Sharing Belongings

[mammal_mama]

My friend's 2 children are now spending 2 days a week at my house while she works. It's especially nice for my oldest (who's 7), who loves playing with them. Like us, they homeschool, so they're with us all day.

On the issue of toy-sharing, I've always encouraged dd to put away anything she doesn't want to share. I don't believe in forcing her to share; I simply talk with her about how it makes others feel if they're at her house seeing her enjoy something they can't enjoy.

Dd is totally accepting of this. Now, when my friend's children come over, dd's decided she won't turn on her computer or play games on it, because she wants it to be off-limits for her friends -- especially for the 11yo who'd rather play computer games than play with her.

Dh doesn't want anyone but him or myself on the computer that he and I use -- and those are the only 2 computers we have. So last week I just let the boys know dd wanted her computer left off. The younger boy was fine with this, the older one wasn't.

Since my friend has recently separated from her husband, she and the boys have been in their own apartment with no computer or TV. The 11yo used to play computer games A LOT.

I'm wondering if I should talk a little with dd about how her friend feels about hardly ever getting any computer time, to see if she'd like to work out some kind of an arrangement with him while he's here-- but I'm not sure if it's a good idea.

The day before the day when dd kept the computer off, 11yo basically played computer games non-stop for about 6 hours. Dd was busy doing other stuff, but when she wanted to get on, he was ignoring her, so I told him to go ahead and finish the game he was playing, and then it was dd's turn.

Well, I guess it made him mad that he had to get off, and that dd was kind of standing over him nagging him (but I don't see why it bugged him, 'cause he was perfectly able to tune everything out before that). So, when he finished his game, he shut down the computer, which made dd mad.

Of course, it's pretty easy just to start it back up again. But dd really didn't want to. She followed him downstairs to play with him.

On the one hand, I think this whole babysitting thing might be easier if dd continues to keep the computer turned off. On the other hand, it concerns me that she seems to think her friends are here to just do exactly what she wants. Of course, both boys know it's okay to tell dd no if they want to do something different than what she's doing. And they do say no sometimes.

It's just, with the 11yo, computer is about all he wants to do. That and some TV. He actually irritated me later on in the computer-free day, by walking up to the TV when my 2yo and I were watching a movie, and pushing some buttons to make the movie play with commentary. I'm kind of non-technical, so it took me a minute to figure out how to change it back.

I was just annoyed that he did it without even asking. I guess he doesn't really have anything to do that he wants to do, if there's no TV or computer for him to take over. I mentioned some books we had that I thought he'd like, but he wasn't interested.

My friend doesn't plan on getting TV/computer anytime soon, because she kind of likes being without it. So maybe if dd wants to keep leaving her computer off, I should stay out of it and let the 11yo de-tox and get new interests?

When I asked dd how she'd feel if she were the one visiting -- she truthfully pointed out that she doesn't care about TV/computer when she has friends to play with. Since she enjoys playing with the 11yo, I think it's hard for her to conceptualize that he may feel differently about playing with a 7yo.

[MommaCrystal]

If I were you computer would be shut off when those children are in your company.

First because DD wants it that way. Second, I don't think its healthy for a child to spend his entire day in front of a screen of any kind. And third, as the parent of the child who is babysitting I would appreciate it either.

I would start getting creative and finding other activities that this child might enjoy.

[mammal_mama]

Thanks, MommaCrystal! It's good to have some feedback: I'll stop feeling guilty about letting dd decide whether she wants her computer on or off. I normally just let dd communicate with her friends herself about these issues -- only the 11yo doesn't seem to think a 7yo has the "right" to "be the boss of" her own stuff. In the past when she's told him she wants it left off, he's gone ahead and turned it on, anyway. So I always have to back her up with him.

We do have books, toys, various board games, art supplies, and a big yard (and of course either boy is free to bring his own stuff from home if he doesn't like what we have). As far as me being creative -- I think the height of creativity is just making a variety of stuff available and letting kids decide, for themselves, what to do with their day (it works for my kids!). That frees them to be the creative ones.

[lesley&grace]

Because the computer belongs to your DD, then yes she should get to dictate whether or not it's on when you have company or she has a friend over.

Here is my issue with that though...the word "company". From what I understood from your post is that you are providing childcare for these boys. To me, a daycare teacher for 6 years and as someone who also provided in-home childcare, as well as someone who grew up using in-home childcare while my mom was at work...these children are no longer company, or friends over for the day. They are a part of the household on those days, in my honest opinion.

Especially because they are homeschooled, it cannot be easy for them to be away from their mom 2 days a week. Being treated as guests cannot be making this transition any easier.

As such, it's obvious that this boy needs something that he's not getting. The little movie stunt was an obvious cry for your attention. He is an 11 year old boy, and really it's not fair for him to have to "take orders" from a 7 year old girl. To be told what he can and cannot play with, especially since he's not over for a playdate. And if that is the expectation, that he is there as your dd's friend, you can expect more acting out. I know from my own experience that I hated being at my sitter's house when I was being ordered about by children younger than myself, and being reminded that I was a guest. It was a hurtful, made me feel like I was unwelcome.

Maybe you should look into getting a few items that are just for their use while they are in your home, maybe a handheld gaming system (you may even be able to find something on freecycle or buy used), or whatever else they might be into in order for them to feel like they have a little bit more control in the situation.

That's my honest take on things.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by lesley&grace

Here is my issue with that though...the word "company". From what I understood from your post is that you are providing childcare for these boys. To me, a daycare teacher for 6 years and as someone who also provided in-home childcare, as well as someone who grew up using in-home childcare while my mom was at work...these children are no longer company, or friends over for the day. They are a part of the household on those days, in my honest opinion.

and

As such, it's obvious that this boy needs something that he's not getting. The little movie stunt was an obvious cry for your attention. He is an 11 year old boy, and really it's not fair for him to have to "take orders" from a 7 year old girl. To be told what he can and cannot play with, especially since he's not over for a playdate. And if that is the expectation, that he is there as your dd's friend, you can expect more acting out. I know from my own experience that I hated being at my sitter's house when I was being ordered about by children younger than myself, and being reminded that I was a guest. It was a hurtful, made me feel like I was unwelcome.

I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like he's really at your house to be babysat, not to play with your dd. Of course it's wonderful when the kids will play together but at his age maybe he needs some time by himself or in activities other than playing.

I think it also might help if you explained the computer rules to him. Even though it's your dd's computer, you are the childcare provider.

[mammal_mama]

Lesley, I think he does have some sort of hand-held gaming system, which he brought over one day. And of course, his gaming system was treated as his own to play with, or share if he so desired (he liked letting dd use it so he could play on her computer).

In our household, family members do each have some private items -- and we have a choice as to whether we want to share those items -- so in that sense the boys are treated as part of the household.

Of course, our 7yo keeps quite a bit of her private belongings and projects in her own room, where our 2 1/2 yo only has access when our 7yo invites her in (and our 2 1/2 yo is indisputably part of the household!).

In the same way, as I've already said, dd understands that it can be hurtful to be in someone else's home, and watch your host playing with something she won't share with you. So she puts up stuff she doesn't want to share: it's just not practical to disconnect and box up her computer every time she wants it left off. So it's tormentingly out in plain view.

I've always wanted to be the kind of neighborhood mom who treats everyone like part of the household, and says, "Make yourself at home, help yourself to what's in the fridge, yada-yada." What I'm finding is that I also have to take my family's needs into consideration -- which means that since we have limited funds for groceries, I can't just let my friend's boys rummage through our kitchen and eat/drink whatever they want.

My friend occasionally sends enough food to maybe cover one snack -- but of course in an 11-hour period (they come early in the morning before having had breakfast), they get hungry for 2 full meals and about 2-3 snacks. That's way more than the one-serving container of yogurt she sent for each boy last week. So I give them cereal and milk for breakfast, and offer water for drinks after that.

I always make something available for unlimited munching. Last week, we had plenty of bread so I made some peanut-butter and honey sandwiches, cut them into squares, and stored them in a ziplock for the kids to help themselves to whenever they got hungry. Apples were also available, and one day I also made oatmeal cookies. I think they still got rather hungry, 'cause I didn't have whatever they were hungry for.

My friend makes barely more than minimum wage at her full-time job, and can't really afford to pay for childcare. Extended family help out with some of the care, and part of the time they've been staying home on their own (at almost 12 and almost 7, they seem to do okay with this).

I extended an invitation for them to come hang out with us 2 days a week if they want to, and so far they've wanted to come -- but I suppose if either or both weren't happy, their mom would let them stay home.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like he's really at your house to be babysat, not to play with your dd. Of course it's wonderful when the kids will play together but at his age maybe he needs some time by himself or in activities other than playing.

While I certainly don't expect either child to play if they don't want to -- and dd also enjoys some alone time when friends are over for long periods -- I guess you could say the main thing I'm "getting out of" their coming is that it meets some of the needs of my highly extraverted homeschooler.

I'm not asking for (or getting) any pay; if having them over becomes more of a drain than a help to my family, I'll probably have to give my friend a couple of week's notice so she can make other arrangements.

Of course, my purpose is also to help out my friend and give her boys a little change of scene. I don't want to sound totally self-centered: I'm seeing this as a way to help them out while also helping my dd. I certainly don't want this to become a coercive situation for anyone -- not for my friend's boys, not for us.

I think it also might help if you explained the computer rules to him. Even though it's your dd's computer, you are the childcare provider.

We don't have computer rules. Dd plays on it when she wants. Our 2 1/2 yo still has little or no interest in the computer: if and when she gets interested, dh will probably set her up with her own computer.

[mamaduck]

This sounds to me like a fairly difficult day for the eleven year old, and I am inclined to be sympathetic toward him. But it sounds as if he can always choose to stay home, if he'd rather? So he must like coming.

I think its hard that your dd retains the right to control the computer day-to-day. I think I would ask her to be consistant about how she shares, or does not share, so that the boy can feel clear about the expectations. It must be hard for him to be told that he can play for 6 hours one day, play only in exchange for his gameboy another day, and not play at all another day -- all based on the whim of your much-younger dd. That is a lot of power for your dd to exert over children who really have become part of your household in many ways.

I also allow my children to put special toys away when friends come over, but there are certain items that I have flat out determined must be shared. For instance, books on the bookshelf are for anyone to read (provided they are careful, of course.) Videos and DVDs cannot be hoarded.... one child might well "own" a particular movie, but guests and other family members are allowed to watch it too. Board games and yard toys are activities that are meant for sharing -- it would be silly to stash those away, and I'm pretty clear on the expectation that they be shared. IMO, the computer that my two children share falls into this catagory as well. When friends visit, I allow them time on the computer if they want it, and if there are disputes about the amount of time spent on it -- we work those problems out in way that satisfies everyone involved.

If I were in your shoes, I would probably allow this boy "limited" access to the computer. An hour or two a day. IMO, this would solve a lot of the social problems that both children are encountering.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

This sounds to me like a fairly difficult day for the eleven year old, and I am If I were in your shoes, I would probably allow this boy "limited" access to the computer. An hour or two a day. IMO, this would solve a lot of the social problems that both children are encountering.

That's exactly what I was going to suggest. Set a specific time limit that he can use the computer daily, and that's it.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

While I certainly don't expect either child to play if they don't want to -- and dd also enjoys some alone time when friends are over for long periods -- I guess you could say the main thing I'm "getting out of" their coming is that it meets some of the needs of my highly extraverted homeschooler.

Since it's a regular thing I'd consider you an unpaid childcare provider. The line can get blurred in these type of situations between a playdate and regular childcare. Sometimes the kids just might not be into playing that day. It can even happen when kids are the same age and regular playmates. I've been in that situation and I ended up playing with one of the kids because they didn't want to play together.

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

We don't have computer rules. Dd plays on it when she wants.

Well she seems to have some I think it might help to set some boudaries wrt friends playing on the computer. It does seem very arbitrary to have your dd determine whether or not she'll "let" him play. The boy may not be seeing it as "her" toy since many households have shared computers and people have to negotiate for time.

It seems it would be helpful to determine some ground rules.

TBH it does seem like a large burden on an 11 yo to have to be a 7yo's playmate for that many hours. Even with another 11yo they might not click and might not always want to play.

ETA: Some people drape a cloth over the TV when its not in use. Would this help as a signal that the computer is off-limits for the time being?

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

Well she seems to have some I think it might help to set some boudaries wrt friends playing on the computer. It does seem very arbitrary to have your dd determine whether or not she'll "let" him play.

Yes, I like mamaduck's idea of talking with dd about consistency: it might be a good idea if we just leave it off when those friends are there, so they'll know what to expect if they decide to come. And maybe the cloth-draping idea will also help it not to look so tantalizing.

TBH it does seem like a large burden on an 11 yo to have to be a 7yo's playmate for that many hours. Even with another 11yo they might not click and might not always want to play.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression the 11yo "has" to be dd's playmate if he comes. He doesn't have to play with her at all, nor does his brother. The other day the 11yo was telling me that dd "made" him play something he didn't want to -- and I made it clear to him he can always tell her "no."

It's true that I extended the invitation because the kids usually enjoy playing together -- but even when they've come for shorter playdates, they've rarely spent 100% of their time in continuous interaction. And I've always made it clear that that's fine. We have a big enough house and yard that there's plenty of space when anyone wants alone-time.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

This sounds to me like a fairly difficult day for the eleven year old, and I am inclined to be sympathetic toward him. But it sounds as if he can always choose to stay home, if he'd rather? So he must like coming.

Yes, he can always stay home if he wants to, and I certainly don't want him to ever feel he has to come against his will.

I sure wouldn't tell anyone they couldn't read a book on the bookshelf; dd doesn't tell anyone that, either. And the toys that are in communal space are shared by everyone. Basically, things that aren't for sharing are put up out of sight -- with the exception of the computers.

I realize that many families all share one computer: dh is kind of picky about "his" (or our) computer -- which is why he set dd up with her own computer. She's not free to use ours, so we respect her rights over her own. This hasn't created a conflict with dd and our young toddler (who's not interested) -- but if it does, we'll probably end up with a 3rd computer.

[Charitymama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I realize that many families all share one computer: dh is kind of picky about "his" (or our) computer -- which is why he set dd up with her own computer. She's not free to use ours, so we respect her rights over her own. This hasn't created a conflict with dd and our young toddler (who's not interested) -- but if it does, we'll probably end up with a 3rd computer.

I was going to ask if the computer was your dd's or a family computer. If you've specifically given the computer to her, then I would respect her right to not have to share it. If you haven't specifically told her it's "hers" then I would tell her the computer is a "kids" computer, that "you" decide who can and can't use (whether it's her, other kids, or siblings). That way you can allow others to use it or share it without dd thinking you're forcing her to share her own personal items. That makes the computer "yours" and you are allowing her (or others when needed) to use it since dh doesn't want kids on the grown-up computer.
If you've already made it clear to your dd that it is "her" computer and she has full say over who uses it, then I suppose you need to respect that and tell other kids, that it's dd's computer and he'll have to ask her if he can use it. But I'd also make it clear to dd, that she shouldn't just demand people to get off when she feels like having it back, if she's going to allow others to use it.

[mammal_mama]

This experience is giving me lots of food for thought as far as what it means for someone to be "part of the household." In the past, when friends have told me, "You're not a guest, you're family," they've never really meant they were just as committed to meeting my needs as they were to providing for their own children (nor have I expected that).

When people say, "Come on in, make yourself at home," they usually don't exactly mean the other person's free to treat their friend's home, food, and belongings just as if they were their own.

Of course, I think with children you have to say what you mean and mean what you say. We're not in a position to let my friend's ravenous 11yo treat our pantry just like his pantry. So I have to make it clear what foods are available to them for snacking.

I've had to let these boys know that aside from milk for morning cereal, we can't give them any other drink besides water. Dh is too challenged just keeping up with the milk consumption of our 2 daughters, who love it (plus making sure he and I have enough for our coffee ), to be stuck buying an extra gallon every one or two weeks for dd's friends, who have their own parents to buy milk for them.

My 7yo is not very food-oriented (especially when friends are here), so she seems fairly willing to abide by her friends' food-limits while they're visiting, even though she's pretty much free to raid the pantry when she wants to. We've talked about how it feels for a visitor to see his host eating something the visitor can't have (similar to our discussions about playing with toys, in front of our friends, that we don't want to share).

And my 2 1/2yo's pretty much happy to snack on whatever's available to the boys -- so it's really not that me-n-the girls are sitting around eating caviar (my 7yo would be so yucked-out by that) while my friend's boys eat dry cheerios off the floor.

I guess my friend's boys are aware that our girls get milk (and the other food the 11yo's discovered when he's rummaged through our pantry) at other times. But then, I'm sure they get food in the evenings at home that we don't have access to, so it all evens out.

Now that I've been thinking all this through, I'm thinking people should never tell their guests, "You're part of the household! Our house, our food, everything we have is completely yours; treat our stuff just like it's your own."

Well, I guess it's not for me to dictate what other people "should" say to their guests. It's just, I don't personally know anyone who can say that and truly mean it. I know I can't.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Charitymama

If you've already made it clear to your dd that it is "her" computer and she has full say over who uses it, then I suppose you need to respect that and tell other kids, that it's dd's computer and he'll have to ask her if he can use it. But I'd also make it clear to dd, that she shouldn't just demand people to get off when she feels like having it back, if she's going to allow others to use it.

Yes, I think the important thing is for the boys to know what to expect when they come (that way they can both decide if they'd rather stay home). It may be best if the computer just stays off on those 2 days while they're here. The 11yo was actually mad the day when he'd played for 6 hours, and then had to get off -- so maybe it'd be easier for him to come (or not come) with the knowledge that computer's not part of the deal.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Yes, I think the important thing is for the boys to know what to expect when they come (that way they can both decide if they'd rather stay home). It may be best if the computer just stays off on those 2 days while they're here. The 11yo was actually mad the day when he'd played for 6 hours, and then had to get off -- so maybe it'd be easier for him to come (or not come) with the knowledge that computer's not part of the deal.

Yeah, that sounds good. It sounds like he has trouble self-regulating. Not surprising at his age-or mine either I sometimes have trouble.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

Yeah, that sounds good. It sounds like he has trouble self-regulating. Not surprising at his age-or mine either I sometimes have trouble.

Me, too!

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Lesley, I think he does have some sort of hand-held gaming system, which he brought over one day. And of course, his gaming system was treated as his own to play with, or share if he so desired (he liked letting dd use it so he could play on her computer).

In our household, family members do each have some private items -- and we have a choice as to whether we want to share those items -- so in that sense the boys are treated as part of the household.

Of course, our 7yo keeps quite a bit of her private belongings and projects in her own room, where our 2 1/2 yo only has access when our 7yo invites her in (and our 2 1/2 yo is indisputably part of the household!).

In the same way, as I've already said, dd understands that it can be hurtful to be in someone else's home, and watch your host playing with something she won't share with you. So she puts up stuff she doesn't want to share: it's just not practical to disconnect and box up her computer every time she wants it left off. So it's tormentingly out in plain view.

I've always wanted to be the kind of neighborhood mom who treats everyone like part of the household, and says, "Make yourself at home, help yourself to what's in the fridge, yada-yada." What I'm finding is that I also have to take my family's needs into consideration -- which means that since we have limited funds for groceries, I can't just let my friend's boys rummage through our kitchen and eat/drink whatever they want.

My friend occasionally sends enough food to maybe cover one snack -- but of course in an 11-hour period (they come early in the morning before having had breakfast), they get hungry for 2 full meals and about 2-3 snacks. That's way more than the one-serving container of yogurt she sent for each boy last week. So I give them cereal and milk for breakfast, and offer water for drinks after that.

I always make something available for unlimited munching. Last week, we had plenty of bread so I made some peanut-butter and honey sandwiches, cut them into squares, and stored them in a ziplock for the kids to help themselves to whenever they got hungry. Apples were also available, and one day I also made oatmeal cookies. I think they still got rather hungry, 'cause I didn't have whatever they were hungry for.

My friend makes barely more than minimum wage at her full-time job, and can't really afford to pay for childcare. Extended family help out with some of the care, and part of the time they've been staying home on their own (at almost 12 and almost 7, they seem to do okay with this).

I extended an invitation for them to come hang out with us 2 days a week if they want to, and so far they've wanted to come -- but I suppose if either or both weren't happy, their mom would let them stay home.

I"m assuming your children get to eat lunch, though. So do these kids jsut have snacks and watch or what? I owuld tell your friend to send lunch or have them go home while you eat. I can undertsand not being able to afford to feed them,. but that's not enough food for an 11 yr old boy.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by angelcat

I"m assuming your children get to eat lunch, though. So do these kids jsut have snacks and watch or what? I owuld tell your friend to send lunch or have them go home while you eat. I can undertsand not being able to afford to feed them,. but that's not enough food for an 11 yr old boy.

We ALL eat lunch! I certainly wouldn't eat lunch in front of our guests without giving them anything. In our house, peanut butter and honey sandwiches are a lunch food -- and last week I simply made a whole bunch of them so the kids could snack freely on them when they got hungry at other times, they were also able to snack freely on apples; we had plenty of those.

They have a bowl of cereal with milk when they get hungry for breakfast (that's breakfast at our house: for my girls and me, too!); whatever we're having for lunch, we share with them; and I make it a point to always have something available (like fresh fruit, carrot sticks, or homemade oatmeal cookies) for them to snack on when they get hungry at other times.

This is how my girls and I eat throughout the day: rather than three big meals, we do better just snacking whenever we're hungry. I can assure you, my girls and I are not hungry; they're thriving and I'm actually overweight! We eat our main meal, with meat and vegetables, in the evening when Daddy comes home.

Up until today, we also had peanut butter for dipping the fresh fruit or vegetable snacks, but we've used all that up. I think we still have some cream cheese, though. I guess I'll figure it out tomorrow.

I may need to let my friend know that her boys are getting hungry for more food than what she's sending them for the 11-hour period that they're with us. I'd have thought she'd be able to figure it out for herself -- but I guess not.

As far as sending them home while we eat -- my friend works an hour away, and there's no way she'd be able to come back to drive them home on her lunchbreak. I'm without a car while dh's at work, so sending them home would mean they'd be out walking alone during school hours, and likely to get harassed by the truant officer.

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

We ALL eat lunch! I certainly wouldn't eat lunch in front of our guests without giving them anything. In our house, peanut butter and honey sandwiches are a lunch food -- and last week I simply made a whole bunch of them so the kids could snack freely on them when they got hungry at other times, they were also able to snack freely on apples; we had plenty of those.

They have a bowl of cereal with milk when they get hungry for breakfast (that's breakfast at our house: for my girls and me, too!); whatever we're having for lunch, we share with them; and I make it a point to always have something available (like fresh fruit, carrot sticks, or homemade oatmeal cookies) for them to snack on when they get hungry at other times.

This is how my girls and I eat throughout the day: rather than three big meals, we do better just snacking whenever we're hungry. I can assure you, my girls and I are not hungry; they're thriving and I'm actually overweight! We eat our main meal, with meat and vegetables, in the evening when Daddy comes home.

Up until today, we also had peanut butter for dipping the fresh fruit or vegetable snacks, but we've used all that up. I think we still have some cream cheese, though. I guess I'll figure it out tomorrow.

I may need to let my friend know that her boys are getting hungry for more food than what she's sending them for the 11-hour period that they're with us. I'd have thought she'd be able to figure it out for herself -- but I guess not.

As far as sending them home while we eat -- my friend works an hour away, and there's no way she'd be able to come back to drive them home on her lunchbreak. I'm without a car while dh's at work, so sending them home would mean they'd be out walking alone during school hours, and likely to get harassed by the truant officer.

ah, ok. I misread what you said then.

Yeah, she needs to send more food.

And I assumed you were neighbours. Not sure why, but that's what I was thinking.