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Grandparents Rights - Page 5

post #81 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?
I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I do not see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.
post #82 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Good point! Of course, I think love and respect also includes a willingness to protect our children from "toxic-to-the-core" people. I can't imagine how the undermining Grandma managed to do all this without Mama ever noticing. At the same time, I realize that the mother in question may have lacked other support and felt dependent on her own mom, and been so used to the toxicity she didn't realize what was happening 'til it was too late.
The situation was very complex, and probably impossible to explain on a message board. But, the mom definitely didn't realize what was going on until it was too late to change it. Some people are incredibly good at emotional manipulation.

[/quote]But this example you've shared actually strengthens my belief that parental rights should not be undermined by grandparents.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same way - that's why I posted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?
I wouldn't like it much, but what else could I do? Unless my child were actually harming my grandchildren in some way (in which case, I'd be looking at ways to address that), I don't believe that forcing my way into their lives wouldn't be in anybody's best interests, including those of my grandchildren. Since I hold that belief strongly, pushing my way in and involving the courts to make it happen, would be the ultimate in selfishness. That dosen't mean I'd just say "okay" - it wouldn't be okay - it would be heartbreaking. But, I wouldn't push it through the courts (I suspect I'd continue to do whatever I could to heal the breach with my kids, though).
post #83 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Why would any judge in his/her right mind grant custody to an absentee father who's even withheld child-support for gaps of time? If he's moving back into the area, it sounds like he might be able to get visitation (like every other weekend) which should be nice for the kids if they'd like a chance to know their dad better --

but I can't see how he'd get custody when the mother's been the parent for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, through all the years when he's been off across the country, doing his other stuff.
Ummmm there are some good reasons he might; I kind of hope they come up with a more creative solution. (Think, moved in with a drug dealer - pretty close.)
post #84 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?
Uh, there are many, many, many steps between "Okay and walk away" and "Take your children to court for visitation rights you have no legal right to"
post #85 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I do not see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
The situation was very complex, and probably impossible to explain on a message board. But, the mom definitely didn't realize what was going on until it was too late to change it. Some people are incredibly good at emotional manipulation.
But this example you've shared actually strengthens my belief that parental rights should not be undermined by grandparents.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same way - that's why I posted it.


I wouldn't like it much, but what else could I do? Unless my child were actually harming my grandchildren in some way (in which case, I'd be looking at ways to address that), I don't believe that forcing my way into their lives wouldn't be in anybody's best interests, including those of my grandchildren. Since I hold that belief strongly, pushing my way in and involving the courts to make it happen, would be the ultimate in selfishness. That dosen't mean I'd just say "okay" - it wouldn't be okay - it would be heartbreaking. But, I wouldn't push it through the courts (I suspect I'd continue to do whatever I could to heal the breach with my kids, though).[/QUOTE]

And if it was your CHILDREN'S Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now? My point is, parents are not always right (and neither are grandparents, for that matter), and if it were YOUR grandchildren, you wouldn't fight to see them no matter what? Of course you'd do everything possible, bend over backwards to see your grandchildren, but if it didn't work, you would be okay with just letting them go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeBeans View Post
Uh, there are many, many, many steps between "Okay and walk away" and "Take your children to court for visitation rights you have no legal right to"
Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.
post #86 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
And if it was your CHILDREN'S Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now? My point is, parents are not always right (and neither are grandparents, for that matter), and if it were YOUR grandchildren, you wouldn't fight to see them no matter what? Of course you'd do everything possible, bend over backwards to see your grandchildren, but if it didn't work, you would be okay with just letting them go?
Okay - I'm not sure exactly which scenario you're talking about here (when you say "children's wives or husbands"), but I'll address the two major categories I see.

1) My child has died or gotten a divorce, and his/her spouse decides to cut off contact between me and the grandchildren.

I don't see this as likely, unless there were pre-existing problems between me and my DIL/SIL. I am aware that it could happen, though. Okay with it? Not even a little bit. However, in the case of my child's death, I'm also not okay with dragging my grandchildren's sole surviving parent through the stress of court battle, just to defend my "right" to see his/her children. I see that as an action that would only add more stress to the children's lives. Even if I "won", it would be grudging access, and an adversarial situation couldn't help but be created by the court case.

OTOH, if my child has divorced, and has partial custody, then his/her spouse can't cut me off totally. If my child does not have any custody, then the issue of why he/she doesn't arises. In many circumstances, I can see where my DIL/SIL would be pissed at me and/or blame me for the breakup and resulting custody issues. Once again, I don't see how a court battle could possibly help the situation, or be in the best interests of my grandchildren.

2) My child and his/her spouse are still married, and have cut me off. In that case, it's not my DIL/SIL who have cut me off. My child would have to be an active participant in the decision. In that case, my relationship with my child is the core issue, not my relationship with my grandchildren.


Quote:
Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.
I absolutely will not subject my children/grandchildren to court proceedings and the unpredictable decisions of judges, based on my desire to see my grandchildren. I do NOT feel that involving the courts would be in my grandchildren's best interests, short of actual abuse/neglect...and if it's not in their best interests, I'm not going there.
post #87 of 103
Generally, I am against GPV laws. Whether the reasons are "rational" or not, the parents should get the ultimate say in who their children have contact with.
post #88 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
And if it was your CHILDREN'S Wives or Husbands that would not let you see your grandchildren you'd both have the same point of view as you do now?
I believe my children are preparing for marriage and parenthood at this very moment, while growing up in my home. Yes, I realize that even strong, confident young people will sometimes choose to marry controlling, abusive spouses.

My goal right now is to help my children build their own inner resources, to the point where hopefully they won't choose to mate with controlling, abusive people ... or where even if they make a wrong choice, they'll realize there's a way out of the situation, that not everyone lives this way, and they don't have to, either.

My time to fight such a situation is really now, while I still have contact with my children. If at some point they marry controlling people and cut me off, all I can do is pray that something in them will remind them they have a choice.

I agree with everything Storm Bride has to say about this subject. In a divorce, if my child has any parental rights at all, the ex-spouse can't completely cut me off: as long as my child wants her children to know me, I'll at least get to see them during her visitation time.

If my child dies and -- in spite of how gracious I've been as a mother-in-law -- my child's spouse decides to cut me out of their lives completely ... I'll be devastated and I'm sure I'll make periodic attempts to contact the spouse and see if I can get him to change his mind, but I don't see any positive outcome coming through a court case.

Quote:
Definately. I would hope any court proceedings would be the very last resort for anyone, but I can see an occasional case where, I could see why the judge would rule in favor of the Grandparents.
But it's not the judge's favor I'd care about. I'd care about my grandkids, and I'd know that behaving coercively toward their only living parent would only create resentment, distrust, and bad feelings all around. I also think the likelihood is very small that such extreme measures would ever be taken against me.

Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.

But even more important is for my children to do what makes them happy, even if it's on the other side of the world. While I agree that just getting to see my kids and grandkids once or twice a year is still better than losing all contact -- it's a far cry from my ideal of having my little tribe take over this block.

So, just as I encourage my children to build their own inner resources, I remember to nourish my own as well. These days, whenever I have to cut short something I'm interested in -- such as reading, writing, or browsing the internet -- I remind myself that these are things I can come back to when my kids are older.

And in the unlikely event that I'm cut off completely (or have little contact), I'll guess I'll have unlimited time to pursue the interests I can only enjoy in snatches right now. I'm not saying that's my first choice, but at least I HAVE choices. Even in a life laced with sadness, I know I can always find some things that make me happy.
post #89 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Okay - I'm not sure exactly which scenario you're talking about here (when you say "children's wives or husbands"), but I'll address the two major categories I see.

1) My child has died or gotten a divorce, and his/her spouse decides to cut off contact between me and the grandchildren.

I don't see this as likely, unless there were pre-existing problems between me and my DIL/SIL. I am aware that it could happen, though. Okay with it? Not even a little bit. However, in the case of my child's death, I'm also not okay with dragging my grandchildren's sole surviving parent through the stress of court battle, just to defend my "right" to see his/her children. I see that as an action that would only add more stress to the children's lives. Even if I "won", it would be grudging access, and an adversarial situation couldn't help but be created by the court case.

OTOH, if my child has divorced, and has partial custody, then his/her spouse can't cut me off totally. If my child does not have any custody, then the issue of why he/she doesn't arises. In many circumstances, I can see where my DIL/SIL would be pissed at me and/or blame me for the breakup and resulting custody issues. Once again, I don't see how a court battle could possibly help the situation, or be in the best interests of my grandchildren.

2) My child and his/her spouse are still married, and have cut me off. In that case, it's not my DIL/SIL who have cut me off. My child would have to be an active participant in the decision. In that case, my relationship with my child is the core issue, not my relationship with my grandchildren.



I absolutely will not subject my children/grandchildren to court proceedings and the unpredictable decisions of judges, based on my desire to see my grandchildren. I do NOT feel that involving the courts would be in my grandchildren's best interests, short of actual abuse/neglect...and if it's not in their best interests, I'm not going there.
Ultimately, I agree with this. But, at the same time, I do think there are many cases where I would have incredible sympathy for the grandparents. Not all adult children act in the best interests of their children, unfortunately, even when they're trying too. But, they'll get it right more often then the courts will, and the battle is not in anyone's best interests.
post #90 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I wouldn't just say, "Okay" -- I'd be sorely hurt and I'd express that.

But I'd feel confident that I've spent all these years filling them with the love they need to be good parents ... and ultimately I'd have to trust them and let them live their own lives. I'm not saying I'd feel confident that I was a "perfect parent" -- but I'd feel reasonably confident that I did my best.

I wouldn't just walk away: I'd be attempting to contact my children in respectful ways, and to communicate my desire to understand where they're coming from so we can build a relationship that works for everyone ...

But then, if they persisted in shutting me out, I'd eventually have to walk away (while leaving the door open and the light on) for my own sanity.

I do not see how taking my kids to court could bring about anything positive for anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I believe my children are preparing for marriage and parenthood at this very moment, while growing up in my home. Yes, I realize that even strong, confident young people will sometimes choose to marry controlling, abusive spouses.

My goal right now is to help my children build their own inner resources, to the point where hopefully they won't choose to mate with controlling, abusive people ... or where even if they make a wrong choice, they'll realize there's a way out of the situation, that not everyone lives this way, and they don't have to, either.

My time to fight such a situation is really now, while I still have contact with my children. If at some point they marry controlling people and cut me off, all I can do is pray that something in them will remind them they have a choice.

I agree with everything Storm Bride has to say about this subject. In a divorce, if my child has any parental rights at all, the ex-spouse can't completely cut me off: as long as my child wants her children to know me, I'll at least get to see them during her visitation time.

If my child dies and -- in spite of how gracious I've been as a mother-in-law -- my child's spouse decides to cut me out of their lives completely ... I'll be devastated and I'm sure I'll make periodic attempts to contact the spouse and see if I can get him to change his mind, but I don't see any positive outcome coming through a court case.



But it's not the judge's favor I'd care about. I'd care about my grandkids, and I'd know that behaving coercively toward their only living parent would only create resentment, distrust, and bad feelings all around. I also think the likelihood is very small that such extreme measures would ever be taken against me.

Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.

But even more important is for my children to do what makes them happy, even if it's on the other side of the world. While I agree that just getting to see my kids and grandkids once or twice a year is still better than losing all contact -- it's a far cry from my ideal of having my little tribe take over this block.

So, just as I encourage my children to build their own inner resources, I remember to nourish my own as well. These days, whenever I have to cut short something I'm interested in -- such as reading, writing, or browsing the internet -- I remind myself that these are things I can come back to when my kids are older.

And in the unlikely event that I'm cut off completely (or have little contact), I'll guess I'll have unlimited time to pursue the interests I can only enjoy in snatches right now. I'm not saying that's my first choice, but at least I HAVE choices. Even in a life laced with sadness, I know I can always find some things that make me happy.

Super posts, I completely agree....

I am ever so thankful I live in Florida!

Not that my parents are nuts or anything, but my mom is sort of the entitled type who believes she has a "right" to a relationship with my daughter and it annoys me. I don't believe she would ever sue for anything, but the personality of someone who would be the type to sue is my mom

I don't worry a thing about the in-laws, if something were to happen to my husband or we were to get divorced (God forbid to both!), I would totally keep them in my daughter's life and my life -- I love his mom (mil) and we have in some ways a closer relationship than me and my mom do (don't tell my mom ) -- they live a lot further away though... I also like his sisters a lot and well, fil is okay too...

Even so, I ultimately believe it is the parents' decision who their children spend time with -- and moreso if the children are old enough, the children's decision should be considered a lot. So what if you have your mil, if your child loves her, your child should be afforded the opportunity to spend time with her --- however, I don't at all believe anything good comes from grandparents suing... nothing says love like litigation :
post #91 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Much MORE likely is the possibility that my children might relocate, and dh and I might have to settle for way less contact than we'd prefer. My ideal is for my children and their spouses to buy houses on our block (or at least settle in the same metro area), so I can be the Grandma who's always around and available to babysit, or make some cookies or hot cocoa whenever little Suzy feels like dropping by.
:
I feel terrible for my in-laws. They're in Knoxville, and we're here in Vancouver with their only grandchildren. I know it breaks my MIL's heart when she doesn't get to see us...and when she does, because she adores our kids, and it's SO difficult to forge a close connection at such a distance. They call every weekend - she sends cards and e-cards for every birthday, Easter, Halloween, Valentine's Day, etc...everything she can. It's just not the same as being here, though.

My mom, otoh, has 11 grandchildren, with number 12 under construction...and we all live within a 10 minute drive of mom's house. She feels very fortunate.
post #92 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubris View Post
My own two cents is that some grandparents confuse rights with privileges. It is a privilege for both the child and the grandparent to have a functional relationship with each other. I don't believe that grandparents should have the right to force a relationship.
ITA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sewingmommy View Post
My mother who is bipolar always told me how she should have rights to her grandkids and they should have to visit her for extended periods of time because it was good for them to bond with her ....and I so disagreed with this ...because of her bipolar my dh and I decided after we were married to severe all ties because I just could not and would not put my kids through the emotional hell that I went through as a child and I was a little worried about her suing for Grandparents rights but so far she has shown no interest in either of my two sons .....
No offense but I sincerely hope that you didn't sever all ties just because she's bipolar. Hopefully there is more to the story than what you've told us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoLawyer View Post
This disappeared, so trying again, and I apologizes if it shows up twice...


I agree with grandparents having the legal ability to gain visitation access to their grandchildren under two very narrow circumstances:
1. The grandparents have had a very good relationship with their grandchildren. Then, their child dies, and the surviving parent (the grandparents' S- or DIL) decides to cut off all access to the grandparents (out of grief, spite, remarriage, whatever).
2. The grandparents have been raising their grandchildren as de facto parents. Perhaps their child has died or disappeared. The other parent has done similarly. Then, one day, years later, the absent, surviving parent shows up, claims custody, and decides that the grandparents should no longer be allowed to see their children who they have raised for years.

In both of these scenarios, it would be traumatic to the children to lose their grandparents. In Scenario 1, the children have lost their mother or father; it would be even worse to lose an entire side of the family. Some states, when considering stepparent adoption, still have provisions for biological grandparents to visit their grandchildren. In Scenario 2, the grandchildren lose their de facto parents. (My best childhood friend lived with her maternal grandparents from the time she was 2, after her mom died. Her father left while her mom was pregnant and was never in the picture. Can you imagine the trauma if her dad had resurfaced when she was, say, 12, got custody, and forbid her from even contacting the only parents she ever really knew? In that case, I think rights should be extended to all de facto parents, whether they're grandparents, stepparents, aunts, neighbors, etc.)

This does presume that the grandparents are decent people (which we know is true in not all cases), and that the courts will be fair (ditto).

Note that I do not support grandparents pursuing visitation (or custody, for that matter) if their children are alive, competent, and in the picture. Then, it's up to the adult children. I don't think grandparents should be able to get separate visitation when their grandchildren's parents get divorced...if non-custodial Mom or Dad wants her or his parents to see the grandkids, s/he can invite them over during his/her time (or arrange a trip with consent of the ex or otherwise per the custody agreement).
Well put!

Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon View Post
Can anyone here honestly say that, if your children grew up and if, for whatever reason, they decided that they did not want your grandchildren in your life, you'd just say, okay, and walk away?
I wouldn't say "okay" and just walk away. I'd be hurt but it's my children's choice at that point.

I'm going to be cutting all ties with my mother VERY soon if she continues on the path she's on. She is a toxic person. She used to beat me from the age of about 12 until I moved out at 19. It stopped briefly after I started fighting back but then she got brave and started hitting me again. She is a freaking tramp and has been cheating on my father for quite some time now and will get into a screaming match with me when I tell her that if she leaves my father for this scum (which she fully intends on doing) HE is not welcome in my home. She however twists everything I say around and is telling my family that I said she can't be happy and that I'm going to take her grandchildren away from her if she leaves my father at all- no matter what the reason is and that I said she had to stay with him regardless of what she wanted if she wanted to see my kids when I NEVER said that. She is bipolar but SEVERELY and she has some severe behavioral issues. She has physically abused my father (he couldn't do anything about it because cops actually told him that it's impossible for a wife to abuse her spouse : ) myself, and my brother. She knows never to touch my children in a harmful manner because of what would clearly be a UA violation. She neglected me as a baby, my dad said he'd come home from work and my mom was SOUND asleep while I was crying in my crib. She fights with everyone, seriously, all you have to do is look at her and she'll start screaming. She had my father arrested in 1999 FOR NO REASON. SHE LIED to have him arrested and then started spreading rumors throughout the family that she was afraid that he was going to sexually abuse me : Yeah right. My father is HARMLESS. My dad had to send me to live with my Aunt because my mom would NOT stop hitting me. He was trying to find a place to live so he could leave her but he needed me in a safe place during that. It got to the point where my Aunt would not let me accept phone calls from my mother because all my mother was doing was SCREAMING at me for ruining her life. She kept telling me how *I* was the reason her husband was leaving her. He ended up taking her back because she *APPEARED* to have gotten better. She got worse again after about 6 months. The school also ended up not letting me take phone calls from her because she was calling me and SCREAMING so loudly that the office staff could hear her and I would be standing there in tears.

My mom is a toxic person and will outright lie to make the person she is angry with look like a horrible monstrous person. Her and my father are getting ready to be divorced and she felt the need to tell my oldest son (WHO IS ONLY 5) that she's leaving his "Poppa"(my dad says he's too young to be grandpa lol). She had no right to bring my son into this and she knows that. She did it to make him hate his Poppa (she eluded that poppa was mean to her).

If she keeps doing it, I'm either changing my phone #, pressing charges for harassment (she calls multiple times after being hung up on. Seriously within a 2 min span last night her number showed up like 4x on my caller ID), or getting a restraining order- possibly all 3.

Should this woman have any rights to her grandchildren? NO. She's abusive, vindictive, manipulative, cruel, cold hearted, the list goes on. Should I be forced to let her see my kids? I THINK EMPHATICALLY NOT! I am the parent and it is my responsibility to do what's in the best interest of my children. If I continued to let such a person in my children's lives, I would be failing miserably as a parent. FWIW, she would NEVER directly harm my children. The reason why I feel she should not see them (if she continues this) is because my children should not have to watch her treat people like this and see her hurt other people. If my mom were to some day get the psychiatric help that she really needs, there is no reason why I wouldn't let her see the kids. Right now though, she bounces back and forth. One day she's SUPER SUPER SWEET and I love her to death and the very next day (sometimes even later that night) she's screaming at me and the toxic woman comes out. We need for her to be the loving, super sweet woman all the time.

FTR, if my mom tried to sue me, she has child abuse charges against her and she'd get nowhere. The judge would not side with her.

Now, my IL's. MIL is fine. I would never deny her the chance to see the kids.

FIL and StepMIL are rude to all of us. For 5 years they have treated me like I wasn't good enough for DP. When watching older DS, they refuse to do things by our rules. They constantly undermine EVERY SINGLE THING we do. We cloth diaper- they hate it. They tell us how they don't approve. I'm still BFing younger DS and they have made it quite clear that they don't approve of extended BFing regardless of the fact that DS has little to no interest in food and he has food allergies. We homeschool and they berated us about that and let us know how stupid our reasoning was IN FRONT OF our homeschooled child. The rarely come to visit and they live about 20 minutes away. It's disgusting. They missed younger DS's birthday party and showed up nearly 2 weeks later...I want to cut ties with them but DP won't let me bc he claims that they just don't know any better. If DP died, I'd cut ties with them because of the way they treat me and my older son. If we moved out of state, I KNOW they wouldn't come and visit us and while I wouldn't necessarily cut ties, I wouldn't drive out here to see them. The way it is now, I don't go to their house unless it's a special occasion. DP is free to take Adam up there but Adam strongly dislikes them and won't go unless he's forced to. DP can't take the baby bc he still very much needs to BF'd SO DP has to go alone. I didn't cut ties but I won't go to their home bc it's like they feel they have free run. When they're here, if they're rude, I can make them leave. I'll be damned if someone is going to talk down to me in my own home. When younger DS cuts out some of his nursing sessions, he's free to go with his daddy to visit them but for right now, since he NEEDS to be with me and I won't go, he can't go.

Grandparents have PRIVILEGES and those privileges can be revoked and SHOULD BE revoked if they can not act in an acceptable manner.

In the cases where the parents are just being mean and refusing the gparents visitation, well I don't think the court should be able to mandate anything but I feel sad because I don't think the parents should be being so mean.
post #93 of 103
It is senseless to use one's own personal expereince as the sole deciding factor for laws that are meant to shape the lives of millions.

Extreme cases make bad law, and many of the stories here are hearbreakingly exteme.

But for every toxic grandparent story there is a toxic parent story where the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of an extended family.

I certainly think there should be a tough standard for grandparents to have rights. Ever consideration should be taken to maintain parental control.

Nonetheless, I can't support removing all chances of a legal right for grandparents. There is just no way to have that kind of absolute law provides the flexibility that is needed to come up with the best solutions for the most people.
post #94 of 103
Ack, babies erasing posts

For once, I like living in Fla. I like knowing that I can control who my children see. I have judiciously mentioned to each of our families the circumstances under which they would lose the right to see my children. For DH's family, it was over accepting my DS as one of their clan (which they now do beautifully). For my mom, it was her obsession w/ weight (particularly mine)...It wasn't purposefully mean, but it was IMO not good for my children to hear - She now gets it and life is grand, she's so close to my DS. As for my dad,well, he knows he's walking on thin ice b/c of his wife. He'll be allowed to see them if he steps up and chooses to do so alone, but hs wife will have extremely limited, supervised contact w/ my children. If I were to die, she has threatened to try and take my son from my DH (his biodad has legally abandoned). Is she concerned for my DS and DD's relationship as sibs? ONly insomuch as she could then try and take DD from DH. She has in the past attempted to teach my child to tell me he wants to be her child and not mine- She would sue if we lived in a different state b/c she wants kids (shes 29, and has none) and dad is fixed perm (and too old to adopt)....I know b/c shes said as much. I find the way she treats my dad deplorable and bordering on abusive, but the courts won't see that. Could I prove her horribly toxic? Not without dying in a mountain of debt. Is it still my call as their parent to decide? Yes it sure is. The court having the right to mandate GPV is like the court having the right to mandate any number of other parenting choices we make, and frankly, I go with parents rights on this. I don't want the court to tell me I must do compulsory ed or vax, or wean, or anything else.
post #95 of 103
People who were raised by AP parents might be less likely to seek out information about AP because they lived it growing up and don't need as much help. Those of us from troubled families are more likely to need information and resources, so we're more likely to seek out a community like this. That's probably why there are more people from troubled families of origin here. I doubt most people who AP in general were raised in troubled families.

My husband is very close to his family and I adore them. He was raised pretty AP and doesn't need to read books or anything because it all comes very naturally to him. I need to read.
post #96 of 103
I will say that my daughter's grandparents on both sides are pretty wonderful, but for some *issues* here and there. I don't believe they are *toxic* or *murderous* or anything of the sort --- HOWEVEVER... even if they were the friggin' Waltons of the Brady's (think Brady Bunch) it is still not ANYONE ELSE'S RIGHT BUT MINE (and dh) AND MY CHILD'S to determine who my child spends time with.

Being a grandparent, or ANYONE in my child's life, is a privledge, not a right. I believe even being my own child's mother is a gift I have been given from God and I don't take that lightly either. However, as someone who takes that gift very seriously, it is up TO ME (and dh, and dd when she is older) to determine who in her life is either adding to her security, love, happiness -- or who is taking away from it or compromising it....

Besides, as mammal_mama (and others) have brought up -- how in the world does anyone think taking someone's parents to court is going to create warm and fuzzy *wanna spend time with you* feelings in a child?

If someone took my parents to court with the intention of gaining visits BY FORCE, I would have been SO resentful... and my parents made a lot of mistakes in raising me... but it still would have left a sour taste in my mouth.

Again, happy to be living in Florida. I like my parental rights thanks.
post #97 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
I guess because we as parents have the wild, unreasonable, crazy, insane belief that we should be the ones who ultimately determine who our children spend our time with and unfortunately, sometimes choose to deprive grandparents of their God given right to beat or molest or otherwise damage our children : How dare we take that away from them? :
That is exactly how my Father feels!
post #98 of 103
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Dallaschildren
post #99 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
People who were raised by AP parents might be less likely to seek out information about AP because they lived it growing up and don't need as much help. Those of us from troubled families are more likely to need information and resources, so we're more likely to seek out a community like this. That's probably why there are more people from troubled families of origin here. I doubt most people who AP in general were raised in troubled families.

My husband is very close to his family and I adore them. He was raised pretty AP and doesn't need to read books or anything because it all comes very naturally to him. I need to read.
My post doesn't make much sense in this thread anymore.
post #100 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by offwing View Post
Extreme cases make bad law, and many of the stories here are hearbreakingly exteme.

But for every toxic grandparent story there is a toxic parent story where the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of an extended family.
First you say "Extreme cases make bad law" -- then you talk about extreme cases where parents are toxic and "the only sanity in a kid's life comes from the influence of extended family." Why should there be a law based on such extremes?

Quote:
I certainly think there should be a tough standard for grandparents to have rights. Ever consideration should be taken to maintain parental control.
I think the "tough standard" should be that there are no pro-grandparents rights laws in effect. In the rare cases where parents are toxic -- that's child-abuse and should be treated as such.

And for anyone who argues that the parents may be "toxic" without doing anything that could be recognized as abuse -- I'm sorry, that's simply not toxic enough to justify interfering with parental rights.

Quote:
Nonetheless, I can't support removing all chances of a legal right for grandparents. There is just no way to have that kind of absolute law provides the flexibility that is needed to come up with the best solutions for the most people.
I don't think there should be a specific law. If grandparents are raising their grandkids, they need to get guardianship so the parents can't flit back in and jerk the kids around. As you've said, such extreme cases don't justify passing a law that can interfere with other families.
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