Sharing Belongings - Page 3

[Tani]

How is it home"schooling" if the mom works full-time and the kids are either unsupervised or just babysat without the schoolwork?

At least they'd get 2 meals and some supervision (and maybe even a little EDUCATION) at school. Naps and computer marathons aren't going to cut it. Home- and un-schooling can be great things; it's just that the parent has to be HOME to do it, no?

[rainyday]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

when the 11yo announced his plan to share with his brother "and no one else" -- it just came across as an attempt to shut out dd. And I felt if they just wanted (exclusive) brother-to-brother time, they didn't need to come here to get that.

I think you're right. It does sound exclusionary, and that isn't okay in my house.

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

But I think you're right: I was being too dictatorial about that. Last night, dd said the 11yo was mad at her for an argument they had, and when she apologized, he said, "You owe me X minutes of computer-time for that."

I said, "He's trying to manipulate you into turning on the computer. He thinks if he refuses to play with you, you'll turn it on to get him to be your friend again."

Dd said, "Well, I'm not going to." I suggested that if the boys weren't wanting to play with her, rather than trying to get them to, she just come to me and we'd do something fun together. She agreed. And I think this is more reasonable than saying the boys can't "clique up" if they want to. Also, I really do start missing her when she's so involved with her friends.

This exchange just makes me think that your daughter is being given too much control over what the boys can do. Make the computer off limits or not, but YOU need to be the one who sets the limits. It's not fair to the boys (or really to your DD, in the long run) to set it up as DD doesn't want anyone to use that today. That's giving a 7 yo a lot of power, and clearly the older boy sees that. It's just not fair to him. You need to take ownership and announce whether it's available or not and not let your DD keep changing the rules. Figure out what you want, and tell them. If your DD then says it's off because she doesn't want them playing with it, you need to say, no it's off because we're not doing computer today. End of story.

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

What conditions? Especially if they have full reign over their gameboy or whatever else they bring, I don't see why it should be a big deal if dd has certain things she keeps off/put up (as long as the conditions aren't changing from day to day and moment to moment).

So maybe I need to explain to dd, that if she accidentally leaves something she doesn't want shared out and a friend starts playing with it, out of kindness she really needs to let the friend know she forgot to put it up, but "since you've started playing with it, how about you give it to me in X minutes, and I'll put it up then?"

How many toys is your daughter putting away each day that you're having these kinds of issues? I would really encourage you to tell your DD that she can put away stuff she doesn't want played with, but once the boys are there, anything that is still out is fair game for anyone. Again, it's not fair to the boys for your DD to have the power to sometimes put toys away in the middle of the day.

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

What's a better alternative to treating them as guests? I don't understand, because I think I treat my guests pretty well, and strive to make people feel welcome and comfortable in my home. Why is "guest" a bad word?

I realize one pp said that I need to look at it like I have an 11yo, a 7yo, a 6yo, and a 2yo, on those 2 days a week. I think I do look at it that way, in terms of trying to meet everyone's needs.

I haven't written about guests, but I take it as right now there's a two-tiered system. Your daughter gets to choose what they other kids can play with and what they can't. Your daughter gets a lot of power, and the boys have to deal with it (which it sounds like they're doing rather gracefully, I might add), but it's not fair to them. Your DD has so far been able to capriciously control computer usage and remove toys from use in the middle of the day.

You're not meeting everyone's needs the way the current situation stands. It's hard, and I may sound a bit harsh, but I hope that you can see that you've given your daughter a very unfair amount of power over the boys.

Would you be happy if your DD were in the 11 yo's situation? How would you (and she) feel if twice a week she went to someone's house who got to say whether or not she could play with the thing she most wants to do (in this case, the computer)? How would she feel if in the middle of the day, the host child suddenly decided to make some more toys off limits? Even if the host child had "forgotten" to put them away, it still doesn't make it feel any better to the child who's visiting for the day. Would you want your DD to be utterly at the whims of another child who got to control what options your DD had to choose among for playing with that day?

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I'm hoping they'll bring some of their own playstuff soon, so they can see firsthand that I'm just as respectful of their private property as I am of dd's. Maybe that'll help?

The boys should definitely be encourage to bring some of their own things. But, before they do, think about how you're going to deal with them. If they bring a toy from home, is it for everyone's use? Does everyone (your children included) get to have one toy that they can have out that's for their own use? (If you go this route, I wouldn't let the computer be that toy for your DD.) Figure out your rules, and let everyone know.

It's hard because they're not your kids, and they haven't grown up with you since birth. Because you haven't developed a way of being as a family (with the boys), there may be sometimes when you have to make rules even though you'd rather not. But that's one of the main points of rules - to make it possible for people to be together comfortably.

Good luck!

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by RachelEve14

I wasn't trying to imply you force the kdis to play with your dd, just that experience of being a guest (no matter how close you are to the family) is that. In a day care situation you would be paid and be suppying activities, toys, etc. You are not being paid, so they are a guest. It's still a long day to be a guest in someone's home, kwim?

True. Still, from what I'm observing, they seem to feel pretty comfortable here. And now they'll have their own food each day to snack off of, so they won't be in the position of having to ask me if they can pour another glass of milk or whatever: if their mom sends milk (or whatever), they can have all they want of it -- if she doesn't, then they deal with what they have (and of course they have free access to ice water).

With the toy thing, I was trying to say maybe dd needs to decide what is special and what isn't. I didn't mean she sat teh toys out out of reach to tease, I just meant that the 6yo probably has a good idea now of what is in the house, and if he goes in one day thinking about playing with lego and the lego is off limits, well it might be dissapointing.

Yes, I've been talking with her about this, and she knows she wouldn't like it herself.

The main toy she's keeping put up (besides leaving off her computer) is a little animal toy that she likes using for her imaginary play, that the 6yo always wants to take, whenever he sees her playing with it.

One thing I've noticed about the 6yo is that he seems to perceive sharing as, "The minute I want something you've got, you're supposed to quit playing with it and let me take it."

For instance, the other morning my 2yo was drawing on the magnadoodle, and the 6yo complained that she wasn't "sharing it with him." I was like, how do you SHARE a magnadoodle, especially when there's only one pen? (I realize 2 kids might agree to take turns drawing -- but, I'm sorry, my 2yo wasn't in that kind of a mood at 6:30 in the morning).

Fortunately I remembered where the other one was, and he went and got that one. If there hadn't been another magnadoodle, I'd have had him use paper and pen or crayons, and told him that at some point the baby'd loose interest in the magnadoodle and he could have it then.

I've been friends with this family since the 6yo was 4 months old -- so I've seen how his mom, because she couldn't stand his shrill shrieking, early on started making her older son just give up his toys when her younger son wanted them. She later realized this was making things worse, and has modified things a little.

But, for instance, a few months back they were visiting here, when the 6yo wanted to play in the yard. He wanted the 11yo old there with him, and when the 11yo said he wanted to keep playing a game in the house, the 6yo started shrieking and the mother demanded that the 11yo drop what he was doing and do what his brother wanted. So she still seems to expect her 11yo to just "give in" a lot of the time.

I will say that the 6yo, upon finding that I wasn't going to force his brother to do his bidding, has learned to enjoy himself out in the yard on his own sometimes.

I think that just as my 7yo lacks a frame of reference for knowing how it feels to be away from her mom (me) for long periods on a regular basis, and to be cared for by others -- so the 6yo hasn't had much experience playing with his peers.

His mom doesn't seem to feel the same need I do, to arrange lots of playdates and cultivate relationships with other homeschooling families -- probably because her boys are not as extraverted and haven't been asking for this kind of interaction.

They've played with us -- but up until fairly recently, the 6yo preferred to play close to his mom and me, while my 7yo and her 11yo teamed up and had a lot of common interests. But now the 6yo is getting more common interests with dd, and the 11yo seems to be moving into a new phase, which is perfectly natural IMO.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Tani

How is it home"schooling" if the mom works full-time and the kids are either unsupervised or just babysat without the schoolwork?

They do their homeschooling in the evenings or on weekends.

At least they'd get 2 meals and some supervision (and maybe even a little EDUCATION) at school.

Well, there's only been one day since I talked with her about the food -- but they seemed to keep pretty satisfied with what she sent the following day.

Naps and computer marathons aren't going to cut it. Home- and un-schooling can be great things; it's just that the parent has to be HOME to do it, no?

6am is just awfully early for the 11yo -- who until fairly recently stayed up late and slept pretty late, because his mom used to work evenings and he liked spending time with her after she came home.

And now that we're leaving the computer off while the boys are here, he's not having any computer marathons.

In the homeschooling forum, you can find at least some WOHM's who manage to homeschool/unschool. Me being home works best for my family -- but not every family can do it that way, especially a single-parent family.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by rainyday

This exchange just makes me think that your daughter is being given too much control over what the boys can do.

She has absolutely no control over what they can do -- at least not now that we're working out some of the kinks. She's agreed not to keep making new things "off-limits."

I'd never intended for them to be controlled by dd: the advice here has helped me see how I was inadvertently allowing that to happen. I think the key is for them to know what to expect.

Make the computer off limits or not, but YOU need to be the one who sets the limits. It's not fair to the boys (or really to your DD, in the long run) to set it up as DD doesn't want anyone to use that today.

Yes; the boys no longer have to wonder what, if any, computer access they'll have at our house. They know the computer will always be off while they're here, and dd doesn't play on it while they're here, either.

You need to take ownership and announce whether it's available or not and not let your DD keep changing the rules.

Well, I'm not going to take ownership of the computer dh has given to dd.

But, as I've said in a pp, I've explained to dd that her friends have a right to be in a place where they're treated kindly. And it's unkind to play with something you know your friends like, right in front of them, if you're making it "off-limits" to them.

She wants her friends to keep coming. So she's decided to just leave her computer off, rather than get into conflicts over it. Maybe I should mention, she made this decision following the day when the 11yo stayed on for several hours, and ignored her everytime she said she wanted a turn. I'd been outdoors a lot with my 2yo and the 6yo, and hadn't payed close enough attention to what was happening. Clearly my fault.

Of course, my 7yo had also been outside with us part of the time, and involved in other things. She wasn't just sitting and waiting by the computer, though she did sometimes try to get her friend to let her participate in his games.

For her, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted the computer, as that she's having a hard time accepting that her friend is going into a new phase, where he won't be pairing up with her as much and enjoying all the stuff they used to enjoy.

I think that when he brings some of his own stuff, she'll start seeing that he's got new interests, and leaving the computer off isn't going to turn him back into her old playmate. And yet, he actually spent a whole lot of time the other day playing with all the younger kids, even a little bit with my 2yo. So maybe he hasn't totally left his childhood in the dust. We'll see!

How many toys is your daughter putting away each day that you're having these kinds of issues?

Besides her computer, just the one toy that I mentioned in the previous post.

I would really encourage you to tell your DD that she can put away stuff she doesn't want played with, but once the boys are there, anything that is still out is fair game for anyone. Again, it's not fair to the boys for your DD to have the power to sometimes put toys away in the middle of the day.

Right. There's going to be no more putting away toys in the middle of the day. What dd has agreed to, if she accidentally leaves that one toy out and the 6yo starts playing with it, is she'll tell him she forgot to put it away, so after he has a little time to play with it, he can give it to her to put up.

I haven't written about guests, but I take it as right now there's a two-tiered system. Your daughter gets to choose what they other kids can play with and what they can't. Your daughter gets a lot of power, and the boys have to deal with it (which it sounds like they're doing rather gracefully, I might add), but it's not fair to them.

No. Dd doesn't get to choose what they can play with and what they can't. She's leaving her computer off, and she's keeping one toy put up. They'll hopefully also start bringing some of their own things, and dd won't have access to that drawer unless they decide to share something with her.

Your DD has so far been able to capriciously control computer usage and remove toys from use in the middle of the day.

No, the computer's being left off, for everyone (well, for all the kids; I do have my computer on). And dd's not removing toys from use in the middle of the day. When she tried to do that yesterday, I reminded her of what she'd agreed to, and I also reminded her of the boys' right to be in a safe place, where they're treated kindly. And she worked things out with the 6yo.

You're not meeting everyone's needs the way the current situation stands. It's hard, and I may sound a bit harsh, but I hope that you can see that you've given your daughter a very unfair amount of power over the boys.

The reason I started this thread was to get advice about how to better meet everyone's needs. I feel I've gotten excellent advice regarding the need for everyone to know what to expect, so the boys can feel even more welcome, and not come each day wondering what they'll be able to play with today.

The way the current situation stands, I don't think my dd has power over the boys, any more than they have power over her because she loves playing with them and wants them to keep coming back.

Would you be happy if your DD were in the 11 yo's situation?

Well, my friend and I do a lot of things differently. I'd be unhappy if my 11yo were being forced to drop what he was doing at the bidding of his 6yo brother. But I wouldn't necessarily be unhappy if my 11yo went to someone's house and the computer was left off.

When my 7yo goes to friends' houses for playdayes, all I expect is that she'll be included and treated kindly. If the kids' computer is left off, or whatever, I see that as up to the discretion of the family. I don't see it as the same thing as the children in that house playing on the computer, while my dd watches and never gets a turn.

How would you (and she) feel if twice a week she went to someone's house who got to say whether or not she could play with the thing she most wants to do (in this case, the computer)?

When dd goes to friends' houses, the thing she most wants to do is play with her friends. If she came home sad because her friends didn't want to play with her, she'd probably decide not to go back. She never has to go to friends' houses if she doesn't want to (so far she's always wanted to).

How would she feel if in the middle of the day, the host child suddenly decided to make some more toys off limits? Even if the host child had "forgotten" to put them away, it still doesn't make it feel any better to the child who's visiting for the day. Would you want your DD to be utterly at the whims of another child who got to control what options your DD had to choose among for playing with that day?

Of course not! That's why I'm not willing for that to happen to my friends' kids.

The boys should definitely be encourage to bring some of their own things. But, before they do, think about how you're going to deal with them. If they bring a toy from home, is it for everyone's use?

Not unless the owner decides to share it.

Does everyone (your children included) get to have one toy that they can have out that's for their own use?

Dd sometimes says she wants some alone time, and goes into her room and shuts the door, so whatever she's playing with in there is obviously not accessible to anyone else. The 11yo also gets a long period of alone time in dd's room when he takes his morning nap. And the 6yo can find lots of places in the house or yard to be alone, but he often prefers hanging out and talking with me, which I enjoy, too.

(If you go this route, I wouldn't let the computer be that toy for your DD.)

As I've already said, dd is now leaving her computer off when her friends are here.

Good luck!

Thank you!