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Is this too harsh of a punishment? - Page 5

post #81 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
You did ask whether people thought that your punishment was too harsh. You asked if it was Okay...and you asked what others would do.

Those are the questions that people seem to be answering (I am not defending alegna, referring to entire thread)
Those are good points.

But just as in our parenting, we are obligated to consider whether our methods are achieving the desired goal.

In this case our goal is to help each other be more attached and capable parents.

It feels good to chastize the OP - just as on some level it felt good for her to punish her child. But it has the counter effect to what we are trying to accomplish here. Because now she's rejecting our advice and viewpoints, rather than learning from them.
post #82 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
I don;t think that anyone has said that.
I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."
post #83 of 204
But I don;t think that anyone said that consequences for hitting and screaming would be cruel. PP's have said they don't agree with the way this was handled, and have said that they don't believe in Punishment for this...but no one has said there should be no consequence. Just that it shouldn't be punitive.

I think this is where GD starts getting really hard. There is a difference between consequences and punishments. And it can be hard to see the difference.
post #84 of 204
Blessed-ITA with what you are saying.
The OP was coming across as if she just asked for support in her post, I was pointing out that she had asked people to tell her whether they thought this was right or wrong.
I don't think that it is okay to talk down to anyone...kids or adults. It is very unproductive.
post #85 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
I asked for advice, and if you have none to give, could you please drop it?
My advice is that a situation like this needs compassion and parenting when it happens. It will happen. It is normal. It IS frustrating. My advice is to work on controlling your feelings in those situations (something every mom struggles with!) and not punishing for something that a young child doesn't have control over.



-Angela
post #86 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
Honest question, when does hitting in anger become less tolerated as a developmentally appropriate "uncontrollable" impulse? Hitting at 4 seems pretty understandable....but what about 5, 6, 7, 8, 9......? This is something I've been struggling with IRL, and an honest question (not a dig at anyone's philosophy at all).
Like everything- it depends on the situation and the child in question. There are no universal answers in child development.

-Angela
post #87 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."
I don't think that is true. I think it is developmentally appropriate sure, but I also strongly believe that the only people we can control is ourselves. If the child is wanting to scream and hit me, then me honoring my boundaries and not allowing them to hit and scream at me is the only "consequence" they need imo. They have seen me modeling that I will not be hit or screamed at, they have seen that screaming at me or hitting me is not something I will consent to, they see me modeling self-control and my ability to stay calm when I feel frustrated (isn't that what OP is trying to teach? self control?) while also removing myself from a situation where I am not being respected (admittedly this is easier to do in a contained place that is not a park) -- entering in arbitrary consequences doesn't do a thing to model or teach or ensure that my kid won't tantrum.....but maybe doing the above may send a message of effective and healthy conflict resolution and respectful expression of emotion.
post #88 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheartedmama View Post
The point of most pp's is not to criticize you, but to reinforce the fact that the punishment was too harsh, which is what the question was. I don't think anyone meant to hurt you. It seems like you're wanting someone to reassure you that you did the right thing, though.

It didn't seem to me that you were trying to avoid the situation in the future, but using it to teach her a lesson. For a 4 year old, not acknowledging the tantrum, but acknowledging her feelings would be a start. She's also old enough for you to talk to her aside from the situation about how she feels when these meltdowns occur, and brainstorm ideas for how you can both make the situation better. Punishing is never effective. It may work temporarily, but it's not going to change anything in the longterm.
: Bolding mine.

-Angela
post #89 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."
I did say that a *punishment* was not appropriate. And I stick by that. AND I think there is a difference between a consequence and a punishment. A consequence would have been that it was time to leave at that point (in the case that that was not the plan already) A *punishment* is taking away a pizza party a week later. No correlation from a 4 year old point of view. None at all.

-Angela
post #90 of 204
I think your bolding is right on the mark, Angela.

But I still question how best to go about implementing a change in her perspective. Maybe frank honesty and confrontation is the way. Who knows?
post #91 of 204
I also am getting the idea that some of the PPs would simply accept a 4 year old tantruming (with hitting & screaming). If there is to be a consequence for tantrums when leaving the park, but not punishment, what is the consquence of the tantrum?

If a child is told (perhaps after 5 & 2 minute warnings and a reminder of the fun activity planned at home) that it is time to leave the park, and that child either runs away from mom or screams and hits mom while she attempts to carry him to the car - what is the consquence to the child? I am missing something here.

I am also at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?
post #92 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teensy View Post
I also am getting the idea that some of the PPs would simply accept a 4 year old tantruming (with hitting & screaming). If there is to be a consequence for tantrums when leaving the park, but not punishment, what is the consquence of the tantrum?

If a child is told (perhaps after 5 & 2 minute warnings and a reminder of the fun activity planned at home) that it is time to leave the park, and that child either runs away from mom or screams and hits mom while she attempts to carry him to the car - what is the consquence to the child? I am missing something here.

I am also at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?
I wouldn't *accept* tantruming. The consequence is that you STILL don't get what you want (to stay). A tantrum or melt down is not a reason to punish. Not ever.

-Angela
post #93 of 204
I don't punish tantrums either. I tell him there are better ways to express himself, I help him learn those ways, I tell him I understand he's mad but striking out at me isn't OK, I keep myself and him safe, talk about it after he's calm, and then I drop it. There's a difference between addressing a tantrum by teaching your child that it's not an effective way to communicate or get results and guiding them to more appropriate ways (*and* managing tantrum-provoking situations when possible), and punishing them for having one. I do the former, but not the latter.

I also agree with Lynn's entire post. The not going to playdates for a while is a good idea, it's just the framing and presentation of it that wasn't ideal. Then again, I do non-ideal stuff myself, too - everyone does - that's why this board is great to bounce ideas around. Gentle with our kids, gentle with each other, gentle with ourselves. Gentle DOESN'T mean passive, or permissive. It just means not punitive or harsh. BIG difference. Setting limits and boundaries without punishing is entirely possible, and many PPs have given examples.
post #94 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teensy View Post
I am also at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?
There's tired, and then there's overtired. Tired = expending physical energy and feeling good about it, which is what the goal of a park/playground is to me. Overtired=tantrum. At least that's how my kiddo is. So taking them when they've been too stimulated, are hungry, already tired when you go, or any other number of other triggers you know for your own kid, is a recipe for disaster.

JMHO.
post #95 of 204
Maybe the difference is one child versus three, but to me it seems like there should be more of a consquence for hitting mom during a tantrum (or, in my oldest's case on several occassions, running away from me at the playground/pool while I was holding the baby and younger brother too) than simple telling the kid that hitting isn't nice.


I'm not trying to change your opinion, I know that's not going to happen. I guess I want OP to know that she's not alone if she thinks an actual consquence to dangerous behavior is appropriate. Running away in a parking lot could get her DD killed. So yeah, I think something more that just a talk might be appropriate.
post #96 of 204
I only read a few of the other responses & wanted to say that

1. I don't think it was necessarily too harsh (I don't know how it was said, whether there was a lot of yelling or you told her calmly, etc.)

2. BUT I do think sometimes consquences that are that far after the fact might not be your best bet for a 4 year old. I know what you mean about - leaving at that moment wasn't "enough" of a consequence since you were leaving anyway. It might be hard for your 4 year old to connect her tantrum behavior to the missed pizza party. It may have been "enough" just to not give in to the tantrum.

A teen can connect events several days apart in a way that a 4 year old can't.
post #97 of 204
I guess I also think of a tantrum as yelling and throwing oneself on the ground. That can be ignored pretty easily. Once a four year old is hitting someone or running away, it's more that just a tantrum, IMO.
post #98 of 204
Thread Starter 
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.
post #99 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
I don;t think that anyone has said that.

Actually, yes - several people said that her daughter could not (NOT would not) control herself. I know my 3 1/2 year old has times where she feels overwhelmed - but she know that hitting is never acceptable and that there are consequences.
post #100 of 204

a big hug

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.

I am so sorry that you feel that way

My intention was not that you did the wrong thing AT ALL, but that maybe I would try (with my dd) a consequence that happens immediately rather than later - but my dd is also 3 1/2 and not 4.

Sometime MDC turns into a feeding frenzy instead of a place to help each other - and that sucks: Even if I don't agree with someone, I try to give a specific suggestion instead of "No, you are wrong that's not what to do!"
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