Specific question about anti-circ scripture - NO DEBATE

[fishface]

I read once that there is a passage in the bible that says something along the lines of "you may not circumcise in the name of Christianity". Is this true, and if so can you quote the scripture? I know NOTHING about the bible. I'm just wondering because my Catholic friend & his wife are 4 months pregnant. I'm hoping I can approach them with "well, the bible says XYZ". Plus I don't understand how people who are pro-life and "life begins at conception" and all that can believe that and still believe it's ok to cut your baby up. That aside, no debates please, just asking for your help. Thanks!

Also it would be a HUGE HELP if someone could tell me what a covenant with god is. My other friend and his wife circed their baby after thinking about it and decided they wanted their baby to be in a covenant with god or something. I asked them what their baby's penis had to do with his relationship with god, as I'm sure god doesn't care what the baby's penis looks like. Too late now, but I'd like to know because I'm curious and maybe it will come in handy in future discussions.

[joandsarah77]

I don't think we are alowed to talk about the Bible in TCAC board, I think you have to take it down to the religion board.
I am a Christian and don't know of any verse that says that though.

[carriebft]

There is no biblical basis for circumcision except for Jews (and then we arent talking about the bible). The new testament says that circumcision is no longer required for salvation. Others will come or PM you links, but this is the jist of the matter. If the second couple you speak of are Jewish (or muslim-- but then we aren't talking about the bible), then that is probably what they are talking about. If not, then they are misreading the new testament...again, I am sure more posters will come and/or pm you.

YOu may want to cross post in religious studies.

[fishface]

Well if this is inappropriate then my apologies and if a mod could please move it, it would be appreciated. I was just asking a specific question, not asking for a bible-related discussion.

Couple 1 is Catholic, couple 2 is Christian. PMs welcome.

[Dave2GA]

If you will google "catholics opposing circumcision" you will find some good information. CIRP also has good info in this regard. I think a search of "circumcision and Christianity" will find you all the quotes you need.

[Monkeygrrl]

this link has many pamphlets that you can print out or order...if you scroll down about 1/2 way, there are a couple of pamphlets specifically for christian and catholic parents...

peace...

[Juvysen]

this link was pretty informative

[jandc_hammond]

Here's a good link link (about halfway down the page)...http://www.catholic.com/library/infant_baptism.asp
And another one...
http://www.noharmm.org/christianparent.htm

[fishface]

Much appreciated, thanks everyone.

[melanie_rabbitbarn]

Hello,

Here are a few Scriptures to look at.
Acts 15--Circumcision was the Jewish covenant with God (more about that later), but in the beginning of the church, many 'gentile' (non-Jews) were also becoming Christians (Christianity started with Jews). Acts 15 details the debate and the binding decision on all churches that gentile Christians do not need to be circumcised (there was no decision on Jewish circumcision). This likely became a very important issue of difference/persecution between Jews and Christians.

The verse you are thinking of is likely Galatians 5:1-6, which in part says "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law [by circumcision]." Nice play on words--"you have been severed from Christ" when speaking of circumcision! Paul (who wrote Galatians) was pretty hot about this topic, and even said in verse 12, "I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves [or cut themselves off]!" Paul wrote Galatians to deal with Jewish Christians who were trying to tell the Gentile Christians that they must be circumcised, so the whole book of Galatians is really about the Christian's relationship to circumcision.

Regarding covenant with God, in Genesis 17, God established a covenant with Abram (Father of the Jews) that God would make his descendents into a great nation. The 'sign' of the covenant was circumcision. This covenant was only with the descendants of Abram! Which means Jews and Muslims. Many Christians mistakenly believe that they need to participate in this covenant, but the new covenant, I believe, is symbolized with baptism which both males and females can participate in.
A covenant is "a legally binding obligation, esp. of God for man's redemption." A covenant has stronger force than a contract because even if one party doesn't live up to the terms, the covenant is still on.


Hope this helps.
Melanie

[Microsoap]

The Dutch TV documentary (English subtitles) "Mother, Why Was I Circumcised?" will state the same about Muslims.

http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/

[Revamp]

Best article I have found:

http://vadimcherny.org/judaism/how_j...rcumcision.htm

Answer being "Less than you would think..."

Worth a read.

[Nitenites]

Another link...

http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/

I wonder how many popes were circ'd... probably not many, since they're all European!

[Fi.]

You know, I get why we can't talk about ACTUAL religious circumcision (i.e. Muslims and Jews) - I get that and it's fine.

But what I don't get is why we can't talk about people pretending that religion is their reason considering that QUITE TECHNICALLY, it's not a religious circumcision. It's people attempting to pass it off as one. I don't understand why we can't talk about THAT.

[captain crunchy]

Romans 2:26-29

If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

All of it is pertinent, but the bolded especially. Besides, Biblically, circumcision isn't a Christian tradition, but Jewish in my understanding.


Romans 4:9-11

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

This verse shows it really doesn't matter in terms of righteousness... so why do it???

1 Corinthians 7:19

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

He wasn't saying circumcision is cool, his point was, it is nothing to God... keeping his commands is what matters, not the state of your penis. Besides, God made your penis whole, why mess with that creation when we are created in God's image?

Galatians 5: 4-6 (I think this may be the passage you were thinking of but I am not sure)

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Hope that helps.... I am in favor of keeping children, all children, intact and whole as God created them.

[Jeanne D'Arc]

The old law was supposed to be 'fulfilled' in Jesus. Jesus even says that
" I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" this includes circumcision.

[captain crunchy]

The old law was supposed to be 'fulfilled' in Jesus. Jesus even says that
" I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" this includes circumcision.

TRANSITIVE VERB:
ful·filled , ful·fill·ing , ful·fills , also ful·fils
To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
To carry out (an order, for example).
To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
To bring to an end; complete.

Context is extremely important in that verse and I believe, based on ALL the other evidence of Jesus' works and words, and sacrifice on the cross -- that "fulfill" was said in the spirit of the bolded definition (more in the spirit of complete rather than bring to an end -- though both are applicable based on what He specifically says about specific subjects.)


There is nothing that is going to convince me that Jesus encourages me to cut off part of my child's genitalia -- especially since Scripture supports the fact that JESUS made circumcision irrelevant. In fact to the contrary, Jesus made the ultimate spilling of blood (in my belief system) so that I (or my newborn son, should I have any) wouldn't have to... in addition to clearly speaking about circumcision in the verses mentioned.

[captain crunchy]

PS: OP specifically asked for no debating... she is an ADVOCATE of leaving infants intact.

Unless of course, you were agreeing with me