Another question about a consequence

[Heavenly]

I've seen that in the thread below about the child being punished away from playgroup a lot of people think the OP was too harsh (I don't agree that she was too harsh). I find myself in somewhat of a similar situation. My son is 6.5 (7 in January) and has rages occasionally. Today he threw a major one - hitting me, knocking over chairs, laughing in my face, threatening me, tearing his room apart, etc. Yes, I get very concerned when he has these rages that something is wrong with him. But anyways I told him that he could not go to AWANA tonight which is a kids club he goes to on Wednesday nights. My reasoning for this is he needs to go to be early tonight. We had a big family wedding on the weekend and out of town family in the area and the kids were up really late Saturday and Sunday (12 am and 10 pm) and then up until after 9 pm Monday and Tuesday. IMO he must be overtired and therefore he needs to go to bed early. If he were to go to AWANA he would not be in bed until after 9 pm again and he can't sleep in tomorrow morning because he has violin lessons. So is this punishment too harsh in people's opinions? Do you expect that a 6.5 year old child should know better than a 4 year old than to behave like this?

Oh I thought I should add his younger sister is still going and she is bringing a friend with her because it is bring a friend night. Elijah was going to ask Olivia's friends brother but I still think he should have to miss it due to his outrageously horrible behaviour.

[cutekid]

I don't think so. Actually I am one of the few who thinks that the other parent was fine. Honestly, I am all for logical consequences. For older child if the consequence is delayed that is fine they understand that they will lose out on an activity as a result of their behavior.
As for taking AWANA away, I would also talk with him about his feelings before the rages happen. Help him walk through a "rage". Also help him find a proper way to unload the emotions. I am sure at six you guys can come up with a way for your DS to do that.
Also let him know that there are consequences for "rage" like behavior.

HTH.

Denise

[Magella]

My thoughts are that punishments/consequences after the fact are much less effective at addressing problematic behavior than proactive measures (IME). Because I think punishment is not very effective, I wouldn't keep my child home as punishment with the expectation that it would motivate better behavior the next time. Two books I've found helpful in addressing and reducing my child's rages were The Explosive Child and Raising A Thinking Child. Both focus on proactive measures.

However if it were my child and he were overtired and I thought that might be a contributing factor, or if I were concerned about how he'd feel the next day if he stayed up late again, I might make the same decision to have him stay home. I would, however, frame it not as a consequence/punishment but talk instead about what his body needs, pointing out how the lack of sleep/late bedtimes has affected him. I would probably, in fact, make a point of saying that it isn't a punishment, but simply what his body and mind seem to need.

Talking about the rage episode, appropriate behavior, and working together to prevent another rage episode would be a separate conversation.

[WuWei]

Could he take a nap? Could you skip violin lessons tomorrow morning, or reschedule them? Could he have the friend come to the house to play and leave early, so that he still gets to bed early and has fun? Could you plan another "fun outing" as replacement for the missed AWANA tonight? Could you go to/rent a movie together and make tonight a special "just us" time together, with popcorn and snuggles? Create ways to connect with him and his needs for fun and rest, would be my goals.

I second The Explosive Child book. Also, are there dietary variables which aggravated his behavior? And examine what were the underlying issues related to the rage? We only resist when opposed, in my experience. How could you work *with* him, so that the rage was abated? The Explosive Child book helps about collaborative problem solving.

My experience is that "rage" or "tantrums" have a fuel and a trigger. The fuel is a need/want/desire, the trigger is usually an obstruction of meeting that desire.

Pat

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think that expecting a 6 YO to control his rage and/or remove himself to his room to rage is perfectly reasonable. And its reasonable to say "You are overtired and therefore need to go to bed early tonight and thus cannot go to whatever activity this evening." I'm not sure saying "Because you raged then you can't do X" is as effective as giving the full reason for the consequence though. A lot of it depends on just what is said, when its said, and the tone of voice.

But I don't think it can end there. You, the parent, must ALSO take the step to look around and figure out what went wrong, why, and, most importantly, how to prevent it or address it proactively in the future. JUST imposing a consequence for unacceptible behavior that you could have predicted due to overtired (or bad diet, or too many changes or whatever) is unfair to everyone. Yes, its reasonable to expect a school age child to control himself, but it is also our responsibility as parents to minimize the issues that contribute issues.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

I think that expecting a 6 YO to control his rage and/or remove himself to his room to rage is perfectly reasonable. And its reasonable to say "You are overtired and therefore need to go to bed early tonight and thus cannot go to whatever activity this evening." I'm not sure saying "Because you raged then you can't do X" is as effective as giving the full reason for the consequence though. A lot of it depends on just what is said, when its said, and the tone of voice.

I agree with this (mostly; it depends on the 6.5 yr old and the situation, but I agree that at that age hopefully a child is beginning to move towards some degree of control) and I have some other thoughts.

Sometimes, as a parent, you just do what works. If this consequence/punishment works this month, then hurray and move on, in that sense.

For me there is a longer-term goal which is discipline, or more precisely, self-discipline.

I don't keep myself from raging at and hitting or threatening my coworkers because I'm scared of the consequences (which would probably be at least losing my job). I keep myself from doing that because I don't believe in intimidating people, or maybe more self-interestedly, I don't want to be the kind of person who uses those kinds of tactics.

And I don't think that punishment of the kind you mentioned will entirely help your son to develop that moral compass.

In a sense it will because a BIG part of anger management is knowing how not to get overwhelmed - so learning "I'm too tired, I had better skip this," is really helpful. But if it is just a "don't do this, so you get to do that" kind of equation I don't think it is helpful. It can even be detrimental in that he may feel less guilty about hitting you if he has "paid his dues," so to speak (and really, at 6.5, I think it is okay for him to experience the natural guilt - not so much a 4 yr old); he may also decide that it's okay to hit and rage if you don't get caught.

So that's why for me, ok, whether it works or not, it really can't be the final word on that kind of thing - there has to be some other strategy that comes into play.

[kkeris]

Originally Posted by sledg

My thoughts are that punishments/consequences after the fact are much less effective at addressing problematic behavior than proactive measures (IME). Because I think punishment is not very effective, I wouldn't keep my child home as punishment with the expectation that it would motivate better behavior the next time. Two books I've found helpful in addressing and reducing my child's rages were The Explosive Child and Raising A Thinking Child. Both focus on proactive measures.

However if it were my child and he were overtired and I thought that might be a contributing factor, or if I were concerned about how he'd feel the next day if he stayed up late again, I might make the same decision to have him stay home. I would, however, frame it not as a consequence/punishment but talk instead about what his body needs, pointing out how the lack of sleep/late bedtimes has affected him. I would probably, in fact, make a point of saying that it isn't a punishment, but simply what his body and mind seem to need.

Talking about the rage episode, appropriate behavior, and working together to prevent another rage episode would be a separate conversation.

Originally Posted by WuWei

Could he take a nap? Could you skip violin lessons tomorrow morning, or reschedule them? Could he have the friend come to the house to play and leave early, so that he still gets to bed early and has fun? Could you plan another "fun outing" as replacement for the missed AWANA tonight? Could you go to/rent a movie together and make tonight a special "just us" time together, with popcorn and snuggles? Create ways to connect with him and his needs for fun and rest, would be my goals.

My experience is that "rage" or "tantrums" have a fuel and a trigger. The fuel is a need/want/desire, the trigger is usually an obstruction of meeting that desire.

Pat

:

IMO, even though its very reasonable to expect a 6yo to exhibit more reasonable behaviour compared to a 4yo, I still wouldnt punish because I would rather spend my energy/time figuring out how to work with him to prevent such behaviour in future, instead of taking away something precious to him hoping that this would get him to not throw a tantrum in future. I do not want my child to do the right thing because he is worried about not being able to attend fun events, I want him to do the right thing for the right reasons.

[ann_of_loxley]

IMO, even though its very reasonable to expect a 6yo to exhibit more reasonable behaviour compared to a 4yo, I still wouldnt punish because I would rather spend my energy/time figuring out how to work with him to prevent such behaviour in future, instead of taking away something precious to him hoping that this would get him to not throw a tantrum in future. I do not want my child to do the right thing because he is worried about not being able to attend fun events, I want him to do the right thing for the right reasons.

I completly agree!
I would also NEVER 'punish' a child for their tantrum, even if in mid tantrum it invovled things unacceptable (such as hitting/biting/etc)... its almost like saying to the child its wrong/bad to have feelings - you must be punished for feeling bad!
My son is only 2, so I dont know what I would expect from a 4 or 6 year old (let alone my one day to be 4 or 6 year old) - but I would hope that by those ages, I have done something right enough that such situations would not happen. We have tantrums now and we work on them! They are not ignored, feelings are expessed and better ways to deal are encouraged and explained. Already my two year knows feelings are alright - I will be there for him if he is feeling good or bad, he can tell me, and if he is angry or enraged - to scream into a pillow! - If he knows this now, I wouldnt expect something so out of control from him at an older age imo...

My experience is that "rage" or "tantrums" have a fuel and a trigger. The fuel is a need/want/desire, the trigger is usually an obstruction of meeting that desire.

I agree with that as well! - You yourself have figured out that the problem is because he is just overtired! For my son right now its simple, hes either tired or hungry and because of this cant think staight!...but you also said:

We had a big family wedding on the weekend and out of town family in the area and the kids were up really late Saturday and Sunday (12 am and 10 pm) and then up until after 9 pm Monday and Tuesday

So IMO - thats not his problem! Ex: 3 year old in town with a scooter his mum let him take out - goes too far ahead of his mum more than her liking, boy gets yelled at and punished....well honeslty! - whats to be expected?! Who let him take the scooter into town?! lol :

So my suggestions would be the same as WuWei's! - Early nap, change time of violin lessons, etc!

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

But anyways I told him that he could not go to AWANA tonight which is a kids club he goes to on Wednesday nights. My reasoning for this is he needs to go to be early tonight.

I am confused...

Originally Posted by Heavenly

Oh I thought I should add his younger sister is still going and she is bringing a friend with her because it is bring a friend night. Elijah was going to ask Olivia's friends brother but I still think he should have to miss it due to his outrageously horrible behaviour.

Which one is it? He can't go because he is over tired?
Or is it like you said at the end that you don't want him to go because of how he behaved?

It seems like a punishment that you are trying to re frame so that it sounds better.

If you are worried about him being too tired then give him a choice...Violin lessons or Awana.


Would you have stayed home from the wedding or an event that was important to YOU because of his tiredness? Or is it only things that you know he really wants to do?

I guess I am trying to get to the bottom of your motivations, because you are saying 2 different things.


And no, I don't believe in punishing a child this way. He is only 6.
Of course he can't totally control himself yet. That is why he needs you.

[junipermuse]

I have to say that insisting ds miss awana seems like a punishment to me. First of all even though everyone stayed up late and are presumably tired, only ds has to miss awana. So keeping him home is not about being tired, its about his tantrum. Second it doesn't seem like he was given any choices such as not staying up late the previous nights or not having family visiting. He had no control over any of these precursors to the rage. It seems like you're putting all the responsibility of the rage on him. I also feel that everyone is entitled to a meltdown every once in a while, even adults so why not a 6 year old. I don't think punishment helps a person "learn" not to meltdown because they usually happen when a person is all out of resources. No matter how old the person is if they could avoid the tantrum they would. As a person gets older they develop more and more resources to cope with frustration so they have fewer and fewer meltdowns, but eventually everyone loses control. The best way to deal with it is to discuss afterwards ways in which it can be avoided next time. If together you both recognize that he is tired, than skipping awana could be one of several options given to ds for dealing with his tiredness, but it shouldn't be the only option and it shouldn't be because he had a tantrum. It should also be enjoyable (like watching a special video or laying a special game with mom)to make up for missing something fun.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

I think that expecting a 6 YO to control his rage and/or remove himself to his room to rage is perfectly reasonable. And its reasonable to say "You are overtired and therefore need to go to bed early tonight and thus cannot go to whatever activity this evening." I'm not sure saying "Because you raged then you can't do X" is as effective as giving the full reason for the consequence though. A lot of it depends on just what is said, when its said, and the tone of voice.

yeah that. It depends on how it's said, and the intent.

I also like WuWei's idea of letting him have the choice of having a nap (if his over tiredness is indeed the reason).

What he did was absolutely not acceptable. But it seems that there are more effective ways to guide him in it, than punishing him (which seems quite likely to have the opposite effect).

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by ann_of_loxley

I completly agree!

My son is only 2, so I dont know what I would expect from a 4 or 6 year old (let alone my one day to be 4 or 6 year old) - but I would hope that by those ages, I have done something right enough that such situations would not happen.

I'm sure you didn't mean it, but that sounded really judgemental. Tantrums are not always an issue of doing something right enough or no.

[L&IsMama]

Originally Posted by ann_of_loxley

I would also NEVER 'punish' a child for their tantrum, even if in mid tantrum it invovled things unacceptable (such as hitting/biting/etc)... its almost like saying to the child its wrong/bad to have feelings - you must be punished for feeling bad!

I want my kids to know it is absolutely okay to have angry feelings, but it is not okay to hurt people, property or themselves in the process. So, imo, if my 6 yr old was raging as the op described, the logical consequence would be to put back anything he disrupted after the rage, take a relaxing bath, talk about the incident and how he can express rage without hurting things and other people. And an earlier bedtime or quiet time reading/listening to music. Obviously it's a good idea to get to the root of why he raged like this, but it seems pretty self explanatory to me:the op's ds had a busy weekend prior, going to bed late, and I would venture to guess that that really threw him off. Some kids are super sensitive to changes in routines and bedtimes.

[famousmockngbrd]

My 2 year old is driving me crazy

Sorry, posted in the wrong place. :

[rachelalle]

I think that giving children consequences is a wonderful way to teach kids about life.

[Danaoc]

Originally Posted by rachelalle

I think that giving children consequences is a wonderful way to teach kids about life. We have consequences as adults. We go into a rage and try to hit someone and we may end up in jail. I dont want that to happen to my child. The police arent going to sit with you and talk about it...

I see this argument for consequences all the time and the problem I have with associating consequences to "real life" is that well...the police are not the ones who are supposed to unconditionally love our children either. The police do not have the job of tucking our kids in at night and loving them no matter how they behave.

For me, I used to say to myself that my child needed to learn consequences because that is what real life is all about. But I came to the conclusion that THEY WILL learn them in natural situations they come across all the time.

They forget a jacket - they'll get cold.
They move out of a line - they lose their place.
They are late for a school bus - it goes without them.
They forget their homework - they lose points at school.
They don't take money to the store - they don't buy something.
The forget a toy at a friend's house - they have to go back and get it.
etc, etc, etc.

It's my job as a parent to guide, teach, and LOVE my child through trials and tribulations. Children will get enough consequences out in real life, and I imagine that I am my child's safety net. I'm the one I want my child to come to for love and comfort when life will naturally throw them the hard knocks of consequences. I don't need to add myself to the list of enforcers/punishers.

This is not to say I don't have rules or I don't work with my son on behaviors.
But I do not use consequences to control behavior, especially under the guise that he needs to learn them from me or else he'll learn them the harder way in real life.

This does not feel right to me: "If you are doing this, then this will happen to you."
This feels right to me: "If you are doing this, then let me help you do this instead."

As to the original post, I might have explained to my son that we would not go to the event because of being overtired and I would have given him a choice of something fun to do to make up for missing his activity. I would not have related it to his behavior as a consequence/punishment. Then I would have love flooded him for the rough day we both had, and I would have talked to him about what caused the tantrum and what worked and what didn't work.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by rachelalle

Kids naturally need boundaries and when there are none they get very scared and out of control inside.

Kids naturally have boundaries. The world comes with boundaries. I see no reason to create boundaries for children, there are plenty that exist already.

However, I agree that children get very scared and feel out of control when THEIR PARENTS (or caregivers) have no boundaries. I don't think that it's necessary to punish a child or make them sit in their high chair for ten to fifteen minutes in order to enforce our personal boundaries. But I do think it's important that we do enforce them, otherwise how will our children learn to enforce their own? What do you think the child would have done had you said, "I hear that you're done with your lunch. Tell me, 'All done!' and I will you get down. Do not hit me."?

[pookel]

Originally Posted by natensarah

What do you think the child would have done had you said, "I hear that you're done with your lunch. Tell me, 'All done!' and I will you get down. Do not hit me."?

My kid would have hit me again and giggled. He thinks it's hilarious to do things he's been told not to do.

[Danaoc]

Originally Posted by pookel

My kid would have hit me again and giggled. He thinks it's hilarious to do things he's been told not to do.

Yup, we've all been there! LOL. This is the exact crux where it is easy to take a consequential or GD route. I think our emotions start riding an upward escalator when they repeat the behaviors - it's so easy to turn to punishments, consequences, or whatever that will stop the behavior immediately. But in the long run, I don't think those benefit our children OR get our message across of the appropriate behaviors we'd rather have happen.

The GD route at this exact point for me sounds like this: "Hitting doesn't work. You can do this instead." Gentle, yet firm. Repeat, repeat, repeat as necessary while doing my best to remain calm.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Danaoc

Yup, we've all been there! LOL. This is the exact crux where it is easy to take a consequential or GD route. I think our emotions start riding an upward escalator when they repeat the behaviors - it's so easy to turn to punishments, consequences, or whatever that will stop the behavior immediately. But in the long run, I don't think those benefit our children OR get our message across of the appropriate behaviors we'd rather have happen.

The GD route at this exact point for me sounds like this: "Hitting doesn't work. You can do this instead." Gentle, yet firm. Repeat, repeat, repeat as necessary while doing my best to remain calm.

Very well said!