I need help convincing DH...he wants to circ :(

[Longhorn]

My DH is one of 3 boys. They are all circed except for his oldest brother, who for some reason wasnt able to be at birth for a medical reason. I was a nanny for a little boy in college, and I am ashamed to admit that I was shocked that he wasnt circed. So DH has made many comments about how that is gross to leave the skin there, etc. Mind you, he is only recently appreciating my hippie tendencies and has come A VERY LONG WAY! So I am hoping that by mentioning me not wanting to circ our child now, it will make the decision easier if we do have a son. What are some things I can tell him about the negative effects other than the obvious, we are CUTTING our child?

[kxsiven]

First - read this. This is only to your eyes;

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Then. Look these videos;

Function of foreskin - 101 class what foreskin is;

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...o/prepuce.html

Circumcision in hospital - this is what happens. When you are ready to confront this issue with your hubby, show him this;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...umcision&hl=en


And last - something to think about. Penn&Teller circumcision episode - goves you good 'weapons' with your fight;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...91532653693892

[Longhorn]

Thank you SO much! This is all such helpful information!!!

[nd_deadhead]

Longhorn, put the ball in your DH's court. Baby boys automatically come with a foreskin - it is not an option you get to pick (like what kind of stereo to order in a new car). Foreskin is standard equipment. It is up to him to come up with a REALLY good reason for performing an operation on a normal, healthy baby. Whatever he comes up with, if you need help countering it, you come right back to us!

I look at it this way - you spend 9 months hoping and praying that your baby is going to be healthy. You worry about what would happen if he was sick, or had a birth defect, or - heaven forbid - needed an operation right away.

If you are lucky enough to be blessed with a normal, healthy, perfect baby, doesn't it seem bizarre to sign him up right away for surgery he doesn't even need?

[mommymarliah]

I tried convincing my DH and eventually he came to his senses. But I plain out told him our son would not be circed. I had to sign the papers and I would not. So he would have to get over it.

There came a point after the kids were born where he wanted to know more and at that time he was on board with not circing. But to this day he doesn't tell anyone they shouldn't or anything like that (and he refuses to drive my car which has intactivist stickers on it). He is glad our sons arent but thats the extent of it he wants nothing more to do with intactivism.

So sometimes we as moms just have to take a stand and do what we know is right.

oh and another good article to add to your list

http://timmytm.livejournal.com/33872...thread=2081616

[Longhorn]

Boy am I glad I found this forum! You guys are great! I think that many of our beliefs, we share because I am great at getting my point across. I know that the circ thing took him by surprise and that is probably who he got so defensive, but I plan on sticking to my guns on this one. The only reason he can give as to why to do it is because 'it looks gross.' Are you kidding me? You'd rather cut your sons skin off to save him teasing in the locker room and risk botching his penis and potentially ruin his sex life?! It just seems like such an obvious choice for me....

[LavenderMae]

I think even those who think intact is gross wouldn't think an intact baby looked gross. They don't come out with full grown parts.

I bet he'll come around, it might take him a bit to digest all the info though.


www.cirp.org has lots of info. You can use the search feature there to find just about anything you want about circ.

[Ron_Low]

YOU have a prepuce; your cut husband does not.

Don't you love the way it protects your most sensitive parts, the wonderful way it feels when it is rubbed? Can you try and make him understand that it is a perfectly homologous structure to what he wants to amputate from your son?

-Ron

[Bm31]

I really don't get the "looks gross" part. I admittedly haven't spent a lot of time judging the aesthetics of penises, but I don't understand where they get "gross" from??!!! They're just different from the cut ones, that's all. Is it something about the obsession with seeing the glans of the penis or what??!! The only thing I've noticed from the whole "looks" angle is how there is much more similarity among the intact ones. If anything, the intact ones tend to look more whole, streamlined and comfortable. It's with the cut ones you'll see a real mish-mash of oddities with the scarred, stripped, weathered, haired-over, truncated organs. They vary much more greatly in appearance, but I guess that's what is accepted as "normal." :

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

It looks a bit different but when grown there are many woman who have no idea they even have slept with a intact man so it isnt usually a in your face difference.

Here is a list of reasons not to circ:

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

-Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - all of which have been scientifically disprovable. Including but not limited to it being a cure for baldness, mental illness, cancer etc. Etc.

The History of Circumcision
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...tpage&Itemid=1

Warning disturbing pictures "The medicalization of circumcision"
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

A Short History of Circumcision in the U.S.A (this one is really scary when you read it)
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

The Ritual of Circumcision
http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm

-Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to someone who is color blind they can see just fine but the full "color" is missing.

-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%. Circumcision for phimosis should only be done as a last resort. After trying stretching, steroid cream and a dorsel slit.

-No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
Here is a list of statements from several countries including the USA and Canada.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.

FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/


UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI

The incidence of Geniturinary abnormalities in circumcised and uncircumcised presenting with an initial urinary tract infection by 6 months of age
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we don't cut off parts of their genitals to prevent them.
Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.

Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:

• Infections;
• Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
• To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
• Hair on the shaft;
• Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
• Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
• Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
• Skin bridges
• Adhesions
• Scaring on the penis shaft
• Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/
• DEATH

and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys? FGM type one, the most common form of female circumcision, only removes the covering of the clitoris and some of the labia. Those parts directly corrilate to the foreskin on a male penis.

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php
Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

[quarteralien]

Personally, I think a raw bloody stump on a newborn that gets covered with that newborn's urine and feces is gross. This is a surgical wound we're talking about.

[nd_deadhead]

"Looks gross"?

So I'm picturing this scene: you have just delivered your firstborn, a normal, healthy son. You and DH are delighting over the miracle you have made together.

Mom: Look at his delicate little hands! How can he have such tiny fingernails!
Dad: And those toes! Aren't they the cutest little toes you ever saw?
Mom: It looks like he has your ears, Honey.
Dad: But he has your hair! Except the way it sticks up all over.
Mom: That's more like you, first thing in the morning!
Dad: He's all red an wrinkly! Isn't he adorable?
Mom: The umbilical stump is kind of ooky-looking.
Dad: Yeah, but that will fall off eventually.
Mom: There's no doubt that he's a boy!
Dad: GROSS! Cover that thing up! We have to get THAT taken care of right away!

Sorry, I just don't get it.

[faeriebeauty22]

Originally Posted by mommymarliah

I tried convincing my DH and eventually he came to his senses. But I plain out told him our son would not be circed. I had to sign the papers and I would not. So he would have to get over it.

There came a point after the kids were born where he wanted to know more and at that time he was on board with not circing. But to this day he doesn't tell anyone they shouldn't or anything like that (and he refuses to drive my car which has intactivist stickers on it). He is glad our sons arent but thats the extent of it he wants nothing more to do with intactivism.

So sometimes we as moms just have to take a stand and do what we know is right.

oh and another good article to add to your list

http://timmytm.livejournal.com/33872...thread=2081616

yeah... i told my DH the same thing. he still gets upset because he thinks that i'm ignoring his argument and that what he feels doesn't matter... that many of his friends who hadn't been circ'ed wish they were because they have problems with smells and infections, and if they got circ'ed later in life, the pain haunts them and they say they wish their parents would have done it when they were a baby so they wouldn't remember it (which i believe, some of his friends have told me the exact same thing). i tried to explain that i DO understand his point of view and i AM listening, but it doesn't excuse taking away a person's choice to cosmetically alter their body. i wouldn't give my newborn a tatoo just because she won't remember the pain when she's twenty; the same goes for my (future) little boys. i also told him that his friend's penises probably weren't cared for properly (i.e. forced retraction) and they probably had scar tissue built up that caused those problems. i know he'll come around by the time we have a little boy, because i don't want him to feel like i stepped all over him when all i'm trying to do is protect what's in our child's best interest, yk? i'm sending you good, empathetic vibes

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by faeriebeauty22

that many of his friends who hadn't been circ'ed wish they were because they have problems with smells and infections, and if they got circ'ed later in life, the pain haunts them and they say they wish their parents would have done it when they were a baby so they wouldn't remember it (which i believe, some of his friends have told me the exact same thing).

:

Do these men have hands? Access to water?

You only hear these kind of arguments in North America. I mean...these can brush their teeth? Wash their face? Both those things take more time than cleaning an intact penis.

[milansmommy]

I think watching some videos of circumcisions will probably convince him. Dh and I only casually mentioned it once while I was newly pregnant, he was all for it since that's all he knew and I was against it. One night early in my pregancy (before I even had time think about how I was going to convince dh) while we were looking for something to watch on tv we came across Penn &Teller's HBO show and it was all about circumcision. It had some graphic scenes of how they are performed and after it was over dh looked at me and said "there is no way in hell we are doing that to our child". I never had to even put up a fight! I hope you can convince your dh. Good luck!

[mommymarliah]

thanks for the list of reasons not to.....I gave one last ditch effort and sent that to my sister who is insistant on circing. I must say this in particular makes me feel sick...

"- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma. "

so true, so vile, so barbaric. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.