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post #21 of 30
What I worried about with my first baby (I was GBS +, had a hospital birth, had abx) was not giving her GBS in labor, but indeed, transmitting it to her after birth. We all know how crazy that postpartum period is, and I'm sure I was not as diligent with handwashing as I could have been. I don't notice that GBS+ women are given extra instructions about post-birth hygiene, but couldn't we easily transmit it to the babe if we ran out of the bathroom to nurse and didn't wash thoroughly? Anybody know this?

Quote:
What else are homebirthers going to do? iv antibiotics are out of the question.
My HB midwives give IV abx.
post #22 of 30
Hello all,
I, too, was GBS + with all three of my pg. With no.1, the protocol was just to treat if there were risk factors (as outlined by a previous poster). My water was broken for almost 72 hrs before I birthed, so I did receive antibiotics. (hospital birth w/mw's)

With pg no.2, the protocol had changed and recommended tx for _all_ + moms. I was homebirthing this time around, but due to PROM with pg1 and the crazy long labor with no.1, I opted to have IV antibiotics on hand, in case I developed risk factors, but NOT to treat otherwise. If I had prolonged rupture of membranes, or some other risk factor, though, I wanted still to maintain the option of staying home, hence we had antibiotics and IV setup on hand. Happily, they were never used and I birthed baby no2 at home with no issues.

With pg no3, I was again + (tested in hopes of having a documented neg. on hand should we need to transfer... oh well!) and was homebirthing again. I opted for IV antibiotics on hand again, but had a super fast labor and birth, with rupture of membranes only minutes before the birth, so no abx were necessary or even possible! Now, this is where things get interesting.

On Wed after the birth on Mon, dd wouldn't nurse. I was very, very, very worried as to WHY she wouldn't nurse and wouldn't stay awake long enough to eat. I wasn't worried about latch, etc, as I'd been nursing 6 yrs and have enought knowledge/experience/support/resources to deal with nursing challenges, I was freaked as to *why* she wouldn't nurse.

Followed my instincts after much thought and worry and took her to ped. No fever, vitals good, baby alert (of course, once we're in the office!) etc. Says it may be difficulty latching due to milk just coming in, got a teeny bit dehydrated, therefore too tired to eat, vicious cycle, blah blah. Sent us home with syringe hookup to finger feed pumped breast milk. She eats well from that. Momentary relief. We pump and finger feed around the clock.

On Fri night, however, dd develops low grade fever. Oh SH*T. My worst nightmare starts to come true. After many calls, time undressed to see if she'd cool down, etc. we go to hospital due to fever. Sure enough, she has fever of 100.8. Staff is **astonished** that we realized so early that she had a fever since it's not all that high. We are **astonished** that they're astonished----- she's my baby! Like sublime birthgirl said, she's with me/ON me nearly 100% of the time- I KNOW her! How could I *not* realize she had a fever?!?! They just kept going on and on about how we were so sensitive and caught it so incredibly early, etc. Whatever.

They do the whole horrific workup (catheter, blood, spinal tap, chest XRay) and find significant infection in her spinal fluid. OH heavens, she has meningitis. Our world crumbled. : It was, of course, assumed that it was secondary to GBS infection, so while we waited for culture growth results to determine/confirm the source of infection, she was started on abs IV and antivirals. We were told to expect a minimum 2-3 week stay for IV antibiotics, possibly more depending on what complications she developed. (potentially many with GBS and meningitis)

She did amazingly well, and lo and behold, after 72 hrs of NO bacterial culture growth, it was decided by the Infectious Disease team that it must be viral meningits, not bacterial, and that it would be safer for her to recover with us at home!! (they acknowledged the risk of hospital borne infection-shock!-and told us to take her home! -----esp, since they knew we were **so unbelievably sensitive to our baby and would bring her back in a heartbeat if something changed!)

Anyway, one of my points is that I find it *very hard to believe that the OP's client whose baby had GBS meningitis was only hospitalized for 3 or 4 days. If it were truly known to be GBS infection, the *minimum* course of abx rec. is 2 weeks, sometimes 3. Did the baby go home with a central line and abx and nursing care??? (We escaped having a central line placed on our dd by mere hours before they decided to send us home........)

Why/how did they send a GBS ill baby home after 3 days? That seems bizarre and scary. Even I, who avoid abx like the plague, would not want to risk not completely killing the bacteria and having a relapse....... If you know definitively that a baby is ill with the bacteria, you have to make sure to kill it..... Could you please give more info on this, OP?????

I also just wanted to validate the excellent point you made, sublimebirthgirl, about catching something wrong in your baby before a hospital did. Every 4 hours?!?! Like that's vigilant monitoring??? If it had indeed been GBS that infected my dd, her chances of recovery were MUCH higher b/c we caught it so quickly and realized she was febrile so immediately. No hospital would have caught it so quickly, and we wouldn't have either if we parented differently. It was/is an amazing reinforcement to following your instincts and parenting the way we are meant to.

Sheesh, I've written a semi-coherent novel here! : Sorry to go on- there is just so much to the complex GBS equation that many people overlook, I think. It's scary, but it's not black and white. More abx in labor do not equal fewer sick and dead babies, but may well equal more sick moms (due to pennicillin allergic reactions) and may down the road equal much more virulent and resistant bacteria. So many shades of gray............

That's our experience. Hope it might help someone to read it, though I hope no one here experiences the horror of a really sick baby.

Looking forward to hearing more about the OPs client's baby.
TIA!
post #23 of 30
Ok, there are two different stories about clients whose babies developed GBS infections here, the OP's late-onset story and a subsequent early-onset story posted by Snork.

I'd like to think that I would catch a fever quickly, too. But the fact is, the client in Snork's story *was* sleeping next to her baby. The baby seemed "hot" and hadn't nursed since the middle of the night, but the mother did NOT identify this as feverish (granted, first baby, you don't know what to expect). The midwife, too, didn't hear any alarums as the client told her that baby hadn't nursed the second half of the night and seemed "hot."

Yes, a lot of moms would have realized their baby had a fever, and would have called for help earlier. But if *that* mom had been in the hospital, baby's fever would have been identified hours earlier, and it seems likely that earlier intervention and treatment would have saved baby's life. :-/

In the absence of risk factors, I absolutely WILL NOT consent to abx again, but this makes me feel a bit less hostile about the idea of going through the 48-hour observation period. I've got lots of time to decide, fortunately. I'd like to think I'd be one of those astonishingly sensitive moms who would pick up on the fever sooo quickly, but will I stake my baby's life on that? Hm.
post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=mama de dos;9324741]
Anyway, one of my points is that I find it *very hard to believe that the OP's client whose baby had GBS meningitis was only hospitalized for 3 or 4 days. If it were truly known to be GBS infection, the *minimum* course of abx rec. is 2 weeks, sometimes 3. Did the baby go home with a central line and abx and nursing care??? (We escaped having a central line placed on our dd by mere hours before they decided to send us home........)
Why/how did they send a GBS ill baby home after 3 days? That seems bizarre and scary. Even I, who avoid abx like the plague, would not want to risk not completely killing the bacteria and having a relapse....... If you know definitively that a baby is ill with the bacteria, you have to make sure to kill it..... Could you please give more info on this, OP?????

Sorry, I just caught up with the mom a few days ago and haven't been able to post. The answer is yes to all of the above-the baby was supposed to go home with a PICC line (a long term, surgically placed IV) and two weeks of antibiotics, but after several snafus and attempts that resulted in nothing but bruises all over the baby's arm, mom decided that a two week hospital stay was preferable to another placement attempt. She just had her follow up (baby is now just over a month old) with her regular ped, and the baby is a fat and happy 10 pounds.

Thanks, everyone, for your input! Mom and I had a nice debriefing, and have concluded that when the next baby happens along, that we likely won't do anything differently.
post #25 of 30
The use of antibiotics has already created problems as noted 'possible' by a pp: that is, we now have an ampicillin-resistant form of e. Coli (ampicillin is one of the major abx of choice for gbs prophylaxis). There are indeed fewer gbs infections in neonates; but there are MORE e. coli infections that are hard to touch with any abx.

Not to mention what I have watched happen with one of my recent clients: She chose to take oral abx during her final 2wks of pregnancy as she was gbs positive; no doubt it was still in effect for birth as she gave birth before she was even done w/her 2 wks of treatment. So, baby was fine (tho probably would have been anyway).

However--Mom was already a candida carrier...low grade it seemed, before the abx; I'd given her dietary/other advice for controlling the yeast and we planned to be vigilant as bfing commenced. But sure enough, her candida bloomed furiously in the weeks following the abx treatment....and of course, now she has major major thrush to the point that she can't bf without excruciating pain. She does pump--which also hurts, just less than nursing does--but is considering giving that up too because of the pain and inconvenience..and because she wants to take cleansing measures for the yeast which are not recommended for nursing one so young...nystatin has done nothing much for her. In the meantime (she is 7wks pp now), she also got a massive case of mastitis requiring MORE abx...well, duh, abx compromises the immune system as does candida. The blessing is that her baby is thriving, and has had no return of thrush symptoms himself.

Anyway. Antibiotics do have their place in anyone's pharmocopeia...for RARE use under drastic conditions! Our gross overuse of abx, especially as 'preventive' medicine, has indeed created superbugs beyond our control (amp. reisistant e.coli is but one of these), as well as having serious backlash in the form of systemic yeast overgrowth which itself causes a host of health problems.

We have not really changed anything, by treating gbs with prophylactic abx. That is, we have not made any overall improvement in maternal/infant health. We have only been as dogs chasing tail...and have seemed to 'solve' (or at least improve) one problem while meantime creating others.

I personally find CDC protocols on gbs to be too silly to consider useful in the least.
post #26 of 30
just wanted to say thanks jengacnm for sharing this experience. it's not often you hear about late onset GBS infection. sharing stories like this helps to keep us on our toes.
post #27 of 30
I would like to know if taking probiotics

1. has any effect in reducing the negative impact of antibiotics, if and when one does take them.
2. reduces the effect of the abx for their intended purpose.
post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheery View Post
I would like to know if taking probiotics

1. has any effect in reducing the negative impact of antibiotics, if and when one does take them.
2. reduces the effect of the abx for their intended purpose.
Not that this is exactly on-topic, but...

1. It reduces the negative impact of antibiotics on your gut flora. There are other negative impacts to the specific treatment of IV antibiotics during labor under discussion here, such as the discomfort of receiving the treatment, the "requirement" that mom check into the hospital "in time" to get her two doses 4 hours apart, etc.

2. The antibiotics are adminstered to kill a specific bacteria, but no one's figured out how to tell the abx that yet. ;-) The beneficial gut flora that get replenished by the probiotics are not the intended target of the antibiotic treatment. OTOH, if you take probiotics while still receiving antibiotic treatment, then you won't get much benefit from the probiotics, as they'll still be getting killed off by the antibiotics. Instead, to offset issues you can take sacchromyces boulardii, which is a yeast that helps regulate gut flora in some mysterious way that researchers haven't pinned down yet ;-) and isn't affected by antibiotics (since those kill bacteria).

Disclaimer: I'm not a birth or other health professional; I just read a lot. ;-) Bacteria for Breakfast by Dr. Kelly Dowhower Karpa is a great book about probiotics.
post #29 of 30
Thanks Monica for sharing. I am interested in the GBS issue and was actually advising a friend who tested GBS+ to bypass the abx but on further reading I am beginning to doubt. Anyway she has decided to take it so I am wondering what she can do to reduce risk.

Quote:
sacchromyces boulardii,
... any tips on where we can get that?
post #30 of 30
To the OP. Thanks for posting that story. It is leading me to reconsider my GBD choices this pg.

I still have one question... can you test positive and identify which strain you have? I read some of Henci Goer's books and she says that there are many strains of GBS that are resistant to non-penecillin abx but there aren't resistant strains to penecillin yet. Since I'm allergic to penecillin I would have to go with a non-penecillin abx. It sounds like for certain strains it won't matter since they need penecillin to get killed off. Does anyone else have anything on this. Can you be tested to see which strains you are positive with if you are positive? Knowing the possible benefit would be a useful thing to consider.
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