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can we talk about alienating c-sec moms, or moms who had epidurals? - Page 3

post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymoo View Post
I think a better song would be one that sang the praises of a natural homebirth rather than demonizing a surgical one.
:
ui like this idea much better than the posted song.
post #42 of 62
We are just not responsible for how others choose to interpret facts. The fact is that surgery is a suboptimal way to be born and that most surgeries are not for evidence based reasons. I know, I've had one for no reason and I read the perinatal data. The main reasons for c/s in Australia are previous c/s (yep, no evidence to support that one), breech (and again), twins (c'mon now people!). There are going to be isolated occasional women who fluke surgery because they really needed it. Most of us don't, it's just a fact.

We can't inhabit other's heads and know how they're going to receive things. Women will either be ready to hear it or not and if we "tone it down" or "make it widely acceptable" we're never going to push any boundaries and get through this constant violent assault against us and our babies. If I'm offended by something I look to myself first to see why I'm responding in that way. Let's take responsibility for our own actions in leading to surgery instead of blaming others for somehow creating some feeling in us. If you had surgery you really needed, why feel bad about it? Surgery exists for a reason and if you've needed to access it, and been able to access it, and it's saved your life and your babies life isn't that great? I'm very glad that two women I know have been able to access it for life saving reasons but of all the hundreds of women I know personally and the thousands I see online, they're the minority by a long shot.

The reality is that most c/s are unnecessary, dangerous, created through iatrogenic practices, inadequate support for women, money making and misogyny and until we accept that as birthworkers, and start telling it like it is, we may as well swim around in the same crap forever. We got to this position in birth because we were all taken by surprise at how efficiently the multinational medical juggernaut overtook us and because we've always played nice and tried to not offend even the most scalpel-happy surgeons who slice and dice us on a whim.

In the same way as breastfeeding is normal and optimal, so is birth. I don't understand why those of us in NFL or AP circles have such hypocritical attitudes to stating accurate information about the unnecessary use of artificial baby milk but we shy away from naming the reality of birth.

Do I feel bad when discussion about the risks and dangers of c/s occurs? Nope, not in the least. Why should I?? I had my c/s because my careprovider told me I needed it. I made that decision which I now know was a poor one. I therefore learnt a lot, processed a lot, took responsibility for my own actions and despite feeling sadness and regret over what my son and I missed out on, I moved on. I also still have some PTSD from some of it but that's my issue, I don't expect anonymous strangers on internet forums to read my mind and avoid my triggers. I also understand and place responsibility on my careprovider and our medicalised birth world where that responsibility exists. Women aren't "to blame" but if we keep whining about how reality "makes us feel bad" then we continue to blame ourselves instead of speaking out about a whole system which makes mincemeat of us.

You can't run a campaign of any kind which is going to make everyone happy and neither should you try. We need to get angry and understand the contexts in which our largely unnecessary surgeries occur instead of blaming activists for speaking the truth about them. I'm so tired of being criticised for "making women feel bad" when nothing I say can ever do anything like the damage that unnecesary major abdominal surgery has done to a woman and her baby who is also permanently altered for life and yet the surgeons who perpetrate this violence go scot free. At least if I speak the truth about birth I'm not continuing the lies we tell women and I can sleep at night with a clear conscience. All revolutions take truth speaking to get off the ground.

There is immense and tragic pain among so many of us over our birthing experiences and this violence won't stop until we cease to pander to surgeons by lying to women. But the anger and blame belong with the system that does the damage not the activists who are trying to save women's lives.
post #43 of 62
Personally, I dont offer any kind of comment to anyone unless they ask for it. I am pro birth CHOICE not pro natural birth. I think that if, knowing all the risks of everything, you choose a birth route that is different from mine, you should be able to do so without any type of criticism. There is so much information out there. My only issue is with people who are defensive to the extreme about their decision without ever having picked up a book or searched the net for information about it. Or worse yet, those who just feel "so and so doc knows whats best for me, s oI will choose to remain oblivious in the face of any amount of information that I learn".

Be in charge of your birth, make the decision with the best information available, and do what is right for YOU. Thats all.

I dont have friends really so there's not much issue with me having my opinions. But I know that people who want to hear what I have to say will ask, and I dont waste my time trying to explain to those who dont want to hear it, ya know?
post #44 of 62
Quote:
I think a better song would be one that sang the praises of a natural homebirth rather than demonizing a surgical one.
:


I agree that there IS a revolution taking place. At least I hope so.

I do think it's hard to talk about natural birth without alienating mothers who had mainstream/surgical birth experiences. I visit another board that is very mainstream and my viewpoints tend to be in the minority. When the news story about maternal mortality being on the rise came out recently there was a BIG discussion that got rather heated. The general consensus was that interventions are overused--however almost everyone who used those interventions were convinced that their situation was the exception, that their birth somehow required them. Of course if you examine those situations, often times interventions begat interventions. But you can't say that, because it's blaming the mother for something she can't change now.

There seems to be a group that would rather stay in the dark and think that OBs "couldn't do it unless it was safe." They've been planning on an epidural since day one and don't WANT to hear that it might carry some risks they didn't know about. They don't WANT to know that OB/GYNs aren't practicing evidence-based medicine, because acknowledging that would mean facing the fact that they might NOT be able to trust the almighty doctor that they've been raised to practically hero-worship. And that's a scary place to be, because what are you gonna do now? Chances are that they've also been raised to think that birthing outside of a hospital setting is "dangerous" and "reckless" so they feel stuck. There's a major paradigm shift involved, major education to take place once you reach this point.

Jen
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
I read through the whole Sept c-section support thread this morning. I can't say it really "clued me in" to something new. It's a sampling of what you see out in world, I think.
lol, well, i wouldnt really know what's "out in the world"... as i live in my own little world. all i ask is that when people consider statistics, they also consider contexts-- or, the people behind the statistics.

that's me speaking as a statistic. :

imo, if you're sensitive to that, you're good with me.
post #46 of 62
Quote:
personally, i've no problem with someone advocating natural childbirth. what i do have a problem with is anyone who has an attitude that anyone who has a c-s (or epi, or any other intervention) didnt want a natural birth badly enough.
or didn't try hard enough ...

YEP
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanetF View Post
We are just not responsible for how others choose to interpret facts. The fact is that surgery is a suboptimal way to be born and that most surgeries are not for evidence based reasons. I know, I've had one for no reason and I read the perinatal data. The main reasons for c/s in Australia are previous c/s (yep, no evidence to support that one), breech (and again), twins (c'mon now people!). There are going to be isolated occasional women who fluke surgery because they really needed it. Most of us don't, it's just a fact.

We can't inhabit other's heads and know how they're going to receive things. Women will either be ready to hear it or not and if we "tone it down" or "make it widely acceptable" we're never going to push any boundaries and get through this constant violent assault against us and our babies. If I'm offended by something I look to myself first to see why I'm responding in that way. Let's take responsibility for our own actions in leading to surgery instead of blaming others for somehow creating some feeling in us. If you had surgery you really needed, why feel bad about it? Surgery exists for a reason and if you've needed to access it, and been able to access it, and it's saved your life and your babies life isn't that great? I'm very glad that two women I know have been able to access it for life saving reasons but of all the hundreds of women I know personally and the thousands I see online, they're the minority by a long shot.

The reality is that most c/s are unnecessary, dangerous, created through iatrogenic practices, inadequate support for women, money making and misogyny and until we accept that as birthworkers, and start telling it like it is, we may as well swim around in the same crap forever. We got to this position in birth because we were all taken by surprise at how efficiently the multinational medical juggernaut overtook us and because we've always played nice and tried to not offend even the most scalpel-happy surgeons who slice and dice us on a whim.

In the same way as breastfeeding is normal and optimal, so is birth. I don't understand why those of us in NFL or AP circles have such hypocritical attitudes to stating accurate information about the unnecessary use of artificial baby milk but we shy away from naming the reality of birth.

Do I feel bad when discussion about the risks and dangers of c/s occurs? Nope, not in the least. Why should I?? I had my c/s because my careprovider told me I needed it. I made that decision which I now know was a poor one. I therefore learnt a lot, processed a lot, took responsibility for my own actions and despite feeling sadness and regret over what my son and I missed out on, I moved on. I also still have some PTSD from some of it but that's my issue, I don't expect anonymous strangers on internet forums to read my mind and avoid my triggers. I also understand and place responsibility on my careprovider and our medicalised birth world where that responsibility exists. Women aren't "to blame" but if we keep whining about how reality "makes us feel bad" then we continue to blame ourselves instead of speaking out about a whole system which makes mincemeat of us.

You can't run a campaign of any kind which is going to make everyone happy and neither should you try. We need to get angry and understand the contexts in which our largely unnecessary surgeries occur instead of blaming activists for speaking the truth about them. I'm so tired of being criticised for "making women feel bad" when nothing I say can ever do anything like the damage that unnecesary major abdominal surgery has done to a woman and her baby who is also permanently altered for life and yet the surgeons who perpetrate this violence go scot free. At least if I speak the truth about birth I'm not continuing the lies we tell women and I can sleep at night with a clear conscience. All revolutions take truth speaking to get off the ground.

There is immense and tragic pain among so many of us over our birthing experiences and this violence won't stop until we cease to pander to surgeons by lying to women. But the anger and blame belong with the system that does the damage not the activists who are trying to save women's lives.
excellent post Janet....somehow you always manage to put the thoughts that are swimming around in my head into clear, concise words.....
post #48 of 62
I also think that it depends on who our audience is.

If we're talking to politicians or care-providers, let's use strong language. If we're talking to moms on a grassroots level, let's use compassion and guide them to good information. They will do with it what they will.

But I feel it is my responsibility to at least let them know that the information is out there. It certainly isn't my place to judge individual women. It is more effective to address the societal ill.
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenlaana View Post
Personally, I dont offer any kind of comment to anyone unless they ask for it. I am pro birth CHOICE not pro natural birth. I think that if, knowing all the risks of everything, you choose a birth route that is different from mine, you should be able to do so without any type of criticism. There is so much information out there. My only issue is with people who are defensive to the extreme about their decision without ever having picked up a book or searched the net for information about it. Or worse yet, those who just feel "so and so doc knows whats best for me, s oI will choose to remain oblivious in the face of any amount of information that I learn".

Be in charge of your birth, make the decision with the best information available, and do what is right for YOU. Thats all.

I dont have friends really so there's not much issue with me having my opinions. But I know that people who want to hear what I have to say will ask, and I dont waste my time trying to explain to those who dont want to hear it, ya know?


Not everyone wants natural birth. I didn't, but my stupid hospital doesn't do epidurals, which I think is the one thing that moght've perevented my c-section.

As far as condolences on a c-section it depends on your tone. I had some people say "Oh I'm sorry" becasue, well, I had to have surgery, and that isn't fun. Yes, it was birth, and they'd already said congratualtions on that. I mean, if I had a vaginal birth, and had lots of stitches, I'd expect sympathy, right? I also had women tell me I was lucky. Yeah, it was still a great birth and all, and I have the world's most beautiful child, but the recovery was horrendous. And I still went thru a very very painful labour. Not so much lucky!

I would be more interested in natural birth next time since it was pushed on me to some extent last time, I don't have too much choice but to go with it. That is assuming I'd attmept a vbac, which is not likely.

ETA: I just clicked the link for the song, but wished I hadn't. I didn't even read it all. It's very offensive, and intened to be. Only a really judgmental person would write it, and ti at the very least should never be forwarded to epople who might not share her views.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
Whenever a friend tells me she had a c-section, I usually offer my condolences
To expand a bit (and shamelessly quote myself):

I offer condolences to my friends, that is, women I know very well, whose birth stories I know well. Some of my friends were wanting a home birth. Some, a natural birth in a hospital. Additionally I used the quantifier "usually" in hopes to imply that I don't always and automatically blurt out, "I'm sorry," and certainly not to women I don't know well.
post #51 of 62
People who are uncomfortable/insecure with there choices (elective c-section, FF, vaxing, circing, etc) are the ones I notice that are quick to get offended when someone points outs the potential negative outcomes that can arise from them.

Generally, I find that if a person made informed decisions or did what was medically necessary, don't get all up in arms with confronted with information that goes against their choices.

For example, women who TRULY CANNOT breastfeed don't get upset when the walk into a convo about the health benefits of breast-feeding. Those who decided to FF because BF is yucky or because they didn't think it would make much difference are always "offended" by that kind of talk.

I find myself emphasizing the positive as much as possible and avoid putting down the other choice if I can. Like someone mentioned, talking about how wonderful I want my homebirth to be as opposed to how desperately I want to avoid a hospital birth and all that goes with it. This seems to only make my new mommy friends shift in their seats a bit without getting upset enough to vocalize it.
post #52 of 62
Quote:
People who are uncomfortable/insecure with there choices (elective c-section, FF, vaxing, circing, etc) are the ones I notice that are quick to get offended when someone points outs the potential negative outcomes that can arise from them.

Generally, I find that if a person made informed decisions or did what was medically necessary, don't get all up in arms with confronted with information that goes against their choices.
I do agree there -- espcailly with BF vs FF -- however when you get in to birth ... it gets more gray -- turst me i was there and it is still very gray to me personally

a lot of it, as has been stated and restated is approach.

I had a medical birth that i did not want but needed -- and i had read, hired a doula, changed providers, used an independant MW, taken Bradely classes, had a 6 page birth plan, had a birth binder, coached DH on the slippy slope of interventions..... with each step of the way we delayed the intevention an hour or two, tried everythign ANYONE could think of that was natural and so n on .... we needed the medical birth we had. that does not mean i chose it, or that i wanted it, or that i am happy about it.

I am not offnded when people say interventions are over used, they are, I am not bothered by -- in fact i engage in -- promotion of more education, more prep work, of knwoing what you are chooseing or not chooseing.

i am hurt very much when people act like they are always elective, or always chosen, or that moms end up with them because they were not educated or didn't plan or try or prep well enough, and i am very hurt when i frequently enocunter the "well if you had birthed at home" or "well next time UC then that won't happen again" or "you pushed 3 hours, you should have kept pushing..." THAT is what is offensives and just plain mean and hurtful.

Education IS the key -- but realistically we have to remember even with education, and prep and doulas and mw attended births -- some births will remain medical .... and we have to remember THAT is very hard for the moms in qwuestions.

Personally i think my medical birth if harder on me because i DID prep for something else, than it would have been to walk in off the street, and just get Pit and an Edpidural and whatever cuz "well that is what it is like" THEN I think i would be happy with my BE ....
post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma Aimee View Post
I do agree there -- espcailly with BF vs FF -- however when you get in to birth ... it gets more gray -- turst me i was there and it is still very gray to me personally

a lot of it, as has been stated and restated is approach.

I had a medical birth that i did not want but needed -- and i had read, hired a doula, changed providers, used an independant MW, taken Bradely classes, had a 6 page birth plan, had a birth binder, coached DH on the slippy slope of interventions..... with each step of the way we delayed the intevention an hour or two, tried everythign ANYONE could think of that was natural and so n on .... we needed the medical birth we had. that does not mean i chose it, or that i wanted it, or that i am happy about it.

I am not offnded when people say interventions are over used, they are, I am not bothered by -- in fact i engage in -- promotion of more education, more prep work, of knwoing what you are chooseing or not chooseing.

i am hurt very much when people act like they are always elective, or always chosen, or that moms end up with them because they were not educated or didn't plan or try or prep well enough, and i am very hurt when i frequently enocunter the "well if you had birthed at home" or "well next time UC then that won't happen again" or "you pushed 3 hours, you should have kept pushing..." THAT is what is offensives and just plain mean and hurtful.

Education IS the key -- but realistically we have to remember even with education, and prep and doulas and mw attended births -- some births will remain medical .... and we have to remember THAT is very hard for the moms in qwuestions.

Personally i think my medical birth if harder on me because i DID prep for something else, than it would have been to walk in off the street, and just get Pit and an Edpidural and whatever cuz "well that is what it is like" THEN I think i would be happy with my BE ....
:

well said.
post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrodjm View Post
People who are uncomfortable/insecure with there choices (elective c-section, FF, vaxing, circing, etc) are the ones I notice that are quick to get offended when someone points outs the potential negative outcomes that can arise from them.

Generally, I find that if a person made informed decisions or did what was medically necessary, don't get all up in arms with confronted with information that goes against their choices.

For example, women who TRULY CANNOT breastfeed don't get upset when the walk into a convo about the health benefits of breast-feeding. Those who decided to FF because BF is yucky or because they didn't think it would make much difference are always "offended" by that kind of talk.

I find myself emphasizing the positive as much as possible and avoid putting down the other choice if I can. Like someone mentioned, talking about how wonderful I want my homebirth to be as opposed to how desperately I want to avoid a hospital birth and all that goes with it. This seems to only make my new mommy friends shift in their seats a bit without getting upset enough to vocalize it.
i still disagree. my c/s was medically necessary, but if someone started telling me that it was probably unnecessary and harmful to my baby, why would that not annoy me? getting annoyed/angry/upset doesn't automatically mean defensive and unsure about my choices. if i perceive someone as spouting misinformation that directly challenges me and my personal situation, how could i not be offended?

to bring this around back to the OP, i think the best way for anyone to approach the high c/s rate is with an open mind. because, we don't have the answers yet, and to think you do is presumptuous. i'm all for a discussion about thoughts/possibilities, but anyone who starts leveling the "THIS IS WHY" kind of attitude just turns me off. we all have to acknowledge that the WHO was just leveling their best guess at what c/s rates should be. it's not a proven fact, just a starting point.

and as far as epidurals go, that's even more grey. they're really, IMO, an issue of personal choice. in my experience, i know that when i talk with moms-to-be about the epidural, i try to watch my language to not be too positive about my experience. i've heard that mine was a-typically wonderful, and i don't want to give women the idea that every epidural will be as perfect as mine. what i usually do is relate my experience, and then say from what i've heard, it's not the norm. women can do with it what they will.

and finally (can you tell DD is napping now ), gumby, it was only the part about "loss" that offended me in your original post. i didn't experience any loss. however, i agree that if you know someone and you're certain they feel a loss over their c/s (and they've said it since they gave birth. they might have changed their minds between pre-birth and when you talk to them about what would be a loss), then condolences would of course be appropriate.

wow, this might have been my longest post ever!
post #55 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBZ View Post
I remember fighting tooth and nail to prove that my c/s birth was just as good as their unmedicated one, especially since the end result is what is ultimately most important.
I don't agree here. I know that sound terrible, but I don't agree that the end result is more important than how one got there. Was it better for me to have my medically unnecessary c/s just to avoid the minute chance that my ds might have had an SD and then end up with a mom who is so disconnected from her own son she might as well be a stranger? I'd give anything to get back the year of my son's life that I lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellymama View Post
i had a c-section and i am pretty okay with it for all the reasons you shared. but i am okay with someone saying they are sorry. i wouldn't think that they think they are better than me or anything weird like that.i would think they were a kind person trying to be nice to me.
Totally....and for me it would be a breath of fresh air to have some acknowledge the fact that all was not well. It would have been nice, for once, not to explain why one might be upset or traumatized as a result of their c/s, even when others may have seen the doctor as the *savior* in my particular case. Most often when I or one of my family members share that perspective with others we're looked at like we have 3 heads!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aweynsayl View Post
i think maybe if each person who considers themselves an advocate for natual childbirth would take some time and read some of the posts in one of the c-s threads here on mdc (handy link here), they might find themselves... enlightened... or something.
Speaking as one who has had a c/s (and still dealing with it 2 1/2 yrs later) I would like to gently remind you that while the thread(s) you are referring to may very well be applicable to yourself or others who share your same perspective, not every c/s mama fits in that thread (I know I don't) and not everyone shares the same perspective of c-sectsion in general...even after having gone through one.

*sigh* OP - I still love the song!!
post #56 of 62
The song doesn't offend me at all, I agree completely. My 2 c/s born boys were treated so reverently by everyone involved and neither experienced any separation from me. Except for being born surgically, they had the greatest start. My 2 hb boys did not. I am one of the ones that somebody said made "informed decisions." I had 2 planned hb's and then 2 cesareans. I had a rare disaster (SD) with my second birth, and my baby's life was lost and mine was almost lost. The fact that I am still alive and have gone on to have healthy children is so wonderful to me that I am not at all upset about how they had to get here.

I am still supportive of natural birth above all, and I also would never question or judge anyone's birth. Nobody should feel like they have to explain anything to anybody, and nobody should feel second class as a natural mama because of their birth. I know ladies who went UC and then take antidepressants and use IUD's. I know c/s mamas who do only NFP for birth control and take only omega 3's for pp blues. There are all kinds of degrees of natural, but if a person is informed and is making their own decisions (not out of fear, but out of love) and is treated with respect by their attendants (if they have them), then IMo they will feel much better about everything.
post #57 of 62
i still disagree. my c/s was medically necessary, but if someone started telling me that it was probably unnecessary and harmful to my baby, why would that not annoy me? getting annoyed/angry/upset doesn't automatically mean defensive and unsure about my choices. if i perceive someone as spouting misinformation that directly challenges me and my personal situation, how could i not be offended?

Yeah, no kidding that would annoy you. But may I ask who the heck are you talking to?!? Seriously, are these people your friends? Or is this a hypothetical situation? Are you saying that people you know have come out and told you that your c/s was unnecessary and harmful to your baby? And were they at all familiar with your personal situation?

I do know that some people have no tact, but personally I find that to be the exception to the rule. Even here at MDC on the UC board, where I think you can count us as pretty die-hard "natural birth advocates" we don't hound mothers who have had c-sections. I've yet to see someone do anything but ask questions of an individual mother. But come out blatantly state that her c-section was unnecessary? No.
post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]
Yeah, no kidding that would annoy you. But may I ask who the heck are you talking to?!? Seriously, are these people your friends? Or is this a hypothetical situation? Are you saying that people you know have come out and told you that your c/s was unnecessary and harmful to your baby? And were they at all familiar with your personal situation?
the 'birth song' was the specific example i was thinking of (or anyone who would forward it along). but, much of the natural childbirth literature comes out and says the same things... ever read silent knife?

this kind of thing not always so apparent as someone saying that my c/s could have been prevented (and yes, i've gotten it flat-out, and i've gotten the implication ETA: not here on MDC, i mean real life.). when someone on MDC posts that her sister's friend is going to be INDUCED (oh the horror!) and will probably have an epidural... and sigh, of COURSE she had a c/s, what did she expect when she hired a surgeon to deliver her baby?!
...well, it's pretty obvious that whether they realize they're doing it or not, they're pointing some fingers. or at least, i think it's obvious.

i know i should just stay away from birth and beyond.... i really don't fit in here.
post #59 of 62
when someone on MDC posts that her sister's friend is going to be INDUCED (oh the horror!) and will probably have an epidural... and sigh, of COURSE she had a c/s, what did she expect when she hired a surgeon to deliver her baby?!

Well, frankly, it IS horrific when someone gets an unnecessary induction. And it IS horrific when it escalates to the point of unnecessary major surgery. And when it happens in your own circle of friends, it's understandingly upsetting, and most people want to talk about it. Since none of that applies to you, why do you find it offensive that women speak out against unnecessary meddling? Surely, you can't be FOR unnecessary meddling with birth?

Kat
post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by KellMcK View Post
I have the utmost respect and admiration for mamas who home birth - it takes a very strong and well-educated woman (in my opinion) to have a home birth. I also assume that you have to be 100% in tune with your body and your baby. I'll be honest with you - until I came to MDC, I had no idea that a home birth was even an option. Even now, as a first time mom, I wouldn't have had the confidence or education to experience a home birth.
May I just say that this makes me laugh? I'm having a HBA3C sometime this month (most likely...maybe early Nov.). I'm not doing it because I'm confident or strong - I'm doing it because I would slit my own wrists before I'd let them bully me into another "elective" repeat c-section. I'm doing it because I can't think of anything that terrifies me more at this point in my life than walking back into a hospital as a pregnant woman (I'm not sure I could bring myself to even visit someone while visibly pregnant). I don't have anywhere near the guts it would take to walk back through those doors...so I'm not.
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