are "those looks" worth any weight?

[cuddleluvinma]

OK... ds is 2 almost 2 1/2. I run a daycare out of my home. DS has been having a hard time with this anger lately. Not just with the daycare kids , but with all that are close to him. He has been yelling and sometimes hits. When he does this I say what I am seeing "Oh, you're so angry right now" or "You seem really upset. Do you need a hug" or "you seem to need to yell right now. Do you want to do it outside. We can go out so you can yell all you want." and many more but I think you know the road I'm going down. When he hits I get down there and explain what I see or feel...your friend looks afraid (sad, really hurt, confused{depending on the situation}). I ask DS what he thinks would make him/her feel better. Or sometimes (depending on the severity of the hurt) I give the hug and talk the same talk. Or say that I think that s/he would feel better if you gave him/her a hug. I don't force it though. *I used to but realized that it's not teaching sincerity* Or "that hurt me. Or "I don't like to be hit. I also talk with him about what he could have done differently (saying "I'm really angry right now. I need to walk away" or if you really feel the need to hit then you can hit the pillow or smack your hands together" or "we can get some playdough (or texture table) and you can play with that to calm down" and so on.
So, when others see this (and this includes DH) I get a very heavy feeling that this is not approved of. It feels like people (not all) think that I should make him listen or that I should talk sternly with him or punish him. I am not going to do that. But, I do know that others think that I should. It feels as though people think that I am letting him "get away with it". Like I'm not doing anything about it. I am BUT I don't think that some people see my approach as a lesson. I think they see it as just being a push over and passive. I disagree. I feel that it is teaching him as much (if not more than OT or talking sternly or whatever is down that path when I sit down an think about it. But, when I get those looks and sometimes even when people aren't there (such as when its the 6th time we're going over it in the same morning) I doubt myself. I also let DD deal with it herself. It seems that people think that I should jump in if he hits her. She's 12 and I feel that she is fully capable of handling it herself. She sees what I do and does the same. I feel that if jump in it would be saying that what she says has no validity. YK?

Please give me input..
Should I explain what I'm doing to onlookers?

What about if they comment?

What about if they try to tell DS that he needs to give "suzie" a hug for hitting her?

I know that we need to do things over and over again before we see it work. But sometimes the 1,000th time we go over the same thing(or it seems like he gets it and then a week later goes back to hitting again) it feels like I need to try something different.

What flaws do you see in what I'm doing? Am I just completely off my rocker? Input would be helpful. I'm almost fully sure that what I'm doing is the right way to go but I am having a hard time getting rid of the feeling that what I'm doing isn't the best way.

I don't know....I think that I am just starting to confuse myself *very tired at the moment* I hope this all makes sense.

[cuddleluvinma]

I just submitted this thread and found that someone posted pretty much the same as I did.

[mommy2abigail]

First off, I think what you are doing is great. It takes time to get over those 'looks' but yeah, ignore them. I generally do not explain to others what I am doing, except to my dh and my mom (she lives with us so has a big art in dd's life). Strangers? Nah. Maybe a close friend who asks about it, but otherwise I keep my mouth shut. A hard thing for me to do. It doesn't stop me from offering a suggestion when I see a parent 'forcing' an apology or yelling at their kid for hitting though. I'm working on minding my own business... I do think if your dh has concerns, you should talk to him about it. I'm constantly talking to dh about what I do and why. Sometimes he disagrees, but over all he is totally impressed with how dd is as a little human. How sweet and loving she is, how we have a ton of mutual respect, and how willing she is to work with me when I am willing to work with her. I think when I told him about GD, and CL, and UP, he thought we'd have this out of control, spoiled brat of a kid. We absolutely dont. She's a sweet average 2.5 year old. Sure she gets frustrated and what not, but so do thos kids who are spanked, yelled at, ect. I think our conflicts are few and far between, but that may have more to do with her personality than anything, who knows. HTH

[Adele_Mommy]

I think you should just ignore other people's looks. What other people think about your parenting is irrelevant. You need to do what works for you. However, whatever you do does need to work for you, and it does not sound to me like this is. Yes, a 2 1/2 year old does need things repeated many many times. But it is not fair to your child's victims, particularly the children you provide care for, to suffer while your child learns the lesson. You say "such as when its the 6th time we're going over it in the same morning". Does that mean one or more kids got hit 6 times one morning? If so, I find that unacceptable. I would still do the hugging and gentle talk stuff, but I would also remove the child from the situation. For a short period of time for the first offense of the day and for the rest of the day for the second offense. I'm not saying a time out or anything. Just demonstrating that you cannot play with others if you hurt them. I would give my child something to do on his own in a different part of the room and gently enforce a physical separation from the other children: "I'm sorry. I know you want to play with "Susie" but you seem to be having trouble not hurting people right now so you need to play with "things" that don't have feelings until you can control yourself. I love you and I want to help, but I can't let you hurt Susie."

I definitely wouldn't make my child hug anyone ever.

As long as your dd is not getting excessively frustrated I agree with leaving her to handle it on her own. You can check in with her later when the two of you are alone to see how she is feeling about things. Maybe she even has some helpful suggestions!

Good luck!

[cuddleluvinma]

Adele
I see this the same as time out. It's isolation. He wouldn't stay there on his own will. I would have to physically hold him back. if I where on the receiving end of it I would feel that I wasn't loved no matter what someones words said. I really don't want to be going down that road. Not to mention... keeping him like that for the rest of the day would be more damaging than would a regular time out. At least that would only last for 2 minutes (if I went along with most of the people who do time out. I don't do that for may daycare kids who have hit him and I don't want to do that to my son.

I agree that it's not fair for the victims. I just don't know what else to do other than things I choose not to do to my child.

Now is the time that I start to feel hopeless.

[The4OfUs]

Really, I have to agree with Adele that if my kiddo is repeatedly hitting other kids, we're going to leave the situation, because it's not fair to the other kids. I really like her idea about having him lay with "things" instead of "people" for a while until he can calm down. I usually give a chance or two, but then if my child is showing that they're out of sorts enough to be hitting other kids repeatedly, then they're clearly not up to being with other kids at that point in time. It doesn't mean he has to sit by himself for a minute per age, it just means we need to find something else to do together so he's not harming other people.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of traditional time outs at all, but I have to think if your kiddo is having a day where they're not able to control themselves from hitting (which is totally normal sometimes, I know that), that getting them out of that situation for a while is not only good for the other kids, but for him too - that can't feel good to him either.

[cuddleluvinma]

I've been taking him out of the area and sitting with him until he calms down and then talking about other options that he could have taken before returning him to the rest of the crowd.
But at age two, I don't see how to (or that I should) separate him from others. I also don't see why it's any different than a time out (if I leave him there by himself). "you've done something wrong. So we don't want you around anymore" is what it would feel like to me. And, I cannot stay with only him for the rest of the day. I need to be with all of the kids. So, i sit with him till he has calmed and we talk and get back to life. Sometimes it doesn't happen again in that day and then there are those OTHER days. It just doesn't set easy with my heart to isolate him from the others and myself. I never did that with any of my daycare kids who hit him.
They all grew out of the hitting stage.

I just wish I would get some advice that sits well with my gut.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by cuddleluvinma

I also don't see why it's any different than a time out (if I leave him there by himself). "you've done something wrong. So we don't want you around anymore" is what it would feel like to me.

I guess when it comes to physically injuring others, I see it more like, "It's my job to keep everyone safe. If you aren't able to control your impulses (which is totally OK at his age), then you need to do something else for a while." I wouldn't leave him alone either, I don't leave my kiddos alone when I need to short circuit a cycle like this, but I do get them away from other people if they're hurting them.

Does that feel better framing it that way? Your job is to keep everyone safe and if one person is having a hard time with that, no matter their age, they need to be engaged in something else until they're feeling better.

[cuddleluvinma]

I agree with keeping everyone safe. I do sit with him until he and the other child are feeling better. And then we talk about it and his other options he had that wouldn't hurt others. Then we join everyone else. I say that he can play by himself if he's feeling out of control and I encourage him (and all of the kids) to put themselves in time away if they're feeling out of control or having a hard time dealing with things.

[The4OfUs]

I wasn't gettign the same vibe off your initial post as your last one, it seemes in the first one you weren't perhaps addressing it as seriously as you reported in the last post (darn internet communication difficulties!) - if you're doing all that you said in your last post, then you're doing about all you can do aside from a "you hit, you sit" policy (which I understand you don't want to do), so I'd just keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about other people. Good luck!!

re: 'you hit, you sit', physical aggression with either bodies or objects is the ONLY time I separate my kids and do a time-out-like thing. I don't isolate them from us for a set period of time and shame them, but whatever the activity was stops for the person who was aggressing until they can calm down and control themselves. In the immediate, I tell the aggressor to go sit (I don't have a specific spot and don't care here they sit, just want them physically separated - with the younger child I pick her up and separate her if she's the aggressor, and check on older child then take younger child to another area to talk with her...our "talks" are considerably less detailed, but I want older child to see I treat it equally seriously), and then check the "victim" to make sure they're OK, then go to the aggressor and sit with them and talk about other ways they could have gotten their point across. Then we sit for a bit to calm down, and then we go back to playing - sometimes DS needs to be left alone to calm down, because my presence keeps him wound up. So I guess technically they are sitting alone for a short time while I check on the other kid, but that's to get them immediately separated, not in a "you're bad so you can't be with us" kind of thing.

Anyway, it appears you are addressing it as best you can so I just wouldn't worry about other people.

[whozeyermamma]

I totally agree with The4ofUs - that's very similar to what we did/do.

I found that DD sometimes needs some space - I'm wondering if that's what your son needs -maybe a bit overwhelmed with all the kids around? I found that sometimes when DD was overwhelmed she actually really needed to just go away and rage and be angry for a while to get her sh*t together. Every kid is differnet - I just know her nad know that when she's angry I can't hug her or hold her or she just gets more peeved. She needs to collect herself before she can get the lesson.

We don't really do typical time outs - particular chair, timer, etc. When she was younger she went up to a room (safe, baby gated.) SHe can yell and cry as much as she wants (I think it's stupid to insist that kids be silent.) I tell her she has to stay there until she's ready to say "I'm sorry."

I think it's important for the aggressor to say "I'm sorry," and it's important to say what they are sorry for. I am totally against forced hugs or any other forced affection. But learning how to say I'm sorry even when you are still angry is important.

DD hasn't hit in ages but this is how it worked when she did. She whacks a kid b/c they have a toy she wants. I march her upstairs and tell her she has to stay until she can apologize. If she apologizes immediately, she comes down right away. This way, it is all up to her.

Meanwhile, I comfort the victim - make sure she's ok. Tell her that "It's not OK that DD hit you and I know she feels bad about it. She'll come down and say she's sorry when she's ready."

DD would shout down "I'm ready" I'd go get her and say "What do you want to say to Susie?" She says "I'm sorry." me: What are you sorry for? her: Hiting you. Then we have a little talk about why we don't hit, etc etc.

This worked really well for us.

[cuddleluvinma]

The4ofus-
My original post was a month ago. I've had to change my tactics. I was hesitant to be as coercive as I am now. I really wanted it to work the way that I was doing it originally. I still do talk to him about what I see and that hitting hurts.
But, now if he tries it again then I have to take him out of the room to cool off. I really don't like doing this and hope he grows out of this soon. But who knows.

whozeyermama-
I used to make the aggressor say "I'm sorry" but the more that i've been reading the more my mind agrees with what I'm reading Unconditional parenting by Alfie Kohn and now RAISING CHILDREN, RAISING OURSELVES by Naomi Aldort. I really don't want to teach that you should say something that is not true. Just because a child is willing to say "I'm sorry" doesn't necessarily mean that they feel that way. I want my kids to say the things they feel. When they say sorry to me I want to know that it is a heartfelt thing and not just something they have learned to do to get what they want. I want honesty. I don't MAKE ds say that he's sorry but when he's not in a rage and sees that he's hurt someone he says sorry without any coercion (not always but more and more often). I do say that It would make so and so feel better if you said that your sorry for hurting him/her.

[whozeyermamma]

Cuddle; I think we're actually on the same page - by the time DD calms down - she IS sorry and the apology is genuine. You're right - it absolutely wouldn't work if she said I'm sorry when she was still in a rage.

Thats what the calming down process is about - to get to a point where you realize what you did was wrong. (I probably didn't make myself clear before!)

[abac]

Originally Posted by cuddlelovinma

My original post was a month ago. I've had to change my tactics. I was hesitant to be as coercive as I am now. I really wanted it to work the way that I was doing it originally. I still do talk to him about what I see and that hitting hurts.
But, now if he tries it again then I have to take him out of the room to cool off. I really don't like doing this and hope he grows out of this soon. But who knows.

I really, strongly urge you to reconsider doing something that does not feel right to you.

Can you give the other children suggestions about how to deal with him? I find that asking children for suggestions is very helpful, and they often come up with great ideas that I wouldn't have considered otherwise. How many children do you watch? Are they similar ages?

I watched children in my home, and when you have children together in a child care setting, children are going to get hurt sometimes as a result of being around other children. Kids hit, and bite, and push. You said you didn't remove the other children when they hit your ds, and that the other children all grew out of their hitting phase. Why would you do things any differently for your ds?

[JustSo]

Originally Posted by whozeyermamma

I think it's important for the aggressor to say "I'm sorry," and it's important to say what they are sorry for. I am totally against forced hugs or any other forced affection. But learning how to say I'm sorry even when you are still angry is important.

hmmm...to me, it seems like teaching them to lie; saying something that they don't truly feel. If they want to say sorry, they can say it, but forcing them to say sorry doesn't feel right to me. jmo

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by cuddleluvinma

The4ofus-
My original post was a month ago. I've had to change my tactics. I was hesitant to be as coercive as I am now. I really wanted it to work the way that I was doing it originally. I still do talk to him about what I see and that hitting hurts.
But, now if he tries it again then I have to take him out of the room to cool off. I really don't like doing this and hope he grows out of this soon. But who knows.

whozeyermama-
I used to make the aggressor say "I'm sorry" but the more that i've been reading the more my mind agrees with what I'm reading Unconditional parenting by Alfie Kohn and now RAISING CHILDREN, RAISING OURSELVES by Naomi Aldort. I really don't want to teach that you should say something that is not true. Just because a child is willing to say "I'm sorry" doesn't necessarily mean that they feel that way. I want my kids to say the things they feel. When they say sorry to me I want to know that it is a heartfelt thing and not just something they have learned to do to get what they want. I want honesty. I don't MAKE ds say that he's sorry but when he's not in a rage and sees that he's hurt someone he says sorry without any coercion (not always but more and more often). I do say that It would make so and so feel better if you said that your sorry for hurting him/her.

I totally agree with not forcing an apology, particularly as a prerequisite for getting out of time out.

Cuddle - It sounds to me like you are doing what you have to. I am also a big fan of Unconditional Parenting. In my previous post I should have been more clear that what I was stating was based on the fact that you are running a day care. If you were only responsible for your own child then I would have responded differently. I myself would do things that other posters have mentioned including leaving the situation with my child if necessary. Unfortunately, as a day care provider, you can't do that and you have a resposibility to keep the other children safe (as you are obviously well aware!) As a parent, I don't like the coercive and behaviorist methods used at my dd's school, but I don't think the teachers there are equipped to discipline any other way. I would rather put up with my dd being treated that way by teachers than put up with her being hit or otherwise treated badly by the other kids. I think it is great that you are trying to care for children in your daycare following the same principles with which you parent, but I am not surprised and don't think it causes any harm when you have to do things differently. I think your ds can tell the difference between daycare time and family time. Maybe you could talk with him about different expectations (that he should have for you as well as that you have for him) in different situations. I would also suggest giving lots of extra affection and love after daycare is over everyday regardless of how he behaved that day. That will make you both feel better!

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by abac

Can you give the other children suggestions about how to deal with him?

What exactly are you thinking of here? The only suggestions for the other children dealing with him themselves I can think of are to hit back (which we clearly don't want!) or to refuse to play with him and go away, which is just basically having the kids enforce a time out. I believe this would cause him to feel more rejected than a gentle grown-up-enforced separation. I know I sound harsh, but to me this is like my calling the police because I was attacked and them responding with a brainstorming session on how I should deal with my attacker myself.

Originally Posted by abac

I watched children in my home, and when you have children together in a child care setting, children are going to get hurt sometimes as a result of being around other children. Kids hit, and bite, and push.

Yes, kids hit and bite occasionally. But if one child is doing this repeatedly, multiple times a day, then it is your responsibility as a care provider to put a stop to this and quickly. If this goes on and on, then you are not doing your job. I find you cavalier attitude about kids hitting each other very disturbing. With GD we are very aware of the damaging effects of harsh discipline on kids, but it is also damaging for a child to go day after day to a place where they do not feel safe because they are physically abused by another child, particularly if they get the impression that the adult who is supposed to be caring for them does not care enough to make it stop.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

with the younger child I pick her up and separate her if she's the aggressor, and check on older child then take younger child to another area to talk with her...our "talks" are considerably less detailed, but I want older child to see I treat it equally seriously

Heather -

I really like everything you've said in this thread, particularly the above about checking on the victim and wanting your older child to see that you treat hitting seriously. How we respond to this kind of situation communicates so much to all the children - aggressor, victim, and even observing bystanders.

[abac]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

What exactly are you thinking of here? The only suggestions for the other children dealing with him themselves I can think of are to hit back (which we clearly don't want!) or to refuse to play with him and go away, which is just basically having the kids enforce a time out. I believe this would cause him to feel more rejected than a gentle grown-up-enforced separation. I know I sound harsh, but to me this is like my calling the police because I was attacked and them responding with a brainstorming session on how I should deal with my attacker myself.



Yes, kids hit and bite occasionally. But if one child is doing this repeatedly, multiple times a day, then it is your responsibility as a care provider to put a stop to this and quickly. If this goes on and on, then you are not doing your job. I find you cavalier attitude about kids hitting each other very disturbing. With GD we are very aware of the damaging effects of harsh discipline on kids, but it is also damaging for a child to go day after day to a place where they do not feel safe because they are physically abused by another child, particularly if they get the impression that the adult who is supposed to be caring for them does not care enough to make it stop.

If a child is getting hit, I would suggest to them that they move away and say, "Stop hitting me." Depending on how old the other children are, they might not need intervention at all, (the OP mentioned her 2 and a half year old hitting her 12 year old, for example.) A two and a half year old hitting does not necessarily mean they are hurting the other child.

The children I watched and my ds all hit or pushed at different times. Sometimes they were having a hard day, sometimes a hard week. The fastest and easiest way for me to protect the child getting hit was to pick up that child. They are safe in my arms.

There is more than one way to tackle this problem. My suggestion to stop removing her ds, something that she doesn't feel comfortable doing, is not a suggestion to stand there and watch her ds attack other children with no regard for them at all.

I am not in the business of policing anybody, as I'm not all that fond of being policed myself. I do, however, enjoy helping children figure out the ways of getting along in a way that is respectful of ALL involved.

I often recognized ds's need for space away from the other children, but still with me, and would do as the OP has said, and take him away and stay with him, often just long enough for a story. The other children were happy to play in the other room while ds and I took a few moments away.

[LolaK]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

or to refuse to play with him and go away, which is just basically having the kids enforce a time out. I believe this would cause him to feel more rejected than a gentle grown-up-enforced separation.

Really???? I cannot think of a more natural consequence. A kid hits another kid, that kid says "I don't like being hit I am going away" and goes to play somewhere else. Sorry if that makes the hitter feel rejected but that is a NATURAL consequence of hitting someone.