the US and the UK they are looking for.

Such as?

I think if they killed four people and are so proud of themselves about it they should show all four people. Or is that 14 year old a bit embarrassing? Hmm...

As I said before, it's not about having 'killed' them. It's about the fact that they are no longer a threat. It lessen the hold SH still has over the people who think he's going to come back.

Skeptical Iraqis ask for proof - New York Times
"On the one hand, a public display could help lessen fear among Iraqis that the regime remains a threat; on the other, the military does not want to appear to be gloating."

Personally I would have loves to see Uday and Qusay go to trial but so it goes.

I agree. I think most people, especially the Iraqis, would have preferred that. They were given the opportunity to surrender but unfortunately, they didn't.

[CollegeMama]

T Mon-
That's so sad about your friend. It's truly scary and reminds me a bit of the treatment of the Jews in WWII's German-occupied countries. It's certainly not as bad yet, but the key word is yet. I fear for the future.

back on topic: I can see releasing the pictures of the dead men in Iraq, but what was the point of doing so here? Ratings folks, that's the point. We're such a sick society!

[Delta]

I can see releasing the pictures of the dead men in Iraq, but what was the point of doing so here? Ratings folks, that's the point. We're such a sick society!

I suppose it is the news. FYI --

The extremely graphic photographs of the dead brothers were distributed on CD-ROM in Baghdad, where many news wire services have reporters stationed. The pictures later were distributed to other news outlets

Pictures released - Fox News

[Marg of Arabia]

Yes, Els, the consequences of our bloody, murderous actions are already being reaped..........



Quote:
"The three American soldiers who died today were members of the 101st Airborne Division, the same division that killed Uday and Qusay Hussein on Tuesday during a four-hour gun battle at a house in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul."

[El Casey S]

Originally posted by marcy74
T Mon-
That's so sad about your friend. It's truly scary and reminds me a bit of the treatment of the Jews in WWII's German-occupied countries. It's certainly not as bad yet, but the key word is yet. I fear for the future.

back on topic: I can see releasing the pictures of the dead men in Iraq, but what was the point of doing so here? Ratings folks, that's the point. We're such a sick society!

Originally posted by Hilary
Dear LKC,

The thing that amuses me, as I said elsewhere, is the presumption that this will reduce the number of attacks on US soldiers.

I predict that when and if they get Saddam, then the number of American soldiers that die will greatly increase.

Originally posted by Marg of Arabia
Yes, Els, the consequences of our bloody, murderous actions are already being reaped..........



Quote:
"The three American soldiers who died today were members of the 101st Airborne Division, the same division that killed Uday and Qusay Hussein on Tuesday during a four-hour gun battle at a house in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul."

You know - I really think that the US/Allies (or whatever they call themsleves) have enough varieties of groups not liking them for their own special reasons - and yet they still go around stiring up the hornets nest . . . (ie.: "Bring 'em on!" etc.). My DH has a Master of Diplomacy and has spent his entire life studying the causes of various historical, political experiences - and especially Germany's (he's half German). And he sees so many slippery comparisons to Germany in the 30's here. So do so many Germans - but gee - what do they know? They only lived through it.:

[RowansDad]

Originally posted by marcy74
We're such a sick society!

In light of the following links, you wanna define what 'society' you're referring to:

http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987...28787-,00.html

[WARNING Le Figaro doesn't give a reader a head's up]
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international...4.FIG0272.html

[another WARNING]
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/default.asp

[Ditto on the WARNING]

http://www.welt.de/

[Ditto on the WARNING]

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/index.html

[Yet another WARNING]

http://www.spiegel.de

[Another WARNING]

http://www.elpais.es/

http://elmundo.es/

[WARNING]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...005281,00.html

[WARNING]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/

[WARNING]

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/s...International/

[WARNING]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...8853222010.htm

[WARNING]

http://www.clarin.com/diario/hoy/um/m-594227.htm

[WARNING]

http://www.el-universal.com.mx/pls/i...65&tabla=notas

[Marg of Arabia]

What is your point?? R.D.?

[Deirdre]

Umm, I think this is on topic to one of the off topic items on this thread

My friend's son just returned from Iraq (he was visiting an Army Ranger friend there and also partly business trip) When he returned his Mom asked what the people of Iraq want/need from us, i.e. food, water, money, medicine. His reply was that the Iraqi people want one thing and one thing only: for the the US to get out of their country.

I am sure our servicepeople know this and it saddens me to think of what it does to their morale/motivation to remain there as "peacekeepers". I am just counting the days before our servicepeople turn against this war/occupation (like they did in Vietnam.

[dentente]

Her point is that we are an entire planet of road-side accident gawkers. We are collectively unable to choose NOT to look. Everyone who CAn will look. Indeed. Who can not look is the question.

If you don't like ugly then mothball the TV. I read my news on yahoo now and if something gross comes up I won't click on the link. Why take my delicate sensibilites there at all? ESPECIALLY if I am pg or pms. Ugh!Still not over clicking the link on the story about murdered chinese babies.

Denny