Is this too harsh of a punishment? - Page 2

[veggijessie]

Originally Posted by its_our_family

In our house that would be an appropriate punishment.

If you cannot control yourself at a playgroup function then you do not get to go to playgroup. It is a fun event and if their behavior makes it unfun for others then they don't get to go.

:

My thoughts exactly.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by veggijessie

:

My thoughts exactly.

And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

[amaretto]

I cannot say if it was harsh or inappropriate because I do not know your DD. But it was certainly ineffective.

I believe it was punishment and I believe punishment reinforces the bad behaviour. I still remember my own tantrums and I remember I felt like I had very good reasons to behave like that. No punishment would change my attitude. But I think it would make a huge difference if someone acknowledged my feelings and helped me handle them.

Although I have figured this out, my first thought about alike situations is punitive. I also think I should punish myself for this thought. I guess before parenting my children I should parent myself.

Roar's approach would be my second thought and hopefully the one to prevail.

[jeteaa]

Originally Posted by aprildawn

The only thing that worked was for us to stop getting into situations where she would tantrum when it was time to leave. For me that also meant I didn't get to socialize and hang out with my friends sometimes. Once she realized her friends were getting together for lunch at So-n-So's house, but we weren't going because she would throw a tantrum when we left, the tantrums were diminished.

that sounds to me like what the OP was trying to do. And if it worked for you, maybe if the OP sticks with it, it will work for them (if this is a consistent issue).

[jeteaa]

Originally Posted by UUMom

And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

why do you think this thread would be shut down? I think the OP's situation is VERY common. If your 14 yr old was drinking at a party, would you let him/her go to another party the next night? So if somewhere between 4 and 14 its ok to use this "punishment".... I would like to know when that is.

[mommy2AandZ]

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

Forgot to add..

I think that a huge part of the problem also was that she was very tired by the time the whole thing went down, she had been at school all day and then we went to the park after, so by the time we went home, I'm sure she was really exhausted. ...

I think you hit the nail on the head. My son only throws tantrums when he is WAY overtired. He has a relaxed personality, so for him to have a meltdown means he is tired. I don't punish ect. for meltdowns, because for the simple fact they can't be controlled. I have meltdowns when I'm overtired. It's my responsibility to help my child get the sleep he needs, so I think of his meltdown as my failure to get him proper sleep. Although now a days it's easier said than done since he won't nap most days, even though he should.

I also think it was too harsh just for the simple fact that I don't think during a meltdown they can think "logically" about a consequnce. I agree the pizza party had nothing to do with this meltdown.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho.....


I agree with the overall tone of this thread. It probably isn't the best approach, but it isn't horribly harsh imo. And, in fact, your dd seemed to have handled it well and even seemed to make the connection.

At 4, and still now at 6, preventing the meltdown is always preferable to dealing with the meltdown. But I am finding that (for me) there needs to be some limits on what kind of emotional outbursts are acceptable, even during meltdowns. I think it is ok to make clear that hitting isn't acceptable. Telling my dd that for years, with all the explanations about how it hurts (like she doesn't know) and giving other options, hasn't stopped the hitting. So, yes, we do give consequences for hitting mommy in rage, even in they aren't natural consequences.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

I don't make a thing of tantrums. I'd have put her in the car and gone home. I don't punish tantrums.

[mamajessica]

Originally Posted by UUMom

And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

Wow, thanks for posting this. I was reading and scratching my head, wondering what has happened to Mothering since I last left the PDX forum...

[UUMom]

I am going to ignore those posters who think it's fine to punish 4 yr olds--- or who think punishments are effective for any age. (ignore)

If a child is feeling overwhelmed, then we need to realize that punishing a small child who is tired is sort if like a partner punishing you because had a long and sucky day and fell apart. To a partner you might understand that shit happens-- that he/she needs comfort. If an adult warrents and benefits from kindness, does a child warrent less? (OP, not talking to you here, you asked and I totally respect your asking).

Not in my book. A tired child needs love and compassion even * if * they freak out-- or does whatever else is deemed so horrible that a punishment must be carried over several days hence. ( If a partner would punish you over several days, how long would you stay in such a relationship?)

When an adult loses it (I am not talking murdering an ex wife and her friend while the dog barks incessantly, leaving two children without a mother) we hope that the person who loves us most takes us in his/her arms, lets us know we are not the devil incarnate, and says "Baby, I love you. You had a sucky day, sweets. Let's forget this crummy crap happend. Let's go for a massage, a glass of wine, and a nice dinner. When we get back, I'll rub your feet, run you a nice bath, and then do whatever you tell me to do".

That's what regular, non- serial killer people who are in pain need. That's what many of us wish from loves when the day totally bites ass.

Kids get squat...they get to carry their miserable days over into endless punishments. However, if an adult in a good relationship has a bad day, it's a different story, they expect some love and understanding.

If one thinks a child 4 years into the world deserves something more severe than our compassion, I dont know what to tell any of you.

[RileysmamaNM]

I wouldent beat yourself up over it, just learn from the experience.

[littleaugustbaby]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho.....

Thank you for recognizing that. This was not the type of a meltdown where she was crying over a box of popsicles at the grocery store. This went way beyond that to the point where she was a danger to herself and others. Just getting her strapped into the carseat (which was a necessity at that point so that she did not injure herself) took 2-3 minutes because I could not physically restrain her. It was not in any way possible for me to talk through *anything* with her at that point because she was so completely over the edge. For normal tantrums, talking through it is our normal strategy.

Now that we have a bit of distance from this, we've talked about it as well, and how she felt, what made her so upset, how we can handle it differently in the future, etc. She does understand that Mama felt that it was not a good idea to go tonight because of what happened the other night, and we talked about it and she's ok with it, and she even came up with better ways to handle the situation should it arise again.

FWIW, I don't feel like I've damaged my relationship with her (ouch!) and I am certain that she doesn't feel that way either.

Thanks to everyone for the support and advice. It's given me a lot to think about.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho......

In the case of a 4 yr old? Oh, but they are. They absolutely are.

[earthmama369]

If you're saying that she's too tired after school to go to a playgroup event, and that's what led to the tantrum, I would just tell her that rather than calling it a punishment. As a punishment for a 4-year-old, it does seem pretty harsh, but my oldest is only 2.5 and I certainly get the impulse and have said things myself that were harsher than warranted, due to my own frustration, feelings of impotence, exhaustion, etc.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

and I have to be consistent and stick to the punishment. .

I did want to challenge this idea.....

I think it is totally ok to regret something you threaten in the heat of the moment and take it back. Apologize, explain, and simply take it back if you think that is the best thing to do.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

I did want to challenge this idea.....

I think it is totally ok to regret something you threaten in the heat of the moment and take it back. Apologize, explain, and simply take it back if you think that is the best thing to do.

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[jeteaa]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I am going to ignore those posters who think it's fine to punish 4 yr olds--- or who think punishments are effective for any age. (ignore)

I think this is a petty and immature attitude to take in a general discussion about GD. GD is a complex parenting skill. If those of you can share your GD wisdom, great. But be civil about it!

moving on... I think there IS A AGE though where a child can choose. If you act like "this" or do "that" at the park/ or playgroup etc. Then you don't get to do playgroup. If you draw in the library books, then you don't get to check out library books..... how is this punishment? When they are teens, if they get pulled over for speeding, they get a ticket, and I think the parents should take the car way for a period of time. So how is this diferent from the OPs situation? NOW please don't be cruel, I'm trying to ask a serious GD question.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by jeteaa

why do you think this thread would be shut down? I think the OP's situation is VERY common. If your 14 yr old was drinking at a party, would you let him/her go to another party the next night? So if somewhere between 4 and 14 its ok to use this "punishment".... I would like to know when that is.

That is comparing apples and oranges. children of completely different ages. And I don;t think in the situation that you described the 14 yo is being punished...that sounds like natural consequences. That the 14 yo would understand.

We are talking about a 4 yo kid who was taken to a play date that she was too tired for in the first place. Surprise...she has a tantrum when it is over, and is punished for a week as a result. I don't understand the logic behind this, other than making sure she doesn't "get away with acting like that"

[littleaugustbaby]

Originally Posted by dubfam

We are talking about a 4 yo kid who was taken to a play date that she was too tired for in the first place. Surprise...she has a tantrum when it is over, and is punished for a week as a result. I don't understand the logic behind this, other than making sure she doesn't "get away with acting like that"

Let me clarify.

She did not melt down because we were leaving. She was fine when we left. She melted down when she took another child's bike, and I asked her to get off the bike because we were leaving, and we also did not know the child who owned the bike, and we did not ask their permission first. She was fine until we were almost to the car, when she suddenly threw herself on the ground and it all started from there...delayed reaction, perhaps?

She was not "punished for a week." The only thing that has been taken away are her playgroup outings (1 so far, and AFAIK there are none scheduled for a while) for one week. Other than that, she has not had any other restrictions. She has been to the park, plays outside, has all of her toys, even got a treat at the store yesterday. She has not been locked in her room for a week, or anything like that.

I would like to ask that if people want to disagree, that they could at least offer some advice, because I'm feeling a lot of criticism, but not a whole lotta help. There have been some great ideas, but I'm also feeling like some people are quick to point fingers without offering any real solutions, which really doesn't help anything. So please, if you just want to point out what a crappy mom you think I am, keep it to yourself. Thanks.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by jeteaa

<snip>
I think there IS A AGE though where a child can choose. If you act like "this" or do "that" at the park/ or playgroup etc. Then you don't get to do playgroup. If you draw in the library books, then you don't get to check out library books..... how is this punishment? When they are teens, if they get pulled over for speeding, they get a ticket, and I think the parents should take the car way for a period of time. So how is this diferent from the OPs situation? NOW please don't be cruel, I'm trying to ask a serious GD question.

Having an emotional melt down is completely different from breaking the law or destroying property.

I don;t think that a tantrum needs "consequences" other than the natural ones...like if you throw a tantrum in the store we are leaving. That doesn't mean you don;t get to go to the store again, just that we are leaving right now.

That is the difference.

In this family it is okay for people to have a bad moment and lose their cool. I know I don't always make the best choices when I am upset, why would I hold my 4 yo to a higher standard?

We also don't punish/make consequences for bed wetting, spilled milk, potty accidents etc as we see all of these things as part of being 4 and part of being human. We will help Owen fix these things and offer some guidance, but no punishing.