Dd says she can't control her emotions - Page 2

[Magella]

Originally Posted by Thao

"I won't discuss this with you when you are talking like that. If you would like to talk to me about something, we need to talk about it nicely." It doesn't always help, but it has a better success rate than any other method.

I say this sometimes too, and it does help.

Originally Posted by Thao

With her, if I ignore it, she just keeps it up until she gets a reaction from me (I dunno, maybe she's more persistent than your kids!). Basically all I can do is either snap or leave the room. Snapping obviously is no good, and if I leave she takes it as abandonment and escalates, so either way it ends up a mess.

My girls are extremely persistent (my boy is very easy going, though), and I'm not more calm (I feel very frustrated, regularly, and do struggle with yelling and snapping at my kids, I'm a work in progress). Though I can be (but am not always) stubbornly neutral enough that they'll drop it. But, I had many years of practice working at a residential program for kids with autism where "firm but neutral" responses and ignoring behavior (but not the child) were job requirements, so I can draw on that when I'm really frustrated and I'm having trouble remaining calm. And *sigh* they freak out if I walk away, too so I've had to learn to take "mental time outs" instead of physical ones when I need it.

[Magella]

Back with a separate thought.

Originally Posted by Thao

About the choice thing, though, I do believe that she can choose. I've seen her do it. I've seen her start up her "fussy" motor and then suddenly cut it off, as though she suddenly decided, "ah, I'm not in the mood for this now".

I've been thinking a lot about choice when it comes to behavior and anger, and this particular sentence has really touched me. I would like to share something with you that is very personal and very much a struggle, and the reason I'm sharing it is that understanding this about myself has helped me understand my own angry daughter differently (which in turn, has helped me help her). You may not agree, and I realize that what I'm about to say may not in any way apply to your dd (I don't know her, and I don't know you).

I have struggled with anger for years. Not just feeling angry, but specifically with how I behave when angry. This is something that I only struggle with in the context of parenting. I don't believe it is appropriate to yell at my children, or take nasty tones with them. But I do at times, and I feel shame thinking about it (though I have gotten much better over time). If someone were to observe me, what they would see is that sometimes I handle my anger inappropriately and yell at my children. They would also see that sometimes, I start to sound irritable and the signs are there that I'm going to yell (if someone observed me long enough, they'd know the signs as you know when your dd's fussy motor is starting up) and then suddenly stop it and shift gears-as if I'd chosen, suddenly, that I just don't want to yell right now. They'd also see that sometimes, I may look a bit frustrated or sound tense but overall handle the situation calmly. I imagine that if someone were observing all of this, they might come to the conclusion that it's more or less a simple matter of choice for me. An observer who isn't privy to my inner landscape might think that I am a mother to whom yelling in anger feels good (as in a release) at times, who is sometimes motivated enough to chose to behave respectfully when angry, and who at other times chooses to go ahead and behave disrespectfully when angry (not motivated enough to choose otherwise). An observer might think that it's only a matter of choice, that if I can choose do do better I should choose to do better, and if I choose to do better I will do better.

What an observer wouldn't be able to see, and what I might not be able to adequately express, is that it's just a lot more complex than that. I have the greatest motivation in the world: I love my children and desperately want to be a respectful, gentle mother who doesn't yell, I think my children deserve this. That is always, always there. I believe, strongly, that yelling is disrespectful and that a pattern of yelling is damaging. Yelling never, ever feels good. In fact, it feels terrible every time. However, it isn't as simple as just deciding to stop. There are so many factors that go into my being able to handle my anger more effectively and without yelling, and so many factors that go into those times when I do yell. At all times I bear full responsibility for my actions, and yet it is never so simple as "just decide not to do it, just do better." What I learned as a child from my own parents plays a part in my yelling, my own thoughts and perceptions play a role in my yelling, stress (both in parenting and in other areas of my life) plays a role, anxiety plays a role, sensory input plays a role, expectations play a role, what has happened as a consequence of my yelling in the past plays a role (if yelling got my kids to do what I wanted in the past, I'm tempted to yell again), how much support I have plays a role, how clearly I'm thinking (and we don't think as clearly when stressed or very angry/frustrated/scared/etc.) plays a role. In order to do better, I have had to change how I think, change how I perceive, understand differently, learn a lot of skills (parenting, communication, relaxation, emotional, cognitive, etc.), acquire a lot of information, get the right amount and type of support, reduce stress, and make sure my own physical and emotional needs are adequately met. When my cup is full enough of what I need (I have adequate resources, internal and external, to draw on), I can relatively easily give and care for my kids without yelling; when my cup is maybe not quite full enough but not empty enough either, I can start down the path to yelling then catch myself, stop, and choose to be gentle; when it's nearly empty it's extremely difficult to handle my emotions well and this is when I'm likely to yell. It's never simple. It only seems simple when my cup is full enough. The full enough cup is what allows me to do better, not sheer force of will.

I see this now when it comes to my child. I don't always know what exactly it is that she needs, but I do know that she is still learning to manage her emotions as I am. I do know that it's no more simple for her than it is for me. Understanding that allows me to more effectively guide her.

I guess I just urge you to reconsider whether it's just a simple matter of choice for your child, whatever approach you decide to take.

[Thao]

Thank you sledg, for sharing that with me.

You are right that I am not a person with a temper -- I'm naturally pretty calm -- so the whole landscape of anger is foreign to me. However I've been dealing with my husband for 12 years now and through heart to heart talks with him do understand (at least on an intellectual level) a lot of what you talk about. And I would never say that, when dd's anger has progressed to a certain level, there is any "choice" involved any more. When she has had her few meltdowns, I actually thought of you and sat with her quietly, just being there for her and helping her calm down. I knew that at that point she was no longer in control.

I am talking about interactions like the one I described in my last post, where she lashes out suddenly over a frustration. I know that with some practice she can learn to control this habit, and it is essential that she does. But then I come back to the whole point of my post: she does not appear to be motivated to try. All of the regular GD methods for motivating her, talking (after the fact) about feelings, identifying her needs, brainstorming strategies, etc, are rejected by her. I think the poster who said I talk too much got it right.

Dd can't learn if she doesn't try, you know? When she is motivated, she absolutely does a better job of controlling her flare-ups.

She used to yell at her friends alot. Then my dh had the brainstorm of talking to her about leadership (she really is a natural leader), and how leadership by example is more powerful than leadership by fear. Since that talk, she has really changed the way she relates to her friends. And she's talked to us about it, so we know that she is processing what he said, and making changes based on it.

I need to find something similar to motivate her to learn to handle her flare-ups with us now.

No flare-ups yesterday, first day of the point system. But she had a friend over and went out with said friend for a while, so she was occupied all day. We'll see how today goes.

[laoxinat]

Great resource for 'diagnosing" kids' goals

Hey Mama!
Good job being there for your girl! She sounds like a pistol! I love the Adlerian Theory of family democracy. Not only is it respectful of our kids' needs, it is also respectful of ours. Kids have private logic that is not always obvious to us as adults. And I agree with a previous poster that transitions are not necessarily a good barometer of our relationships with our kids. They can just plain throw us for a loop!! This link has a great chart that can help clarify a child's motivation. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...in/dealing.htm
At 7.5, it is debatable how much she is willing to take responsibility for, but the truth is, emotions are a choice. They don't feel like it to most of us, but they are rooted in beliefs, and we have choices about what we believe. Check out www.option.org there is a book section that has a couple of Bears Kaufman's books in their entirety. I LOVE the book Happiness is a Choice. It's a quick, easy read and will absolutely give you lots of resources. Change can suck, but you'll be fine. Your kid is lucky to have you, and you are lucky to have her.
laoxinat

[Thao]

Thanks, laoxinat, for that link! I agree with you absolutely that happiness is choice and based on our underlying assumptions and beliefs. It's a slightly different way of looking at her behavior. I'm going to mull over the link (I'm supposed to be working today :-O) and get back to this thread.

[Thao]

Well, dd lost her first point this evening. She was upset but not too much. Mostly just wanted some mechanism in place to earn the point back (she's a perfectionist!) I told her no, because the goal of the whole exercise was to have her be more aware of avoiding the negative behavior. I reassured her that she will get 8 fat new points on Saturday and I have every confidence in her that she had enough points to get through the week. But I also told her about your idea, Sledg, with the marbles and the jar. She loved it! So we are going to start that too. Points for the negative, marbles for the positive. I'm hoping that I can let the points go fairly soon and just keep the marbles.

Thanks so much for the suggestion!

[Magella]

First I want to be clear that in my last post, which I had trouble making into a coherent thing, my intention was not to paint a picture of blaming circumstances. I firmly believe that it's neither accurate nor productive to blame circumstances for our choices. The responsibility for our feelings and actions is always our own. And yet our internal and external circumstances do affect how we feel and what we choose to do and say, so understanding that and understanding the part our internal and external circumstances play in our choices and feelings frees us to take responsibility for our own feelings, to take responsibility for caring for our needs, and to take responsibility for our choices/actions. Once we're aware of this, we have a universe of choice open to us. It's just not always simple or easy, though always possible, to cultivate that awareness and choose to do differently.

Originally Posted by Thao

I am talking about interactions like the one I described in my last post, where she lashes out suddenly over a frustration. I know that with some practice she can learn to control this habit, and it is essential that she does. But then I come back to the whole point of my post: she does not appear to be motivated to try.

I think this all falls along a continuum, from the really out of control moments to the single sudden lashing out. It all requires the same skills. I do believe that this kind of sudden lashing out you mention can certainly be a habit, and that habit can be hard to break. I also believe it can be the case that though it may seem sudden, it may be that other things have led to increasing silent frustration/anxiety/anger over time until it all comes spilling out in one moment of lashing out over a minor thing.

I do think that when child appears unmotivated to try, when the same problems keep coming up over and over and we're thinking "why doesn't this child want to do better," it's worth seriously considering what might be getting in the way other than lack of motivation. Then we can address the situation both by providing incentives (if we feel it's needed) and teaching skills. I cannot recommend highly enough the book The Explosive Child: A New Approach for Understanding and Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children. I recommend it even if a parent doesn't consider their child "explosive" or "easily frustrated and chronically inflexible" because it explains so very well each of the skills required to handle a frustrating situation (like being told "no") adaptively. And I find the approach to discipline extremely helpful and effective in teaching those skills (it's harder when it comes to sibling fighting, our problem area I mentioned before, but I think that's our fumbling around trying to learn how to facilitate collaborative problem solving with the children).

Anyway, I'm glad she's doing better and that she likes the marble jar idea. And just tossing this out there, but the reason we're not taking away marbles is that we'd like to keep this really positive, keep the focus on what we do want to see and on the kids' successes. What you focus on, you get more of.

Have a great day! I'm all done barraging you with my thoughts and beating that dead horse. I just love "talking" with you, sorry I'm talking ad nauseam. This has been way helpful to me.

[Thao]

Thanks, sledg, I've enjoyed talking to you too! I'll check out The Explosive Child again -- I've looked at it but she really doesn't fit the description so I haven't bought it. We rarely have meltdowns or any out-of-the-ordinary problems; just chronic inconsiderate/rude communication. But as you said, the skills it teaches are probably useful for any parenting situation.

I do "get" what you are saying about looking for causes and trying to teach skills. I have been trying to do this all along, it's been my primary mode of operation. I am feeling at this point that I need to stop talking and simply enforce standards. Naturally if it appears that what I am doing is ineffective, or damaging to our relationship, I'll stop.

We had another good day yesterday. I'm still sick, and she is still frustrated about that, but she wasn't rude about it. I played with her some and then plopped on the couch and watched a movie while she drew, so we both got our needs met :-).

[bobica]

Originally Posted by sledg

IME, it's easy to get into a cycle where I'm really focused on what I don't like about my child and her behavior, both in thought and in words/action. This, in turn, disrupts our connection and is discouraging to her which feeds the very behavior I don't like. It's a vicious cycle. I find that at times, what my child most needs in order to feel and do better is for me to work at repairing and strengthening our relationship/connection. Sometimes it necessary to focus more on the relationship, and much less on the unwanted behavior.

I find that doing things like making the effort to look in her eyes and smile helps: when she wakes up, when she comes home from school, when she's comes back to reconnect after playing on her own. It helps to spend one-on-one time with her doing what she wants to do, and for some reason this works best if it's my idea (not me saying yes after she's asked repeatedly, or saying yes to her every time-but more like a surprise or scheduled special time). It helps to make the effort to notice her positive attributes. It helps to make sure I'm really modeling the behavior I'd like to see in her. It helps to encourage her, and to enjoy being with her just as she is (if I'm having trouble enjoying her, it's really important to find something positive to enjoy about her). And so on.

There is something about taking the time to nurture our connection that either helps my child feel better so she can do better, or that gives her more motivation (or both, likely). I'm not talking about catering to her every whim or constantly setting aside and neglecting my needs. I'm talking about creating a quality of connection.

Along these lines, I really enjoyed Connection Parenting and Hold On To Your Kids.

sledg, this is some of the best advice i've ever read. thank you. i'm printing it out & keeping it with me as a reminder- this is exactly what happens with dd & me.