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Is this too harsh of a punishment? - Page 6

post #101 of 204
[QUOTEThe other night at the park, 4 y.o. DD threw a really bad tantrum as we were leaving (because I would not let her ride another child's bike to our car). ][/QUOTE]


If I reading this right, the tantrum was NOT over leaving the playground, it was becaues you wouldn't let her ride ANOTHER child's bike to your car. That is completely differeint IMO, than a tantrum over not wanting to leave. In my opinion, a 4 yo is well old enough to understand that we DO NOT take other children's toys with us. Even my 2 year old can understand that "that bike is someone else's, we can't take it" and doesn't have tantrums over it.

It seems to me then, that she was acting developmentally immature (a tantrum over leaving the playground is more "normal" than a tantrum over not riding another child's bike. A 4-yo should be able to understand that we don't use/take other children's toys.

Yes, tantrums are normal for 4 yo's but you also have to look at the cause of the tantrum..what precipitated it. If it was over something that a child would "normally" be able to handle then I think it shows the child is overtired, overstimulated, low blood sugar, etc. THAT needs to be addressed, in this case a possible cause was overstimulation/overtiredness due to a day of school and then playgroup.

I would have quietly just stopped going to playgroups on school days for awhile. It does sound as though she can't handle playgroup after a full-day of school. Which is totally normal...I know when I was in the school, that I just wanted quiet time/time to myself when I got home (at least for a little bit to unwind).
post #102 of 204
I probably would have done the same thing. Maybe not using the word "punishment". But, we would have taken a break from playgroup too.

At the age of four, they KNOW they cannot ride another child's bike to their car. "No means no" in my house. I choose my "no's" carefully, but when I say it, I mean it.

At the age of four, a meltdown over not being able to take another child's bike to the care, would also not have been acceptable.

If you tell her that "We are taking a week off of playgroup, because it seems to make you upset when we go". Then no matter what, you need to stick to it. It doesn't do any good to make a "threat" and not follow through.

It may have been harsh, and she was probably very sad. But, I would have stuck to it too.
post #103 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.


But you know what LAB, you gotta take this with a grain of salt, at the same time. Lots of people adore criticizing each other's parenting over the internet. It is a bit ironic that this kind of mobbing happens so frequently in the GD forum, and that the "you're being too harsh" messages seemingly cannot be delivered without shaming, attacking, and overly harsh judgment of the mama.

It's kind of like posting in the Pets forum, though, kwim? Drama shall abound. And unfortunately when you put "harsh" and "punishment" in a thread title here, this is a pretty predictable result, IMO regardless of the actual content of the OP.

Feel better soon! Don't take internet judgment too seriously, mama. It is easy to do, I know because I did it a few times myself in this forum, but you have to consider where you are posting and the fact that people really don't have a clue what is going on in your family, they are reacting to (in this case, some trigger) words on the net.
post #104 of 204
I know you have already gotten a lot of comments on this and would like it dropped, however I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you (littleaugustbaby) and think that if you do not "put your foot down" on some issue's like the screaming and hitting, then your letting your child walk all over you. Sometimes you have to remind them who is the child and who is the parent. You HAVE to teach your child what is right and what is wrong...and the way she was acting was wrong. I usually give warnings to my children. I remind them (when they are starting to throw a tantrum in the public eye) about a "special event" that might be coming up and ask them if they still would like to go. When they respond "YES" then I remind them that the way they are acting is not nice/wrong and if they continue then they will not be able to attend that "special event". That seems to work with both of my children. If they continue to throw the tantrums then I would have stuck to my punishment too...not going to that "special event"!!!

~I watch my mother let my brother throw those type of tantrums. She would say "after-wards" that the way he acted was not nice, however she would never punch him. Now he has no respect for her. He is now in his teens and he still yells at her and acts like she is a '"nobody"!
post #105 of 204
for the record, i don't just stand there and let my four-year-old beat on me, either...but i DO recognize that she can't control herself.

i'll restrain her arms, or leave the room if she's trying to hit me...and let her know that hitting is NEVER acceptable. she can beat her bed or the ground all day long.

knowing that something is natural and gonna happen...and riding through it...is not the same thing as just "accepting" being hit.

everything's a learning experience.
post #106 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaMommyof2 View Post
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=purple]I know you have already gotten a lot of comments on this and would like it dropped, however I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you (littleaugustbaby) and think that if you do not "put your foot down" on some issue's like the screaming and hitting, then your letting your child walk all over you.
Sometimes you have to remind them who is the child and who is the parent.

~I watch my mother let my brother throw those type of tantrums. She would say "after-wards" that the way he acted was not nice, however she would never punch him. Now he has no respect for her. He is now in his teens and he still yells at her and acts like she is a '"nobody"!

Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?
post #107 of 204
Nevermind, I misread the post before me.
post #108 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkeris View Post
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?
I know you did not ask me, but I think two things. Yes children want to do right things naturally. Children also test limits, test to see what mama does in extreme situations, whether mama still loves them, and what mama will *do* to restore balance. All human relationships contain elements of power, and our relationships with our children are no different.

I know too many overly "GD'ed" kids whose behaviour is deplorable, intentionally. I do not believe these are bad children, I believe they are looking for the edge, and because the parents believe they should not impose limits in the name of saving the child's precious eggshell psyche, they never find that edge.

They are not fun children to be around.
post #109 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkeris View Post
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?
This question wasn't for me.

But, some kids do want to do the right things naturally. Some kids want to do the opposite of what they are supposed to do.

I have one daycare girl that will choose the Opposite of what we are doing. She would argue with ANYBODY, even if she knows she is wrong. She will risk her very life to "Do it", because "it" popped into her head, and now she is determined to accomplish whatever feat she has set out to do.

If we say "walk" she runs. If I say "Please close the door" she opens it farther.

She is NOT misunderstanding me. She loves to choose the wrong thing. She enjoys the reactions.

She is of course extremely bright, and has a personality to go with her stubborness, the kids adore her, she is cute and fun, and drives me batty all at the same time.

So, my answer is "It depends on the kid"
post #110 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkeris View Post
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?
I know this wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that I believe children want to do the right things naturally.

I think that a lot of people feel like kids will try to "Walk all over you" and it really shows in the way that they parent. I used to think that way, and boy did things improve around here once I got rid of that Me vs Child attitude of parenting.

FWIW my son is a really nice kid, and gets along great with other people. We do GD and CL and it really works for us. He doesn't need punishments in order to learn things. I think that lots of people think that kids can't learn unless they are punished or made to suffer. You can't let them "Get away with" doing anything that you (general you) don't deem appropriate etc...


Power struggle parenting doesn't seem to do anything except create more power struggles.
post #111 of 204
i don't necessarily think that a child "wants" to do the right thing...not at first.

a child craves approval and attention. if they aren't getting positive attention and approval...they'll learn to go after negative attention.

that's when you have a problem...
post #112 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriforeman View Post
i don't necessarily think that a child "wants" to do the right thing...not at first.

a child craves approval and attention. if they aren't getting positive attention and approval...they'll learn to go after negative attention.

that's when you have a problem...
I disagree. The children I know get *tons* of positive attention and approval. And still behave horribly. The parents are pushovers and ineffective.

When I watch these same children, they are better, although still fairly unpleasant. I take less crap.
post #113 of 204
Originally Posted by kkeris http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s/viewpost.gif
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?

************************************************** ********
Yes I believe children want to do the right things and want to make their parents happy, however they also are in the process of "finding themselves" and do want to test their limits. Not because they WANT to be bad, but just because everything is new and they want to see how much they can do. If you do not set some type of limits then they think that what they are doing is ok and will continue to act that way.

As far as my mother....my point was that she never set limits or made my little brother understand that she would not let him act that way and now that he is a teenager she is trying to set limits and he is outraged and thinks that she has no say...why? because he never had limits when he was younger.

You can gain respect from your children without fear (please don't try to put words in my mouth that I never said). Both my children respect me and understand that when I say "no" or "don't do that" that I don't like what they are doing. They understand that they will not be rewarded for doing something that I do not like. And children love rewards!!!
post #114 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I disagree. The children I know get *tons* of positive attention and approval. And still behave horribly. The parents are pushovers and ineffective.

When I watch these same children, they are better, although still fairly unpleasant. I take less crap.
then i would think that their parents, maybe unintentionally...are reinforcing their bad behavior.

if a child throws a fit, and mama gives them what they wants to shut them up...they've just reinforced the fit. that is, of course, a cut and dry example...many others are not so easy to see.

positive attention has to be met with discipline (please don't read punishment, i'm more for behavioral methods).
post #115 of 204
OP, I think you did fine.
I probl. would've talked to her about it once at home and explained WHY it's not acceptable. Asked her how you can help her, etc. Then, said you'd give her a chance at the next playdate to show you're a team, etc. If she blew it at that one, I'd have skipped the next one regardless of the content.

Each of my kids has gone through a phase of being inappropriate at playdates. I left the sibling and left IMMEDIATELY w/the tantrum-ing child. Seriously, it took once w/one child and 2 times w/the other child. After that event, I just had to ask them to stop and think about what they were doing and what the consequences would be.

Good luck!
post #116 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriforeman View Post
then i would think that their parents, maybe unintentionally...are reinforcing their bad behavior.

if a child throws a fit, and mama gives them what they wants to shut them up...they've just reinforced the fit. that is, of course, a cut and dry example...many others are not so easy to see.

positive attention has to be met with discipline (please don't read punishment, i'm more for behavioral methods).
Yes, sometimes they are actively rewarded. But more often they are just not prevented from doing things that wreak havoc. Or, mama absorbes the negative consequences of the child's behaviour to protect the child.

Examples from my real life:

- Child has a string of bad behaviour with a group of friends and mamas, including running too close to the road, swinging off a freezer door potentially breaking it or pulling the fridge down on himself, hitting other children, culminating in pumping a large jar of expensive soap down a drain in another mama's home.

Child's mother responds to each incident with ineffective sing-songy 'reminders' about why xyz is not good to do, information the child already has, entirely missing the point that the behaviour is done with intention, not because he doesn't know any better. No consequences at all. Finally I left, as I was going to murder him, behaviour was still ongoing.

- Child deliberately pours small craft supplies and toys all over the floor, creating a horrible giant mess. Intentionally. Mama cleans mess with minimal 'help' from the child, as of course it is too big of a job for him to do entirely or mostly on his own!

- Child runs under a fence and over rocks too close to a river, ignoring father's pleas to return because it is dangerous. When he finally gets the child back, he holds his hand and the child yells that he is hurting him (not true). Father throws his hands into the air, saying alarmedly, "Oh! I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to hurt you!" Child runs off to create more drama.

Those kinds of things. There is a pattern created where the child is almost constantly looking for ways to behave negatively. I am noticing it prominently with one of my daughter's good friends right now, but it is a wider theme among a few GD'ed children I know.

The commonality for me is that the parents have taken GD to mean a prohibition on consequences, being assertive, or enforcing limits with the children. There is a terrible imbalance currently among a segment of my particular IRL social circle, and the children are horrid to be around. They are not bad children, of course. But their behaviour is currently just awful. It makes things unpleasant for the parents and greatly limits what the parents can do with their children, or how enjoyable a time they can have.

I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.
post #117 of 204
Hey, LAB

You don’t have to answer this but I wonder if part of what’s going on with you is that you found a solution which, on the surface, some of your IRL friends and some of you on-line friends feel is not developmentally appropriate and something that, perhaps, even you don’t agree with on a philosophical level that turns out to work well for you and your child.

I’ve been there and it’s a different way to look at parenting and discipline. It takes a special kind of confidence and it takes knowing your child (and yourself) like only you can. I think that this is a learning experience that many, if not most, of us have to go through at some point.

What helps me is to acknowledge that this discrepancy is there. And maybe it isn’t there for you but I do think it’s an important thing to know how to do as a parent. Not every choice we make is going to fit neatly into our idea of how we think things should be and that’s OK.

The best advice I ever got from a mama was when I asked her if she thought her choice was the “right” thing to do and she answered, “I don’t think it was the right thing to do but I think it was and OK thing to do.”

Hugs to you!!!
post #118 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaMommyof2 View Post
Originally Posted by kkeris http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s/viewpost.gif
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?

************************************************** ********
Yes I believe children want to do the right things and want to make their parents happy, however they also are in the process of "finding themselves" and do want to test their limits. Not because they WANT to be bad, but just because everything is new and they want to see how much they can do. If you do not set some type of limits then they think that what they are doing is ok and will continue to act that way.

As far as my mother....my point was that she never set limits or made my little brother understand that she would not let him act that way and now that he is a teenager she is trying to set limits and he is outraged and thinks that she has no say...why? because he never had limits when he was younger.

You can gain respect from your children without fear (please don't try to put words in my mouth that I never said). Both my children respect me and understand that when I say "no" or "don't do that" that I don't like what they are doing. They understand that they will not be rewarded for doing something that I do not like. And children love rewards!!!
I also think kids need, and want limits. My daughter has NEVER been punished. But, she has had lots of limits, and has had lots of consequenses. There have been a couple of times where she couldn't go somewhere because of her past behavior. There were times, when she made a scene in a store, and we went home. Where I left her with Daddy, and went back to the store without her. She WANTED to be with me. So, she only made a scene once or twice, then she learned that it was more fun to enjoy the trip. She always got something at the store. Usually a cookie, or a new pacifier, or a box of Dixie cups (weird Dixie cup obsession for a while)

My child is 15 now. She works hard in school, she is sloppy at home, but overall, she is well rounded, and a really good and happy kid. She has friends who's parents let them "run the household" who are now getting into a lot of trouble, because the world has rules, and the kids don't like them.

One of our friend's son is in prison for 13 years because he didn't like the world's rules, and he killed two kids last year. He didn't MEAN to kill them, but he didn't think he should have "rules" imposed on him, and he made a choice that caused the death of two other teens.
post #119 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.
The sad part is, these are the kids who other families wont invite over, they will turn down invitations to their homes or parties.

It's the kids who suffer, because nobody likes them. It isn't the children's fault. But, they are the ones that other kids and parents whisper about. Nobody says "The parents did XYZ" they say "Did you see how those kids behaved? That is the last time I have those kids over here".
post #120 of 204
ITA with Thismama that lots of parents who GD think that means let your kids do whatever they want and just follow behind them picking up the pieces.

Kids don't learn anything that way.

I have a friend IRL whose child just gets worse with each passing day. I don't like Owen to play with this kid anymore because he picks up so many TERRIBLE things from this kid. This kid will see a cat and all he wants to do is kick and chase it. He sees a butterfly and he wants to crush i. He tells my son to hit me with things, and he can get really violent.

His parents are just way to Wishy Washy about all of it, and this kid cannot figure out where his boundaries are. So he is constantly testing.

We are basically at a point where the friendship is unravelling because I cannot stand to be around this child. And how do you tell someone that?

thismama is pointing out a truth in GD that I am sure we have all seen at one time or another. I think of it as passive/permissive parenting (something I read here long ago...) and it turns perfectly good kids into people that I don't want to be around.

thismama I am sorry that you are dealing with this from so many different friends right now. It can really end up being a deal breaker.
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