Another circ derails breastfeeding...

[phatchristy]

OK, I am a part time breastfeeding counselor, and I'm getting so personally frustrated with moms calling me and describing the typical scenario.

"oh, baby was latching on just fine, no problems...for a couple days, then out of the blue woudn't latch on, super fussy, etc."

I'll ask, did anything happen during that time...?

The mom will generally be "no, can't think of anything."

And, I'll ask..."any medical procedures...separation...bottles...pacifiers?"

And, wouldn't you know it...

"oh, well he WAS circumcised." (oh, but you know they don't consider that to be a "medical procedure" because it's just a snip, nothing more than a vaccine or heel stick you know : .)

I have read the research, and it's clear that circumcision reduces the chance of breastfeeding success. What REALLY infuriates me is that women are not even given ANY clue as to this. It seems like the women I have talked to who have this scenario (sadly too many) have no clue that circumcision could interfere, and most seem to think that circumcision is about as traumatic than a vaccine/heel stick.

It's just sickening to me that hospitals are getting away with this sort of thing : . These little boys are being victimized on yet another level. : And, I'm flippin sick of hearing the women tell me that the nurses and hospital staff push for them to have the circ done, with no discussion or risk/complications and absolutely NO disclosure as to what actually happens during a circumcision. These moms "think" it's nothing. Because, if it was that bad you know, "they wouldn't do them." :

[Juvysen]

How is this not common knowledge?? :

[Frootloop]

Yep, I believe it

What you're describing was just like me. I mean, it almost perfectly describes our situation (with an added uterine infection that delayed us BF as well). It's so far beyond sickening to me that parents are NOT counseled on what this "quick snip" really is and all of the damage that can take place. And it really pisses me off that when they start having problems BF that the mamas are still not let on to one of the obvious reasons WHY it may be happening. The new mama might start doubting herself and much of the medical profession around her would rather her feel that way instead of telling her the TRUTH.

I didn't really know anything about circ and I wasn't counseled before my DS was circ'd (not that I can remember, anyway. I was pretty out of it). In fact, I don't even recall consenting to it at all. After it was done, it was simply treated as no big deal.. "it happens to all little boys". I also wasn't told that he would have quite a lot of pain afterward (unless they gave him pain meds in the hospital, he never got any from me).

Like you, it absolutely infuriates me that parents are not counseled on EVERYTHING before this is done to their sweet little baby boys. I truly can't understand how it is legal for them to do this without the parent's 100% informed consent. I know that that would decrease the amount performed.. which is most likely why they're usually not counseled :Puke

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by Frootloop

Yep, I believe it

What you're describing was just like me. I mean, it almost perfectly describes our situation (with an added uterine infection that delayed us BF as well). It's so far beyond sickening to me that parents are NOT counseled on what this "quick snip" really is and all of the damage that can take place. And it really pisses me off that when they start having problems BF that the mamas are still not let on to one of the obvious reasons WHY it may be happening. The new mama might start doubting herself and much of the medical profession around her would rather her feel that way instead of telling her the TRUTH.

Yep, and you know what happened. That is EXACTLY what happened. A new mom, being told then (instead of the correct reason) by her Pediatrician that "baby is getting frustrated because you don't have enough milk" so of course, the next day the baby starts getting formula...: .

This is just all more indirect ways that circ causes what should be a gentle beginning in this world to be filled with chaos, drama and sadness.

And, the thing is, these mamas have no clue how gentle and beautiful those newborn days should be : .

[phdmama06]

It is sad that it's not more common knowledge

It seems intuitive to me that putting a newborn baby through a painful, traumatic experience will interfere with the bonding between mother and baby, and consequently breastfeeding. I think the root of the problem is that these new mommies truly have no idea how violent circumcision is.

[Sheal]

Is it possible that a circ causing a lack of trust from baby to parent? Isn't baby\mama relationship built on trust? I mean we (general we, mainstream we) think that babies do not have the concept of trust. Personally, they may not have the complex vocabulary or words or the complex idea of trust in relationship situations but they do have instinctual concepts of trust.

It's like this (in my theory): Baby is doing well at the breast before a circ, then mama and papa circ (either due to pressures, mis information, lack there of, ect - insert whatever you want for the reasons), baby, on an instinctual level, thinks they did this to me, they let someone hurt me (of course this theory is based on palpable physical awareness on baby's part, which I totally believe they have) now how am I going to trust that it won't hurt when they do something with me (including bf'ing). Of course baby doesn't actually have this cognitive ability to word the instinctual feelings of lacking trust.

I don't know if I am making sense at all but it's hard to put to words. I'm not being crass, I am not judging parents who circ or have circ'ed that frequent these boards. It's not my place to judge, it's not my business. All I can do is inform others and leave them to make their informed choices (although, I do believe circ is a crass "procedure" and disgusting form of mutilation on the medical pro's heads for not informing or clinging to archaic "medical information").

Anywho, my question is, could it be that circ destroys a part of the bf'ing relationship by destroying a part of instinctual trust bonds in the relationship between baby and mother? I know if it were me being circ by my mom at the age I am (discounting actual ability to verbalize and cognitively distrust a person) I wouldn't trust my mom ever again, or lack a little less trust in her. KWIM?

[tammyswanson]

I'm not surprised, because my best friend was a nurse, she now works in a nursing library at a womens hospital and I was the one emailing HER about the risks of circ, the pain, the insanity of the whole thing! She's also pregnant as well, not sure what the sex is yet. I sent her videos, websites and all sorts of info to check out.

If SHE thought it was 'okay', then you can imagine the rest of the hospital people thinking it's 'just a snip'.

[savienu]

This is so frustrating. My son is not circ'd, but on his first day of life (while I was in the OR for a retained placenta), the nurses and the pediatrician on call hounded my DH to have him circ'd. When he said it wasn't going to happen, that was the end of it, they stopped. The next day, whenever I paged a nurse for help with nursing, EVERY SINGLE ONE asked me if he was circd. Obviously, it's a pretty common issue, but not one person mentioned that when they were busy with their sales pitch to my husband. It's so disgusting.

[SleeplessMommy]

Have you looked into teaching breastfeeding classes for expectant mothers? We took a 2 hour class before DS was born. With 2 hours of "captive audience", you would have plenty of time to explain that circ causes the baby to go into shock, and can damage/destroy the breastfeeding relationship.

This could be done through the hospital or independently.

[philomom]

I ran a new mother's support group for seven years when I lived in Atlanta. The majority of the mothers who "failed" at breastfeeding had boys (in a high circ area). It was so incredibly sad.

[basset]

And so it goes! : : : That poor baby boy.:

[fruitful womb]

I'm all too familiar with this scenario. Ds1 would arch his back every time I tried to latch him on the breast. I understand now what the deal was, didn't then. With determination to bf, (My way of saying how so sorry I was and wanted desperately to make it up to him) I ignored everyone's advice to ff. After feeling so violated and feeling my ds being completely robbed, of course he was violated too... I stuck to it. He was bf for 4 yrs. weened on his own.

I have a feeling the bf relationship lasted so long b/c he didn't trust anyone else but me and his way of making sure no one else would take him from his mommy meant to plug on the boobies for dear life!

This is one of the things that needs to be discussed and written on the Consent Forms. LLL use to have this information in their teaching leader's manual but it was then removed yrs later.

[savienu]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

I'm all too familiar with this scenario. Ds1 would arch his back every time I tried to latch him on the breast. I understand now what the deal was, didn't then. With determination to bf, (My way of saying how so sorry I was and wanted desperately to make it up to him) I ignored everyone's advice to ff. After feeling so violated and feeling my ds being completely robbed, of course he was violated too... I stuck to it. He was bf for 4 yrs. weened on his own.

Not to completely derail the subject but I have a feeling the bf relationship lasted so long b/c he didn't trust anyone else but me and his way of making sure no one else would take him from his mommy meant to plug on the boobies for dear life!

This is one of the things that needs to be discussed and written on the Consent Forms. LLL use to have this information in their teaching leader's manual but it was then removed yrs later.

I thought it was still mentioned through LLL? I know I've seen articles about it on the LLL site...

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by savienu

I thought it was still mentioned through LLL? I know I've seen articles about it on the LLL site...

Really? Thats very interesting. I asked a leader about this during the last meeting. She says its not written in the manuals. Although she did say they don't condone the practice. All the leaders in this group circ'd all their ds's. After hearing me rant with my big mouth to every mother there in the group, one of the leaders actually said, "If I could go back, I wouldn't have had it done." Shame. I simply took her word for it. I'll see if I can get a hold of one of the books and research this myself. As well research on their site. Thats really interesting, thanks for mentioning it.

[savienu]

Ok, this is the article I found about it: http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVOctNov00p94.html

Basically, they don't take a stance on circumcision but mention that "like any medical procedure" it can interfere with nursing in the early days. *Sigh* Better than nothing, I guess?

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

I'm all too familiar with this scenario. Ds1 would arch his back every time I tried to latch him on the breast. I understand now what the deal was, didn't then. With determination to bf, (My way of saying how so sorry I was and wanted desperately to make it up to him) I ignored everyone's advice to ff. After feeling so violated and feeling my ds being completely robbed, of course he was violated too... I stuck to it. He was bf for 4 yrs. weened on his own.

I knew another mother with the SAME determination. Her DS, same behavior, arching the back, fussy every time she tried to latch him on that second day. It was like night and day before and after the circ. He had breastfed beautifully from the start, and the circ derailed that. But this mom, well I don't even know that she would even "acknowledge" that there is an issue. Mainly because she managed to get through it.

She was absolutely against formula feeding and worked it out. She knew the *right people to call*, got the *right information about how to return babe to the breast* ....(she was determined as she'd bf her daughter) but how many new moms have that level determination honestly?

We all know what it's like out there these days...so many road blocks everywhere...

[savienu]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

I knew another mother with the SAME determination. Her DS, same behavior, arching the back, fussy every time she tried to latch him on that second day. It was like night and day before and after the circ. He had breastfed beautifully from the start, and the circ derailed that. But this mom, well I don't even know that she would even "acknowledge" that there is an issue. Mainly because she managed to get through it.

She was absolutely against formula feeding and worked it out. She knew the *right people to call*, got the *right information about how to return babe to the breast* ....(she was determined as she'd bf her daughter) but how many new moms have that level determination honestly?

We all know what it's like out there these days...so many road blocks everywhere...

Too bad she didn't have that kind of determination to protect her child from an unnecessary cosmetic procedure on her perfect newborn. :

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by savienu

Ok, this is the article I found about it: http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVOctNov00p94.html

Basically, they don't take a stance on circumcision but mention that "like any medical procedure" it can interfere with nursing in the early days. *Sigh* Better than nothing, I guess?

Actually I posted the information that they had in the 1981 edition about a year ago or so in lactavism...hmm...I bet I could go and look up that thread .

I think though, most women don't have a clue about LLL honestly. And, very few sadly go to the meetings BEFORE they give birth. And, as I've heard it does seem that certain hospitals in our area STILL circ.

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by savienu

Too bad she didn't have that kind of determination to protect her child from an unnecessary cosmetic procedure on her perfect newborn. :

You're right, but it's it amazing how many women can research everything about childbirth, pregnancy, breastfeeding etc. but not circ? :

I think some women are more focused on what is going to happen "to them" rather than the baby.

Does that make sense, I hate to generalize, but I think not all pregnant women treat that baby as some "precious soul" that they were entrusted with to guard and protect and do the best for.

I always used to think that other parents wanted "the best" for their children...but honestly, it seems like my parents and the parents who I know that are like this are more like rare jewels. We're old fashioned it seems...sometimes I feel like I am motherhood returning to normal, where it should be. What these people do out there these days...it's just some wacky trend.

[savienu]

It IS amazing, but I think that's a sign of how ingrained in our culture it is. I am the kind of person who researches EVERYTHING and I didn't give a second thought to circumcision at first, until I saw a thread about it on Livejournal. Granted, this was early in my pregnancy and I didn't know the gender yet, but the fact that I hadn't considered it at all as even something TO research before that point scares me, because I researched everything else. I thank God everyday that I saw that thread, or I don't know how things may have ended up for my son. :