Why are women in the US so UNeducated about labor and childbirth? - Page 2

[Organicavocado]

Blah. I think most of it is friends and family and this saying:

"Your doctor went through years and years od medical school. They know what they're doing."

Yuck.

[lilkat]

One possible silver lining is that things may be changing. My sister birthed her two sons in Los Angeles in 2002 and 2004. At her hospital, the nurses and doctors actively DISCOURAGED the use of the epidural. It was hospital policy that pregnant mamas had to watch a video showing how bad the the epi can be for the baby: showing one active, alert, happy newborn (no epi), and one glassy-eyed, fussy, sleepy baby (epi). That is why my sis was shocked and upset when I told her I wanted to birth at home. She kept repeating, "you can have a natural birth in a hospital, why do you assume you'd have interventions forced on you?" Unfortunately, not all hospitals are as progressive as hers in LA! But trends that start on the west coast often spread throughout the rest of the country, so maybe standard natural hospital births are coming our way!

[crazydiamond]

I think it has less to do with the medical system itself and more to do with the American culture. People want to be independent but do not want the responsibility that comes with it.

It's funny, but I can ask this very same question about all sorts of things. Why don't people care about carseats? Why don't they care about eating healthy? Why don't they care about exercise? Uneducation about labor and childbirth are just an extension of that.

Most people in the US simply don't care to be educated. They are content to stick with the status quo, not put much effort into things, and blame others when things don't go as planned. And sadly, I really do think most people are content enough with this system that they never really stop to consider the alternatives. In other words, there's not a whole lot of personal responsibility out there.

[ChristyM26]

Originally Posted by JEB20005

I am just wondering, do you all think that the average woman doesn't read and learn about what her body is going to do when it is laboring? Do you think they don't realize that they have options and can be a part of the decision making process? I think what bothers me the most is that a lot of women don't seem to want to be involved in the decision making, don't want to become educated about the normal range of natural labors and childbirthing scenarios (which are vast and wide) and are so quick to rely on interventions based on what seems to me are their doctor's convenience and not necessarily what is in their own, or their baby's, best interests. Even more fascinating to me is that some of the same women who allow themselves to be "bullied" by their doctors into (what I believe are) unnecessary interventions are the same ones who are obsessed about chewing sugar-free gum during pregnancy because of the aspartame in it. It just seems like the priorities are a bit skewed. I suppose I am also just really perplexed by the sheer volume of inductions and scheduled c-sections listed MONTHS ahead of time on the due date circle lists.

I am sincerely not trying to be harshly judgmental and I am curious as to what reasons any of you think are responsible for the current state of obstetrics in the US. Is there anything that can be done in a positive way to change it? Do you even think that there are issues, like I do? How do you gently try to introduce the idea of a spontaneous, vaginal childbirth, and possibly even a drug free childbirth to a woman who is clearly blissfully ignorant and is dreaming of the epi months before she has even felt one contraction? Is it appropriate to suggest otherwise to her? Is it appropriate to urge women to not 100% trust every bit of advice that their doctor gives them without seeming like a know-it-all or being obnoxiously intrusive?

On your first point, no most women don't learn about what their body will do/go through during labor and pregnancy. Frankly, I think part of it comes from the idea that "that's science and it's to complicated for me to understand." As a scientist, I understand the process (far to well sometimes) and very few people I have ever met come anywhere near understanding what is going on during conception, let alone the rest of pregnancy and birth.

To part of the second half of your post, the only places I have ever really seen or heard discussion of calm, quiet births is in a book like Ina May's. Getting people to read is nearly impossible in our culture. As an example, our high school requires our students to read during the equivalent of homeroom, once a week for 20 minutes. The students can read anything they want (literally ANYTHING). Half of them flat out refuse to read and sit for 20 minutes or try to cause problems. Getting people to voluntarily read is difficult in the mainstream public. If all their information is coming from their friends and tv and movies... well, if you want to change their perception then you need to get the perception of the media to change.

And the last thing I wanted to add was that I think it is grossly unfair to assume (as some people seem to have along the thread and most MDC participants will tend to believe) that because a woman is seeing a doctor or using a hospital that they are uninformed and just going with the mainstream. Lots of folks refuse to recognize that there are good doctors (everywhere) and that there are patients who can think for themselves and don't just blindly follow what their doctor says. In fact, there are doctors who have relationships with their patients and offer professional opinions which the patient can refuse, if that's what they want.

And please know that I'm not saying everyone on MDC is like this or that all the people on this thread said these things. I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that it's a prominent belief on the forum and it's a shame that more people aren't willing to accept that a hospital birth or an OB could be a good thing for some people.

[AlpineMama]

Today I had to go see a very... know-it-all OB for a procedure I wasn't too happy about. I had heard great things about him from other pregnant women, how reassuring he was, what a great bedside manner he had... I found him to be patronizing and that he talked down to me. It was irritating. And yet the women seemed to LIKE his attitude. It made them feel better. I just can't wrap my mind around that.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by ChristyM26

And the last thing I wanted to add was that I think it is grossly unfair to assume (as some people seem to have along the thread and most MDC participants will tend to believe) that because a woman is seeing a doctor or using a hospital that they are uninformed and just going with the mainstream. Lots of folks refuse to recognize that there are good doctors (everywhere) and that there are patients who can think for themselves and don't just blindly follow what their doctor says. In fact, there are doctors who have relationships with their patients and offer professional opinions which the patient can refuse, if that's what they want.

I think this is a great point. I probably should have been clearer in my OP. I do use a group of CNMs attached to a large OB group and I choose to deliver in a hospital for various reasons. I don't believe that you have to have a lay midwife or a homebirth or a birth center birth by any means. Once again, I am not debating interventions or birthing venues, it is more the passive attitude about medical care and laboring options, the lack of education and the sheer volume of misinformation that is so prevalent amongst women I know in real life and on the internet. And I guess I could also add to the list most of the women on those reality birthing shows that are on Discovery Channel. I

[pdxmomazon]

Originally Posted by Dea

I think pregnancy and childbirth are very personal and can be really scary to some women/ people (to include husbands/ spouses).
I think what PP have said is true, but I also think that the actual birth is less important to some people as it might be to some people here.

I agree with that.

My mom died from brain cancer. When she was diagnosed I was 17. Even at that age I was more inclined to challenge, do research, and to try and take charge of the situation. However, my mom wanted to "leave it to the doctors." She put her complete trust in them and didn't question anything they told (or didn't tell) her. I think a lot of people, pregnant women included, are like this.

[MonP'titBoudain]

I actually have no problems with a woman choosing to have interventions such as an Epi, etc. I just wish that they would make that decision not blindly following their doctor's suggestion but because they know the risks/benefits and have weighed their options, yk? I think a lot of people are really unable to deal/cope with pain. This is totally understandlable in our society because, in general, we don't have to deal with pain (have a headache? take Tylenol!) And, honestly, I think it is unfair to expect someone who has never learned to cope with any kind of pain to birth. Not because the pain of labor is so overwhelming but the IDEA of pain in labor can be that overwhelming. It's the unwillingness to even learn about alternatives, methods of coping, etc that gets to me. It is such a source of grief to me. (And I mean grief, it really makes me sad how many women don't know what they are deciding against).

Often I wonder how much of this handing over of power undermines the new parents confidence. If you've spent your whole pregnancy, labor and birth resigning control to a third party (the doctor, spouse, mother-in-law, whomever) how can you be expected to change course and rest confidently in your strength as a new parent? I really do think there is a connection there somewhere. After all, how many folks look to their peds for parenting advice?

[patchynurse]

This is a little off topic but in the vein of lack of education. I work with a woman who said during a discussion about breastfeeding that she had a recipe for baby formula. It is equal parts water, condensed milk and Karo syrup?! I almost fainted when she told me.

[crazydiamond]

Originally Posted by patchynurse

This is a little off topic but in the vein of lack of education. I work with a woman who said during a discussion about breastfeeding that she had a recipe for baby formula. It is equal parts water, condensed milk and Karo syrup?! I almost fainted when she told me.

She must have gotten that from her grandmother or something. A lot of our parents were fed that as babies. At least these days there is nutritious formula, even if it's still inferior to BM. Still miles better than what they had before then. Yikes!

[rabrog]

While I understand where you're coming from, please don't fault the women who make the choices with the information they have at the time. When you know better, you do better, but you can't make different choices without the information.

Girls in society are raised, for the most part, that birth should be easy and painfree - there are drugs afterall. If they're never taught that there are other techniques to use to manage labor, they use what they know. As for "my doctor said," yep, doctors are held in too high esteem in our society. That's why we have so many vaccine injured kids; parents who don't want vaccines for their children get talked/scared/berated into it in the doctor's office.

Others have the information but it's seen as "out there" or "weird" so it's not taken into account. You can't educate yourself if you don't have the information available and even then, it can depend on the people around you.

Jenn

[Jenlaana]

The responses in this thread really surprise me for some reason... It was so completely different for me than what most suggest here.

I don't generally use doctors or hospitals, and other than my first, a cesarean, and a very bad week in the hospital with pneumonia, I never needed the resources of a hospital. But, when something DID happen to me that was outside of my knowledge, that was "medical", I trusted the doctors to advise me. Its what WE PAY THEM FOR. I mean sure there are bad apples in every bunch, but as a general rule, I think there is an expectation of someone being a doctor, making the decisions that they make for your care based on your best interest. Between their education, and the fact that a gain, WE ARE PAYING THEM FOR THEIR ADVICE, why would we want to negate that advice by trying to play doctor ourselves??? Why pay them for a service and then not use it? I could understand going to more than one doctor in order to get a second opinion, but logic stands that unless there is something wrong with that doctor, the opinion *should* be very similar right? I mean why do people use financial advisors? Because they know the ins and outs of financing. Or lawyers? Or any other 'specialist'? So that we can pay someone to do the research for us, in order to avoid making decisions without all of the facts, or having to 'go to school' for every important decision we make in our lives.

When I got pregnant with my daughter, 10 years had passed since my cesarean. After 10 years, I still felt that the reason that my experience was bad w/ my first, was because I just was not 'good at having babies' and that I wasn't brave like the women who have many children. I truly felt that it was ME that couldn't handle birth, and not that there was anything wrong with my birth.

I started out just looking into having a VBAC, and with that I learned more and more about natural birth and birth options and birth in the USA, and the injustice that happens to so many women because we don't know any better. I can honestly say that the best way to describe learning about birth, for myself and my husband, was...

I felt like Alice in Wonderland, falling down the rabbit hole into a whole new reality...

It was, and still is, so unbelievably surreal to me. My entire life has changed because of what i learned about doctors and birth (which led to learning about education and nutrition and every other aspect of my life). It still doesnt make sense to me, after 2 years, and now about to give birth to my 3rd child. Why on earth would they do these things to us that are not necessary???? Why would doctors feel that its ok to scare women into complacency instead of giving them the facts when they ask for them? Why would a doctor, a TRUSTED professional, choose to cut someone open when its not the safest route? Why induce for convenience knowing the possible outcomes??? I still don't understand it and I dont think Iever will. How can legality turn birth into such an unbelievable nightmare?

It scares me to think of how far reaching this mentality is. If this is how they handle birth... how do they handle cancer patients? Or the care of the aging? Or pediatrics? Or any of the many other areas that we NEED to trust doctors in order to get through? I only thank my gods that in the one area that I am well versed enough to truly BE scared, I am able to handle the situation without being forced to seek medical assistance. If birth really DID need medical assistance, I don't know if I could have been able to force myself to go through it again, and I would have missed out on my beautiful daughter and the daughter yet to arrive.

[Jenlaana]

I guess I just dont think its "society playing women as a victim" or "us not being brave enough to take responsibility". Its just that it makes sense, IMO, to get what you pay for, and it doesn't make sense that doctors would feed you misinformation in order to make their lives easier.

[SandraS]

The "martyr" mentality is what bothers me the most... and I think it's the American mainstream that's caused it - because the sayings are far and wide!

• You don't get a medal for doing it.
• I wouldn't have a root canal without drugs.
• No one stands on the roof and shouts that you had NCB.
• I don't need to prove anything to anyone.
• I did it once before, this time I'm taking the "easy" way out.

I could cry every time I hear those things. But I always say that I don't get a medal for putting my baby in a carseat, just because it's the absolute safest choice for me and my children, right? And I don't shout at the rooftops that today I did the best thing for my family by breastfeeding, too... and I don't need to prove I'm informed by making the safest choices....

Ugh.

[KariM]

I think women in our culture have been socialized to listen to the "experts" and that includes doctors.

I think it's also a lot easier for someone frightened of an event (like birth) to hand all responsibility over to someone else than to assume the responsibility herself.

[lilkat]

I think the problem is that both the public and the doctors lump birthing in with illness. I will ABSOLUTELY trust my doctor if I break my leg. I'm not going to tell her how to put the cast on! That *is* what I pay her for

But I don't believe that pregnancy is an illness, although I know there are some who would disagree. And it seems like the medical mindset is to treat pregnancy as an illness. Doctors are trained to be proactive, to embrace technological advances, and to root out the causes of illness. That's wonderful in the case of real illnesses! I wouldn't want my doctors to "let nature take it's course" or "just wait and see" if I had cancer!

But the same logic does not apply to pregnancy and childbirth, in my opinion. Because of their training, doctors may see only that they are striving for an end outcome (healthy mama, healthy baby), and they are chomping at the bit to go in there and DO something to make that happen. Pregnant women who view birth as a medical procedure may feel similarly, and may assume that a medical procedure requires drugs and/or surgery. But it seems to me that many times with childbirth allowing "nature to take it's course" is the best way.

That is not to say that some pregnancies don't develop into medical emergencies. I has born thanks to the medical miracle of c-section, and my sister and nephews are alive today because she needed them, too. In both my mother's cause and my sister's case, the c-sections were vital, and thank god they had competent doctors available to perform them. But to treat EVERY pregnancy as an illness and EVERY birth as a medical emergency leads to too much meddling, IMO.

I am not sick. If I get sick, I will happily go see my doctor.

[Grace24]

Originally Posted by steph117

I also think that it can also be difficult for women to go "against the grain," so to speak, because so many people will respond to the idea of going drug-free with, "Yeah, just wait til the pain starts. You'll get the epidural. You just don't know."

Yes, I've gotten this countless times, and what surprises me is how aggressive some women can be about it. As though I'm insulting them personally by having a natural childbirth. And one friend I have, I've had to stop talking about it with her because she's so pro-intervention she believes a C-section is man's greatest gift to women. God, just put a zipper in my belly, KWIM?

Women who have already had C-sections or even just routine births in hospitals with lots of interventions can be very, very defensive about it. It's sad. I hope my homebirth goes smoothly as planned so I can show all of them how it CAN be... my doula is encouraging Paul and me to write about it so the word gets out there what birth can and should be like.

[pandarillo]

I don't agree that it is all misogyny, though it does play a part. I too am so shocked at the degree of ignorance in the US a lot of women seem to have about labor and delivery. A dear friend of mine who had her baby boy about 5 months ago had a terrible experience, at first I felt sorry for her, but when I talked to her further I realized she hadn't informed herself AT ALL before she gave birth. She went in for a routine vaginal delivery (firstly, she chose a HUGE hospital OB practice) and basically didn't question anything they told her, they gave her pitocin to hurry things up and when it got very painful, she asked for an epidural, which slowed things right down again, then she had an "emergency" C Section. She didn't even get to hold her baby first, she was so out of it and in pain when she came to. This was the experience she had because of the practice she chose to go with and the limited education she gave herself about interventions. After the birth, she told me she still didn't know what Pitocin was or what it did. Mind you, she works full time and is very busy and I'm sure she felt sidelined by this whole experience, but I was still kind of apalled that even afterwards, she chose not to investigate what really happened in there. So how much of it misogyny, and how much of it is our willingness to be misogynised?

[pandarillo]

I am frustrated with this mentality too. Even my ultrasound technician felt the need to let me know "that the epidural is there for a reason, don't try to prove anything to anybody" Give me some credit for knowing my own body and limits. Are there really people for whom this is a competition to see how far they can push their body. For me it's about my baby!

[mama2rey]

Originally Posted by pandarillo

I don't agree that it is all misogyny, though it does play a part. I too am so shocked at the degree of ignorance in the US a lot of women seem to have about labor and delivery. A dear friend of mine who had her baby boy about 5 months ago had a terrible experience, at first I felt sorry for her, but when I talked to her further I realized she hadn't informed herself AT ALL before she gave birth. She went in for a routine vaginal delivery (firstly, she chose a HUGE hospital OB practice) and basically didn't question anything they told her, they gave her pitocin to hurry things up and when it got very painful, she asked for an epidural, which slowed things right down again, then she had an "emergency" C Section. She didn't even get to hold her baby first, she was so out of it and in pain when she came to. This was the experience she had because of the practice she chose to go with and the limited education she gave herself about interventions. After the birth, she told me she still didn't know what Pitocin was or what it did. Mind you, she works full time and is very busy and I'm sure she felt sidelined by this whole experience, but I was still kind of apalled that even afterwards, she chose not to investigate what really happened in there. So how much of it misogyny, and how much of it is our willingness to be misogynised?

Just from reading this story-I have a very good guess about which hospital in Chicago this is. I had another good friend of mine go to a huge hospital in Chicago who was well informed. However once she got in there she felt pressured to get an epidural, get pitocin, etc..... I know this particular place is known for pushing the interventions as for them birth is an assembly line. For my friend, at one point they wanted to break her waters. She wanted to talk to her partner and doula first-and the doctor got annoyed walked away and didn't come back for 45 minutes. He also lied to her and told her she was 9.5 cm dialated when she was only about 8cm. This is not to say that your friend should have been better informed-but I know some places just pressure people to get intervention after intervention.

I also have met women who simply don't care to educate themselves. When I mention natural childbirth they act like I have 5 heads. When you discuss their childbirth experiences-they are so disconnected and they just trust doctors blindly. It's sad-but I also know that I've had to go against the grain to learn about childbirth and educate myself. We just are not supported in learning about childbirth-we have to seek out resources that are outside of mainstream culture.