Is this too harsh of a punishment? - Page 9

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

I guess I just want people to understand that, you know, you really can do all the right things and have a different outcome.

Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by ameliabedelia

but I absolutely would not let them use another child's toy without permission. EVERY child deserves respect..not just your own.

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally agree with respect for the other child as well. I think we'd have to take each situation as it came. I choose to be present with my child and the owner of the bike to find a solution which works for both of them. I talk to ds before we take anything to the park, so that he can be aware and empowered that others might request to play with his toys. I try not to project a story onto my child or another child and we'd honor the child's response.


Pat

[swampangel]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.

You hit the nail on the head here. I might as well be quiet because you said it all and there's nothing I could add....well said!!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Captain Crunchy and Dubfam,

I’m hearing from you that an ideal form of GD works for you and your child(ren). What I’m hearing from others is that they been trying that and it hasn’t had quite as positive of an experience.

From what I can tell, we have a situation where you either think they are doing it wrong or, the more likely scenario, is that your “method” does not work well for those families in whatever stage they’re in.

I also hear some parents say that things were going along well when their kids were younger and that things changed as the children grew. This is a valid point and I don’t think it’s intended to be condescending. It’s just the way things are.

For the record I was raised GD. At one point when I was older I asked to be rewarded with cash money for grades and my parents went along with it. (this is not something that I feel falls under “ideal” in the GD world)

My point is, that as children grow (whether that be to 2 or 20) they begin to tell us what works for them and we need to honor that even if it goes slightly outside of our ideals (within reason, of course).

I did not even consider a reward system for DC until she was 5.5. I still feel it’s a really bad idea. But, she wanted to do something that was really difficult for her and TOLD ME that this would help her. DC has been asking for a chore chart, another thing that I never imagined hanging in my home. Oh, my… : - )

Does this mean that we start implementing harsh punishments because it seems to “work” for our child? No, I don’t think so. I think one should reflect on the situation, take full responsibility for any role we may have played in getting our child to that place where they were punished, work hard getting back to a place where discipline fits our ideas, and figure out the core of why the punishment seemed to work.

On a funny note, we had a really difficult holiday season last year. Since then, I’ve found out that DC just can’t travel with the same stamina that I can and that ANY TV puts her out of sorts but I didn’t know that at the time. I was just a loss as to why my normally fun happy kid was acting so crazy. After one particularly ridiculous incident I told here she was going to get punished if she did it again. She stopped and I thought, “Oh, sh!t.” I hadn’t gotten around to giving her punishment yet when we began talking about the situation and she said, “Mama, what’s a punishment and when can I have it?”

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

Captain Crunchy and Dubfam,

I’m hearing from you that an ideal form of GD works for you and your child(ren). What I’m hearing from others is that they been trying that and it hasn’t had quite as positive of an experience.

From what I can tell, we have a situation where you either think they are doing it wrong or, the more likely scenario, is that your “method” does not work well for those families in whatever stage they’re in.

Are you saying that GD doesn't work for everyone? I never said that it did. Maybe there are kids out their that GD wouldn't work for.

I think that people have been implying that kids cant possibly learn unless they are punished. I strongly disagree with that, and that is what most of my post have been about.

I don;t know what you mean by my "Method" as I haven't referenced anything other than GD...and I thought that we were in the GD forum. I haven't even gotten into very many specifics. Maybe you are confusing me with other ppl?

[savithny]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

This happened to us the other day in fact at the park -- so I have been there and I find it a tad annoying when I get condescending statements like "oh my kid was a joy at *whatever-your-kid's-age-is* ... just wait until *your-kid-is-my-kid's-age*. That way, (collective) you will always have a one up on the other person... as my kid will NEVER be your kid's age when your kid is their age... follow?

I hope you aren't taking my question as one of the "wait until you have a kid my age" questions. It wasn't meant as condescending at all!

My problem is this - I get the theory. I have read the theories. I love theory - but I tend to fall down in the theory-to-practice moment.

So when someone (you, in this case) says "I will not consent to being screamed at, and they know that." I really *would* like concrete examples of how others do that -- what are ways to convey that to a 2-3-4 year old, without shaming or punishing? Ways that are safe in a public park?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by dubfam

Are you saying that GD doesn't work for everyone? I never said that it did. Maybe there are kids out their that GD wouldn't work for.

...

I don;t know what you mean by my "Method" as I haven't referenced anything other than GD...and I thought that we were in the GD forum. I haven't even gotten into very many specifics. Maybe you are confusing me with other ppl?

On the contrary, I do think that GD works for all kids and I think it’s the only ethical way to discipline.

I just think that GD has many different faces, if you get my meaning. There are people who think “logical consequences” aka (imo) punishments fall within GD. There are people who think that rewards fall into GD and so on and so on.

I was responding to the impression I got from you that a particular form of GD that works for you would work for everyone.

Originally Posted by dubfam

I think that people have been implying that kids cant possibly learn unless they are punished. I strongly disagree with that, and that is what most of my post have been about.

I agree with you 100%. But, this gets back to the semantical thing. I, personally, think that we make very subtle and complex distinctions between natural consequences, logical ones and punishments. It is often confusing to me. I no longer believe that children receive these distinctions as clearly as we think they do.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

On the contrary, I do think that GD works for all kids and I think it’s the only ethical way to discipline.

I just think that GD has many different faces, if you get my meaning. There are people who think “logical consequences” aka (imo) punishments fall within GD. There are people who think that rewards fall into GD and so on and so on.

I was responding to the impression I got from you that a particular form of GD that works for you would work for everyone.

And what did I post that led you to that impression?

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.

: I have 2 kids who are 13.5 years apart and lets just say I thought I knew all about kids, man my dd who is 2 has made me eat humble pie on many occasions.

Your post brought up some really relevant points that I feel never discussed on these boards or even in some of the books that are often touted. I am convinced that some of these authors have extremely mellow laid back kids and guess what its easy peasy to dole out the advice when you don't have the kid that pushes every last button.

Shay

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by dubfam

And what did I post that led you to that impression?

Originally Posted by dubfam

And it really does work in our house.

ETA: Dubfam - I just got the impression. I'm totally open to having gotten the wrong one!! Sorry, if I jumped to conclusions.

We may just have a different impression of GD. Perhaps the books you have read and the discussions here lately have given you an impression that GD is a much narrower concept than the impression I get. And, that’s OK. Honestly, I haven’t been around this form for a long time and it may be that things have changed.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by savithny

I really *would* like concrete examples of how others do that -- what are ways to convey that to a 2-3-4 year old, without shaming or punishing? Ways that are safe in a public park?

I would just say "I don't like to be talked to in that tone of voice, please." And pretty much, if she were raising her voice to me, there would be something she felt pretty strongly about communicating. So then I'd focus on dealing with that issue with her.

Sometimes I think people are a little too quick to write off the parenting skills or techniques that they see working well with other kids, and unfairly attribute too much to the personality or character of the child with whom they are struggling.

It just makes sense. In the work place, some people can come into a situation and motivate and inspire everyone present. Another individual might have a negative effect on that very same group of people, encounter only opposition and hardship, and will walk out complaining about how difficult and unmanageable the group was.

I've seen it with dd's teachers. Dd comes from a background very high risk for problems with socialization and behavior. When she was challenged by a teacher with poor skills, she became profoundly dysfunctional in a classroom setting, to the point where they started tossing out the idea of testing and official diagnoses.

Taken to a new setting with an excellent teacher and she was again a model child, considered one of the easiest and brightest children in the class.

One of dd's Waldorf teachers was talking about dealing with tough kids. She remarked 'when I find myself struggling with a child, I step back and ask myself - what is it that this child needs that I'm not providing? Nearly always there is an answer, and when it is applied, everything improves.'

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.

[towsonmama]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

But, this gets back to the semantical thing. I, personally, think that we make very subtle and complex distinctions between natural consequences, logical ones and punishments. It is often confusing to me. I no longer believe that children receive these distinctions as clearly as we think they do.

Hi, ICM!! I've been thinking about you lately.

I also struggle with the semantics used here in the GD forum. I think it's a large part of the reason I've been shying away from MDC lately. There are strong feelings stirred by the use of these words and oftentimes it seems to me people are arguing about the same thing but calling it something different.

LAB, you're probably not even reading this thread anymore but fwiw it sounds like you tried to make the best decision you could in a heated moment and the fact that you later examined your choice and sought input is admirable. I don't have any suggestions because you already stated you think staying away from playgroup worked. My dd is 4.5 and very prone to getting overtired and tantrum-y. I'm working on minimizing the triggers the best I can--even though for me that means more time at home than I'd like.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by blessed

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.

:

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by blessed

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.

I kind of think that is why most of us are here....to learn and grow as parents. I think that we are here because we *are* open to learning how to parent without coersion and punishment. Many, many of us here hold that up as the gold standard--me included!

But what I am saying is, our family moved and my dd lost her freaking mind. SHe is so angry some days that her only desire is for me to be miserable. Some days she wakes up with that goal and keeps it all. day. long.

Now, millions of families move every year. How many children react this way? To this extent? I am guessing I didn't get the "easy" child, kwim?

And, right now, I am having to open my parenting toolbox *really* wide to maintain any sort of peace in my home. I am looking forward to the day that we can ditch the consequences/punishments (I, too, find these distinctions incredibly complex) and return to discipline based on a strong relationship. But that is just not working for us right now. And, yes, I believe that is because of dd's personality.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

ETA: Dubfam - I just got the impression. I'm totally open to having gotten the wrong one!! Sorry, if I jumped to conclusions.

We may just have a different impression of GD. Perhaps the books you have read and the discussions here lately have given you an impression that GD is a much narrower concept than the impression I get. And, that’s OK. Honestly, I haven’t been around this form for a long time and it may be that things have changed.

Again, I would like to know what I posted that suggested that I have a narrow view of GD, or an unusual one. I really am not getting what you are referring to. I have only stated that we use GD and don't believe in using punishments. I don't think that I got into any real specifics of how I parent otherwise.

I know you aren't being snarky, and that isn't where I am coming from either. I just want to understand what I posted that led you to think this?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by dubfam

Again, I would like to know what I posted that suggested that I have a narrow view of GD, or an unusual one. I really am not getting what you are referring to. I have only stated that we use GD and don't believe in using punishments. I don't think that I got into any real specifics of how I parent otherwise.

I know you aren't being snarky, and that isn't where I am coming from either. I just want to understand what I posted that led you to think this?

I know you didn’t. That’s why I said I got an impression and I can’t really say exactly where I got it from. And, I didn’t mean “narrow” as in “narrow minded” or anything like that. Honestly, I kind of got the impression that you were more like me and many, many of others here who believe that punishments, logical consequences, reward systems and etc. are not ideal.

My point was that, if you have that ideal and everything works out for you, great but that others may be in the exact same situation and find that it’s just not working. And, like Sunnmama described, may have to open their GD toolbox further than they would like.

And that probably gets me to where I got the impression that an ideal form of GD is working for you…because I just can’t see anyone resorting to logical consequences or reward systems and saying that things are really working great for their family because if I was doing this I would consider us to be in a challenging place.

Does that make sense?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by towsonmama

Hi, ICM!! I've been thinking about you lately.

Hey, TM!!

Originally Posted by sunnmama

And, right now, I am having to open my parenting toolbox *really* wide to maintain any sort of peace in my home. I am looking forward to the day that we can ditch the consequences/punishments (I, too, find these distinctions incredibly complex) and return to discipline based on a strong relationship. But that is just not working for us right now. And, yes, I believe that is because of dd's personality.

s

[my3peanuts]

I haven't read all the replies but my opinion is that what you did was ok. Sure you could've probably done something differently but someone here said what you did was 'cruel' and I absolutely disagree. If keeping your dd from a party & then coming to a Gentle Discipline forum and asking for advice on what you did is cruel mothering than wow, I don't even know what we'd call someone who beats their child with a belt. Because to me, THAT is cruel.

Anyway, just wanted to get that out and say I think you sound like a great mom.

[Mammy Julie]

Originally Posted by blessed

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.

ITA. I dont think theres such a thing as a difficult child or an easy child - I prefer to think of it as an easy or difficult relationship. Even children who are considered difficult will come across someone in their life who truly brings out the best in them so that to me suggests that its not the child but the way people relate to him/her. Just as as adults we meet people who we are compatible with and some we arent - we still need to find ways to get along. I guess the difficult part is figuring out exactly which way will suit that child but I dont think punishment has its place. In fact I would go so far as to say for a child who is really showing challenging behaviour that punishment is probably the worst thing you could do.

Punishment to me comes under conditional parenting - if I dont like what you are doing I will punish you for it. Children want to feel accepted and if they dont get that acceptance from their parents where will they get it from? Yes they need direction and its not unreasonable to tell a child when you dont want them to hit you. If Adam hits out i look him in the eye and tell him 'I dont like to be hit. It hurts me.' or I will ask him why he is hitting me. If he hits out during a tantrum I will physically restrain him by holding onto his hands if needed - whilst I think a tantrum is a good way of letting off steam I wont accept injury as a result of it and I think thats a good way of giving him that message without needing to punish. I have also in the past encouraged him to hit into a pillow to get out his frustration.

I dont think any child wants to have tantrums and I think having those strong emotions and not knowing how to express them is scary for them. Punishing for them can do 2 things - it can make them hold in those emotions rather then finding more appropriate ways of expressing them and in some ways it makes them feel they have been punished twice - by the tantrum and by their parents reaction to it. For me the best way of handling tantrums is not to give in to what they are for. So in the case of the op her dc had a tantrum because she wanted to play on the other childs bike - she did not get to play on the childs bike so wont see tantrums as getting her her own way. Thats a lesson in itself without needing to punish.

I do agree that maybe staying away from play group for a while was the best thing to do but only because she was overtired and obviously found it overwhelming. I personally wouldnt have put it to the child that it was as a result of her tantrum.

Another thing that caught my attention that no-one has touched on is what she said to you about her dad. I know I'm new on here so I do apologise if I'm overstepping the mark but it did make me wonder about her relationship with her dad especially since at a time when she was out of control she still was able to throw that at you. My sister is a single mum and her children had similar outbursts around that age. I think they felt insecure in their relationship with him and that in turn made them worry about their relationship with my sister even though she was always there for them.Not sure if that makes sense but as someone else said the issues faced by single parent families are slightely different and I wondered if the tantrums could be an outlet for her feelings about that iyswim.

[dawnfla]

I feel that was an acceptable punishment. But really, it matters what you think, you know your child best and her level of understanding. Will she stop and realize next time that if she does it again she will miss out? Only you know as her mom.
I have had others disagree with certain punishment choices, but i understand my children and their feelings, as long as i am trying ( thats all we can do right?) to teach right from wrong, then i decide what would be best. What work for some wont work for other children.
In my own house, i can rationaize and explain with my oldest, and it will have an affect. My middle will roll the eyes at me and do it again in 10 minutes without a consequence