are "those looks" worth any weight? - Page 2

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by LolaK

Really???? I cannot think of a more natural consequence. A kid hits another kid, that kid says "I don't like being hit I am going away" and goes to play somewhere else. Sorry if that makes the hitter feel rejected but that is a NATURAL consequence of hitting someone.

I agree that this is a natural consequence. I really dislike the natural consequence philosophy of parenting. The natural consequence of running in the street is getting hit by a car. Obviously people who advocate natural consequences would never allow their children to run in the street, but for me it is the principle that is wrong, not just the degree of consequence. To me, allowing my child to be hurt through inaction on my part is just the same as spanking her except I am not in control of the extent of the hurt, so she could possibly be damaged far worse than she would be if I spanked her. Of course I cannot protect her from all hurts and it would not be desirable if I could. But when I made the decision not to use pain and suffering as a method of discipline, that included pain and suffering caused by others and the natural world, as well as by myself.

Along with this, I think an equally likely natural consequence is that the victim will hit back. If we are encouraging kids to deal with being hit on their own, then how can we argue that hitting back is an unacceptable response? If the victim smacked the aggressor one instead of rejecting the aggressor, would you respond with sorry kid, but that's a natural consequence? If not, why not?

Also, why should the victim have to go play somewhere else? What if the kid is playing where the aggressor wants to play. If the aggressor hits the kid and the victim goes away, the aggressor is being rewarded for hitting.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by abac

If a child is getting hit, I would suggest to them that they move away and say, "Stop hitting me." Depending on how old the other children are, they might not need intervention at all, (the OP mentioned her 2 and a half year old hitting her 12 year old, for example.) A two and a half year old hitting does not necessarily mean they are hurting the other child.

If there is enough of an age difference then it is true you may not need to intervene. In my first post I specifically recommended letting her 12yo dd handle it herself. However, the OP described the victims as appearing afraid, really hurt, sad, or confused. I think it is clear the other kids are getting hurt. And if the other kids are 2 or 3 years older, I would be even less likely to encourage them to handle it themselves because I think after getting hit 2 or 3 or 10 times they are going to haul off and belt the 2 yo and perhaps really hurt him. Just as we can't expect a 2 1/2 yo to control himself, we can not expect a 3,4,5,6, or 7 yo to have infinite patience and keep saying "Stop hitting me" and walking away. That is why as grownups we have a responsibility to intervene.

Originally Posted by abac

The children I watched and my ds all hit or pushed at different times. Sometimes they were having a hard day, sometimes a hard week. The fastest and easiest way for me to protect the child getting hit was to pick up that child. They are safe in my arms.

That sounds like a great reaction to me. They are safe and it shows concern for the victim. However, all the kids can't stay in your arms all day. The OP mentioned 6 times when her ds hit someone in one morning. You don't want in your arms to be the only safe place. I think at that point you've got to do something more.

Originally Posted by abac

There is more than one way to tackle this problem. My suggestion to stop removing her ds, something that she doesn't feel comfortable doing, is not a suggestion to stand there and watch her ds attack other children with no regard for them at all.

I am not in the business of policing anybody, as I'm not all that fond of being policed myself. I do, however, enjoy helping children figure out the ways of getting along in a way that is respectful of ALL involved.

I often recognized ds's need for space away from the other children, but still with me, and would do as the OP has said, and take him away and stay with him, often just long enough for a story. The other children were happy to play in the other room while ds and I took a few moments away.

I agree that there are many different ways to handle the problem. Nevertheless, I stand by my first post when I said it is not fair to children (for whom you are getting paid to provide care, no less!) to be hit day after day while you try to figure out what works. Protecting ALL the children has got to be a care-provider's first priority, and sometimes the only way to do that is to remove the child who is hitting, for their own protection as well as that of the other children.

[swampangel]

This was my number one concern in putting my 3yo in preschool...I was very concerned about the aggression I saw at some preschool settings and the lack of involvement on the part of the adults. One in particular did a lot of talking it over afterward. At home, this is my preferred method, but at school not so much. The hitting just continued among these kids....there was no consequence and no real message that hitting and hurting others isn't ok and is not an option. A debriefing afterward just didn't seem to make an impact. I didn't choose this school for my kiddo.

I think the dynamics at school and daycare are different and call for different interventions. As a pp said earlier, schools aren't equipped to guide children the way we do at home. It just doesn't make sense. If I had 15 to 20 kids at my house I wouldn't be able to do it either!

I wonder if your child is feeling jealous and upset by having to share you with other children. When he acts out, he gets even more time with you. I'm not suggesting that he's consciously behaving like this to get your attention. But if getting more 1:1 time with you results from his hitting others, it might be reinforcing that behavior a bit.

With hitting and hurting of any kind, I have a very strong message to send my kids - we don't do it. period. I struggled for awhile when my oldest was about 2 1/2...I'd never had to put my foot down before and I wasn't comfortable with it at all. I had always been very gentle and never used time-outs. But when he began hitting and biting (not frequently, but enough) I realized that I needed to adjust my parenting. It took me awhile to figure out what I was comfortable doing and saying but now I feel very confident in being very clear that this isn't acceptable.


It sounds to me that you're moving into a different realm with your ds. I think there's always a bumpy, slightly uncomfortable shift when we find ourselves in a new phase of this journey. I think that's perfectly natural.

[abac]

If the victim smacked the aggressor one instead of rejecting the aggressor, would you respond with sorry kid, but that's a natural consequence?

Yes. It's not something I would encourage, but it happens and I think it's understandable when it does.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by abac

Yes. It's not something I would encourage, but it happens and I think it's understandable when it does.

That's where the divide is happening for me - because to me two wrongs don't make a right no matter what your age or development, and I feel it's my job to teach my kids that, so getting hit back wouldn't be OK for me for the recipient or the responder, natural or not. Also, to me understandable does not necessarily = acceptable, especially when someone (especially especially a child) is being harmed, even if by another child in a developmentally appropriate stage. Just because it is understandable doesn't make it excusable.

But hey, we're all different and have to find the way that works for us AND our individual children. I would agree that sometimes our children need different things than we might expect to be giving them (like the baby who wants their own sleeping space while the parents really want to cosleep, or the child who needs space to cool off and have a tantrum when the parent would really like to comfort them through it)...and so soemtimes the solution that will be ebst to help guide you child might not be the one you initially dreamt up, but you can adjust and realize that it's what is best for them.

[abac]

That's where the divide is happening for me - because to me two wrongs don't make a right no matter what your age or development, and I feel it's my job to teach my kids that, so getting hit back wouldn't be OK for me for the recipient or the responder, natural or not. Also, to me understandable does not necessarily = acceptable, especially when someone (especially especially a child) is being harmed, even if by another child in a developmentally appropriate stage. Just because it is understandable doesn't make it excusable.

I don't think it's acceptable either, not at all. But, you know, it happens. Really, if you keep hitting someone and they keep telling you to stop, you might get hit back. I certainly wouldn't suggest it, but children seem to come up with it on their own pretty quickly. That whole fight-or-flight reflex.

But, to clarify, I wasn't suggesting at all that anyone should stand by and not intervene if it's necessary. I suggested speaking with the children about it and getting some suggestions from them about how to handle it. I think if we leave them to their own devices, they might indeed end up hitting back. If we discuss it with them and ask for their input, they are much more likely to have a plan when the situation arises that will help them deal with it in a productive way. I have no interest in taking over a situation, I would rather get involved with the children with the understanding that they are learning and might need some guidance.

Again, there is more than one way to approach this. Removing a child against their wishes is not the only one. If you have trouble coming up with other ideas, ask the children for suggestions. They might surprise you. They don't have preconceived notions about how things are "supposed to be" and don't get caught up thinking that everything has to be "fair" all the time. As long as everyone's happy, everyone's happy. And I bet that a good deal of the time, children's suggestions would not include removing the offending child.

[swampangel]

I agree with abac that asking the children for feedback and suggestions is important. I think a lot of that depends on the children and their temperment, but I'm sure it would feel empowering to know that this is important enough to bring up with the group and that their input is valued.

With that, I still think that in a daycare setting it is paramount that safety is priority 1. If removing him keeps the other kids safe, I would do that. I think he and the other kids need to hear the clear message that no matter how angry we get, we don't hurt one another.

I remember at a playdate my ds bit my friend's ds. I wasn't doing time-outs and I did the taking him aside and talking to him. My friend was upset and rigthfully so. She felt that something more should have happened. This was hard for me at the time, but I quickly was able to see that she was right. By there being no real action taken, her ds didn't get the message that what happened to him was wrong and that the adults are there to make sure the kids are safe and learning not to do that. From then on, we would leave situations if my ds hurt anyone else. It wasn't punitive, it just was. If you can't be safe with others, then we can't be around others. Then the work really needs to be on what ds can do instead when he's feeling those big emotions.

This stuff takes time...kids don't suddenly stop acting out one day. It takes time to learn impulse control and use words and other tools other than hitting or biting.

[cuddleluvinma]

I just wanted to make it understood that I don't have 15-20 kida at my house. I have 4 kids including my ds. Every kid (including my own) gets one on one time during the day. And he gets LOTS after daycare is over.

Also, I wanted to let you all know that he seems to have grown out of his phase (mostly). but, others are into theirs. : We'll get through it.

It's late and I wanted to respond to more but need some sleep.

Thank you for all of your responses.

[katheek77]

Is it possible that lavishing the attention on the VICTIM might help him change his ways? As in, quickly saying, "DS, I need to go to X right now. She's hurt/angry/sad that you hit her, so, I'm going to make sure she's ok". The go to the child, talk to her about what happened, give her hugs or cuddles, etc. Spend a little time with the child, THEN go back to your son. You're not ignoring him, but you're making it clear that if he hits someone, you are going to have to spend time with that child. To me, it's a natural consequence...

[jillmamma]

I have done daycare out of my home as well (no daycare kids at the moment though). One thing I would do is keep track of when it is happening and in what situations. Is it more common say when he is getting hungry or tired? When too many of them are trying to play with the same toy? When they are doing a certain activity? Maybe if you can notice a pattern, it might be easier to step in and prevent emotions from escalating to aggression? Like, if he is doing it more right before lunch, get him to come in with you to help prepare lunch while the others are playing. Or if it is when he first gets up from a nap, give him some cuddle time on your lap for a bit first (read everyone a book with your son on your lap, or feed them an afternoon snack and let him sit on your lap). That gives him a bit of separation from others during those times, yet more time with you. I know it is hard sometimes when all 4 of them need something NOW and there is only one of you! Good luck!

[swampangel]

I mentioned 15-20 kid referring to schools...I think the discussion became more general and less about your OP...sorry about that! I'm glad your ds is doing better.

[cotopaxi]

re: the forcing an "I'm sorry" or a hug, when I worked at a preschool, we didn't force those things. however, the aggressor did have to do something to make amends -- usually bringing an ice pack to the victim or whatever other appropriate item the victim requested. this, like kathee was suggesting, gives most of the attention to the victim, not the aggressor. and it put some responsibility on the agressor to remedy his mistake, without forcing him to say something he didn't mean.

[cuddleluvinma]

Yes. I do go to the child who is hurt. That's what I meant when I said in my OP that depending on the severity...that I give a hug and then talk with him. I rushed writing the OP and really didn't want it to get to be too long. So things where not explained as well as they should have been. But, I do hug (cuddle with) the child if s/he gets hurt and THEN go to ds.

I like the idea of tracking when and why these situations happen. I have thought and have kinda kept my eye on it. But, it seems that there are so many things going on all of the time and I loose track of the when and why's throughout the day. But, I think that I'm going to write it down on my daily log. Never have been good with paperwork. I always forget to write things because it gets busy and then when there is finally some downtime I'm sitting forever trying to think of everything that has happened in the last few hours.

I have ds come up with something that would make the victim feel better wether it be a hug, an "i'm sorry", sitting with him/her. getting a blanket, moving a toy off of the rocker so that the victim and I can cuddle and so on.

I really wish that I would have been more thorough in my OP. Sorry

[ssh]

I was watching a 12 month old for awhile.When I first started the two of them would play together or happily ignor each other. My DD, 23 months, started getting jealous as the times became more frequent, and longer. She tried to hit and push the other little girl. I would keep them apart by letting my DD do big girl activities at the kitchen table, like drawing with markers, playing with playdoh, or 'washing' plastic dishes in my sink.
Keeping the aggressor away from the victim doesn't have to be a punishment. I feel it's important to protect the victim. When the situation didn't improve I stopped watching the other child. My DD is usually an affectionate, easygoing child. I felt if the situation was upsetting enough to make her have violent impulses it couldn't be good for her. She was also having problems sleeping. It's been three days and her behavior is back to normal.