Geez how did we get like this and how can it get better? - Page 4

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by wifeandmom

We walked down the aisle with $25K in credit card debt between the two of us. We didn't charge another thing for YEARS, but we still paid on that debt. We weren't 'racking up more CC debt on a weekly/daily basis', nor were we spending more than we made while we paid off our debt. Just because someone has CC debt does NOT mean they are *currently* living beyond their means, assuming they aren't still charging stuff.

Go back and re-consult the OP's posts. She very clearly indicated that they are indeed "still charging stuff."

If they are "still charging stuff," they are NOT "*currently* living within their means."

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by wifeandmom

If your criteria for not being in financial trouble is to have $12-24K in savings, I'd say 95% of America is in trouble. Maybe more, but I'd put money on 95% not having that kind of cash available at any given time.

.

Actually, there have been many, many articles on the failure of Americans to save a reasonable and prudent amount of their income either compared to other countries or compared to Americans in the past. A *percentage* of one's annual income rather than a dollar figure is a better gauge of whether or not someone is saving prudently. If Bill Gates only had 12K socked away, I'd think he was an idiot.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by wednesday

In post 38 the OP wrote that the family has charged over $12,000 just in the past 9 months on eating out and shopping. And that she knows "they need to stop" which indicates that, in fact, they are still spending on that level. Over a thousand dollars a month above and beyond their income, while NOT putting anything into savings or paying for health insurance.

Yes, and I don't know about other posters, but I do definitely consider health insurance a "necessity" -- if not for me, then at least for my children.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by velochic

Please say you're not serious. I'm new to this thread, but the OP can more than afford the necessities.

She's over twelve thousand dollars in debt.
They have no health insurance AT ALL.
They have no disability coverage AT ALL.
They have no savings.
They're one paycheck away from being in serious financial trouble.
They could not last three months if someone was injured or lost a job.

QED.

[zersha]

Originally Posted by LilMamiBella

Does anyone know of a good health insurance and/or dental and disability? I remember looking once and the ones I saw had really high deductibles ..plus pretty expensive!

If your dh is a small business owner, he should look into becoming his own 'group' and get insurance. Even if he doesn't have any employees, I've heard of other small businesses putting their wife on the payroll. I think often you only need 2 people to be a 'group'.

[savithny]

Okay, I'm not gonna be quite as brusque.

Keep Blockbuster - I assume it costs about the same as Netflix, which is what I've got? I also assume that it has all the TV-on-DVD stuff that I can get on Netflix?

If so, you can then ditch cable and satellite and TIVO. For a fraction of the cost of those, you can rent almost every TV show out there i fyou're willing to be a season behind everyone. We've been catching up with all the stuff our friends tell us we've "Missed" by not having any premium channels. The library is great - but ours does not stock TV-on-DVD, and frankly a lot of really great stories are being told on TV rather than in movies these days.

I know the temptation to "do something" as activities on the weekends that cost money. When we first moved here, we were making much less, and I did a lot of research and brainstorming about free/low cost activities we could do as a family to get out and save money. I picked up the free weekly newspaper (and read the paper at work after my coworker was done with it). I read all the "what's going on?" columns to find out about all kinds of local events that were free or cheap and sounded fun. We do Pancake Breakfasts at the firehouse rather than going to restaurants, we go to the classes given by the local Arboretum, we visit the state parks and walk the trails. We joined the Y with a family membership so that we can all use the facilities. It took some digging to find out where the sources of fun were, but there were plenty of them.

[boysrus]

Originally Posted by wednesday

In post 38 the OP wrote that the family has charged over $12,000 just in the past 9 months on eating out and shopping. And that she knows "they need to stop" which indicates that, in fact, they are still spending on that level. Over a thousand dollars a month above and beyond their income, while NOT putting anything into savings or paying for health insurance.

I didn't see that she had been charging those. When coupled with the lack of insurance and savings, I will finally agree that she is barely affording necessities (or actually not affording necessities).

[enkmom]

OP, I think what you need right now is a plan. Work on getting health insurance. Decide just how far you are willing to go on cutting the entertainment budget, and work out a plan with your husband to meet the goal. Plan your purchases, don't buy ANYTHING on a whim. If you aren't willing to go cold turkey, plan for one dinner out a week, and then really enjoy it. Plan for one special outing a month. Clearly defined goals are much easier to meet.

If I were you, I would make health insurance my first priority, and then I would commit to a plan to pay down/off the credit cards. Don't buy anything if you can't pay cash. You make a decent living, you just need to spend more wisely.

[Free Thinker]

OP, I am so glad you came here to ask for help and I truely hope that the posts encourage you and don't offend you. I hope I can help as well! We are small business owners and do pretty well IMO. When I look at your list I do see several places where you definately need to cut (most were already mentioned). Since you asked about health insurance Ill tell you what we have done. We have a family plan w/ a high ded. that's relatively affordable (say $100 per person per month average, so $400 right now, $600 when I have the babies). It's a basic plan and does not cover much. We have a bunch of $$ In savings for medical emergencies which we have had this year. Since you do not have much savings, I'd say get a plan w/ a lower deduct. but basic health stuff (no dental, maternity (if you don't plan on more kids), eyes, ect) so that you and your family are covered if something happens. Your DH also needs a disability plan incase he is disabled for any amount of time and unable to work. You also need to have life insurance (really cheap) to protect you and your DC if something were to happen. I say this b/c you are in debt, and if something does happen you have no way to pay your bills! Meg Murray is right when she says you are just one accident away from losing everything. Accidents do happen, too! We have had 2 hospitalizations (DH and DD, they are fine now) this year, and I got PG w/ twins (unintentionally), so our medical bills this year are outrageous, even w/ our insurance. Without the insurance it would be even more! Just a warning b/c we are a healthy young family and never thought it could hit us all at once like it has.

I think you need to look at the big picture of your finances, not just the monthly payments. This is IMO the biggest downfall for young Americans, you are just looking at things as a monthly expense instead of the overall cost. The Gym memberships at $60 per month per gym = $1440 per year. What else could you be doing w/ this extra $1440? Is the Gym membership truely worth this? What about all the different TV things? We have Netflix for our TV entertainment, no cable, no dish, no renting or going out for movies, just Netflix. It costs I think $16 per month, or $192 per year. I normally get the kids a DVD (educational), us a movie, and then a TV series. This to me sounds reasonable and it's affordable for our family. I don't know how much your TV packages are costing, but maybe you should pick a number and say "TV Is worth $500 per year" and figure out what you can get w/ that amount of money. The same needs to be done for your vehicle expenses (including insurance, tax, license, repairs and maint. and gas). I'd say the new truck needs to go back if at all possible! Look at how much you are paying in INTEREST!?! IMO interest money is just money you are paying to buy it now instead of saving up for it. You are infact just giving money way! Add up all the interest you have paid in the last 3 months on your house, cars a nd CCs. That is money that is just GONE and spent on NOTHING. You did not get ahead, you did not buy a physical item. Now look at how that money you paid in interest could have been saved for the future, made money in a MM acct., or college saving plan, IRA (you NEED to be doing IRAs for retirement!!!! See an accountant at tax time!!!). Look at the bigger picture, it's not about the payments youare out each month, how many payments you can afford, it's about the TOTAL cost of having everything you do, including the interest. If you go and buy a new SUV you spend $40,000. When you add on interest how much are you going to be out total by the time it's paid off? Vehicle interest adds big $$ and vehicles loose value so while you DO need to spend some money on transportation, and transportation is important, you need to figure out what part of your income you are comfortable putting toward driving.

For the kids classes and all, I do understand the need to get them out and into classes, but I"d just let each child pick ONE activity to be in. It will save on gas money, eating out (not as much running gives you more time to cook), and will give you more time to hang out as a family. If they offer the same classes at one of your gyms, then maybe I"d keep ONE gym membership instead of the classes, but in all honesty paying for 2 gym memberships plus other physical activities for your kids is just too much. ONE should be enough. If you prefer the larger gym that's farther way, keep it and GO to it. Just pick ONE.

I also don't think you need to forget all about having your family outings on the weekends, jsut budget them better. Pick one nice meal out, and a cheap activity, or a more expensive activity and a cheaper meal out (or bring a picnic). There are lots of things you can do that don't cost a whole lot!

I do think you are living beyond your means, but don't feel that bad. Most Americans are living beyond their means right now and that's one reason the economy is so shaky. You just need to figure out how you are going to get OUT of that situation and into a healthier one. You also need to learn to say NO when someone wants to spend money on things.

[wednesday]

The PP gave very encouraging words, I also wanted to say that while a lot of responses have been like "OMG! Your spending is crazy!" I actually think your situation is easier to correct than many other families. You CAN cut back on the entertainment expenses and eating out. Some families at your income level are in a much more difficult situation because they have a huge mortgage, two huge car payments, and more like $30K in credit card debt, maybe student loans too, etc. They absolutely can not cut back on any of those bills and they have trouble making all the minimums and still putting food on the table. Your family is NOT THERE at all...so really it's a good thing to be taking a hard look at things now.

[Natsuki]

1. You can watch all your favorite TV shows via the internet for FREE because the networks put the full episodes on their sites within a day or two of it airing. We have never had TV, but I am an avid fan of LOST and Dancing With The Stars b/c I watch it on the internet.

2. As a small business owner's family, you NEED to have a good chunk of money in savings in case business gets bad. My father is a small business owner, he has made millions and millions of dollars over the past two decades and wisely put enough into savings so that if times got bad he could afford to keep his business going and pay his employees, health insurance, etc... Guess what - this past year has been bad for business, and he has had the savings to keep his business afloat. I would say you need to prioritize paying off your debt, changing your spending habits, and putting enough money into savings to have 3-6 months worth of expenses. You make $5,000/month - that is a feasible goal to have over the next few years.

[SleeplessMommy]

We are not saying "dump the Cable TV forever" ... just "Dump the cable TV until CC debt is paid off".

By the way, if you Google "how to cancel a gym membership" you may find some low cost or free ideas on how to get out of them ... like "moving" to Alaska or overseas. The same thing for how to sell time share.

Craigslist can be used to sell your extra TVs if you want to part with them.

Look into your state's health insurance program for uninsured kids, and there are also health insurance brokers out there, who will help you find something.

With no cable TV, your DH will be very motivated to work hard and make more money, to get his shows back. :

[katheek77]

I'm not going to be as harsh as some PP, because I know that if you cut out EVERYTHING, some people get miserable and just give up completely.

YOU NEED A BUDGET. You can't control your spending. I don't care how much money you make, if you are worried about spending too much, and 900 dollars/month is "disappearing", you can't control it right now. Make a budget, and stick to it. Is it hard? Yes. Does it suck sometimes? Uh-huh. That's life...

You need a grocery budget. DON'T CHEAT.

If you don't plan well and blow all your grocery money the first three weeks on processed foods, soda, twinkies, and expensive frozen pizzas, well, yeah, it's a slim last week. But it does two things: One, keeps you on budget, and Two, teaches you how to plan a little better. Homemade pizza is far superior to boxed pizza, everyone should probably drink more water than they do (I buy X amount of soda/week. When it's gone, it's gone, whether that's day 6 or day 2), and look for deals. You can still eat steak; just buy it when it's on sale, and have something else until then. Most kids love to cook. Brownies from scratch are FUN and taste better than anything that comes out of a box or a store bakery.

Which ties into:

My DH and I love to eat out, but we don't do it Fri/Sat/Sunday. Cut back on that. We *usually* do it once a week, but that means either eating out OR ordering in. Occassionally, it might be more than once a week, but, I budget eating out, so, if we go someplace cheap-o for lunch, yeah, we might have enough extra to order in wings that Saturday or something...but, once it's gone, it's gone. If we decide to go someplace ritzy, well, there's our dining out for the month, but, it's not horrible.

You also need an entertainment budget. If you want to go to the movies, go, but don't buy snacks there. Or buy some snacks at the grocery store, and then rent a movie. Or go to the dollar theater/drive-in...they're usually a LOT cheaper. I'm thinking two adults and two children has to be at least 25 dollars for tickets alone (and I'm lowballing it), and then, if you each get a soda/candy, another 20 bucks. BUDGET. When the Entertainment money is gone, it's GONE. End of story. And that may mean saying to DH/DC/yourself, "I'm sorry, but we don't have money in the budget for that right now...we can do that in two weeks, but right now, we'll have to do something else like (make a pizza, invite some friends over, go to the Y's pool, etc.)"

Get rid of Tivo, Satellite, and whatever fancy Cable you have. If you can get reception with bunny ears, go for that. If not, get the bare minimum cable. Here it's 16 dollars a month, but I know the last place I had cable it was 7 dollars a month...you'll still get the major channels (NBC, PBS, CBS, etc). Keep your blockbuster online (or switch to online if you only have the regular membership) - much wider selection and you can exchange in store. That ought to cut about 100/month out between satellite, expanded cable, and tivo (maybe more...I don't know what those all cost), and really shouldn't impact your "viewing" habits that much.

I'd get rid of the gym memberships and karate, possibly, in exchange for the Y. The Ys where you are does Tae Kwon Do lessons, has swimming pools, etc. They do "adventure" guide events, which are father/children events...might be fun for your husband to do with the kids (I'm not sure how old they are, but, if they're taking Karate/dance lessons, probably old enough). From my experience with the Ys around here, they also sometimes do weekly "floating movie night" (in the pools), holiday events, etc.

I would try to rent out my timeshare's week for this year, or trade for one closer to home so the travel costs wouldn't be so large.

Dude, you need health insurance. Holy crap. Most people who go bankrupt go bankrupt because of a health emergency or loss of job (and sometimes the two are connected).

And you need to pay off your credit cards. Really. You should be throwing any extra money at those danged cards. And as soon as you pay THOSE off, throw the extra money into savings. With a self-employed husband, you need a backup in case. Once you have a substantial amount in there (6 months of expenses), then, yeah, you can look at loosening the proverbial belt a bit, but, until then...uh-uh.

ETA: I would also sit the kids down and explain to them (in age appropriate terms) what's going on. Maybe even let them make some choices...ie "We can go to the movies this weekend OR we can go out for lunch. It's one or the other, so which do you want to do?" or "We can go bowling OR you can invite a friend over and we can make brownies and rent a movie"...then they have some choice, but also know that, hey, right now, both are NOT an option....

[rachiem]

Here's what I'd get rid of, now or as soon as it is possible:

Dance class for two kids
Truck payment -- consider getting something cheaper if possible
Blockbuster online
Worldvision-we sponsor two kids --I'd consider this, too.
Karate
Credit cards- CUT THEM UP
Charter
Cingular
Dish Network
King's gym
Sportsclub- yes its a gym
Timeshare
Tivo

What to do without TV? Have conversations. Go to the library-- it is FREE and you already pay for it. Play outside. Draw. Do dishes. Clean the house. Read books.

[RoundAbout]

I haven't read all of the responses but I will add this:

There is a big difference between being able to pay for something and being able to afford it.

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by wifeandmom

We walked down the aisle with $25K in credit card debt between the two of us. We didn't charge another thing for YEARS, but we still paid on that debt. We weren't 'racking up more CC debt on a weekly/daily basis', nor were we spending more than we made while we paid off our debt. Just because someone has CC debt does NOT mean they are *currently* living beyond their means, assuming they aren't still charging stuff.

First things first, I'd figure out where the money is going. There's $900 unaccounted for somewhere. Once we had our debt paid off, we had A LOT of money that was 'unaccounted' for every month. Out of curiosity, I added up our eating out expenses one month. Imagine my horror when I got to the end of our bank statement and we'd spent $1200 at restaraunts. In ONE MONTH.

Now, we had a pretty decent budget at the time. We were out of debt, we were saving 10%, donating 10%, we had health care coverage through the military, we were paying for everything out of what DH was making. But we'd failed to update things to include very large sums of money he was making at a civilian contractor job he did. It wasn't ever a regular, set amount of money, so we didn't put it in our budget. Which meant we ATE a large portion of it.

He might make $10,000 extra in one month but only $1000 the next month. We'd usually do something specific with the bulk of it (paid off my truck over two months one summer, paid for a serious slush fund for me to have during each of his deployments over 3-4 months, etc). But the rest of it...we never really put on paper where it went.

Point is, it's always wise to know what is coming in and where it is going. Sometimes it is shocking when you realize what you are spending on certain things, and making changes is always easier when you're working with the full picture.

Well...The poster said they use their credit card weekly for eating out on fri, sat, and sunday and for bowling, etc. So she said herself they are still racking up the debt.

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by wifeandmom

If your criteria for not being in financial trouble is to have $12-24K in savings, I'd say 95% of America is in trouble. Maybe more, but I'd put money on 95% not having that kind of cash available at any given time.

Also, if you have credit card debt, unless it happens to be on one of those very low interest cards or something similar, it makes no sense whatsoever to have large sums of cash saved up while you're paying outrageous interest on credit card debt every month.

I'd say it would be wise for them to save a month's pay (give or take, but I don't agree with Dave Ramsey's $1000 is enough for emergencies til you're out of debt theory). Then put everything else extra towards their debt. Our personal minimum cash reserve was $2000 before we had kids and $5000 after we had kids, no matter how much consumer debt we still had.

As we got closer to paying off our debt and had more kids and his income kept going up, our personal comfort level minimum amount kept going up, whereas Dave always says $1000 is enough til you're out of debt. We've had months where we used $4000+ from our emergency fund, so there's no way we'd be comfortable with only $1000. I think your overall income and expenses should come into play when you're considering how much to have in cash reserves while still in debt.

I feel like you are missing my points completely.

Yes. $1000 is enough for a mini emergency fund while paying off debts. Most financial people (not just DR) say to have 3-6 months living expenses in your FULL emergency fund. For this particular family it would be 12-24K! Because that is what their current (listed) expenses add up to. I'm not just pulling some random number out of thin air.

No where did i say the typical american family needs this much or they are in financial trouble...in my case we only need $6k. It just depends on your expenses. Plain and simple.

But honestly...you are probably pretty close on the percentage of americans "in trouble" financially. Most people DON'T have a fully funded emergency fund...so they have to rely on debt for emergencies. that is, in my book, financial trouble.

[BetsyS]

double post

[BetsyS]

This won't be the most popular opinion out there, but one way to ease into cutting your entertainment budget (including cable, satellite, blockbuster, netflix, tivo, etc) is to cut down to basic cable nad keep Tivo. Our Tivo costs us $12 a month. The basic cable we could get for $18, making our total cost $30. That was okay with us, as it was a priority at the time.

We used our Tivo to tape an enormous amount of stuff. PBS, cooking shows, movies at 3 am, regular shows (we started watching some new ones), reruns of stuff we hadn't seen (we watched an entire season of the Waltons when I was pregnant on a month of bedrest and nursing a wee newborn; they came on 2 a day, and we just taped them all). I missed the food channel, so I'd tape stuff like Martha Stewart and fastforward to the food part or the Today show, same thing, or the Saturday Morning Early Show on CBS. Same thing. Then, if we wanted to watch TV, we always had something there, even if it was Sunday afternoon and only golf was on the real TV.

This worked for us, because it was a priority (and we cut in other areas to make it happen), and it was actually painless and easy.

[BetsyS]

triple post