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post #21 of 32
I get frustrated by how women buy lies and totally illogical ones at that, too. The need for approval (I call it the Inner Good Girl henceforth IGG) is so strong in us that most of us would rather be raped than make anyone uncomfortable by being forceful about saying no. We accept interventions we don't want because we don't want to offend complete strangers we'll never see again, and who probably won't even remember our names the following week while we'll remember the pain of the experience for the rest of our lives. Women do this in all areas of their lives, I never see a woman who makes less than nurturing decisions in birth for herself who isn't also making those kinds of decisions for herself in other parts of our lives. It's not like this stuff is isolated to birth, yk? We stay in violent relationships, we abuse our bodies with food and drugs, we have little self esteem or sense of self worth a lot of the time so approval is really important. I think of this stuff every time someone says "Good girl!" to my daughter and breathe a little sigh of relief that we've decided praising is not a tool in our home. For us to admit that we've accepted this shoddy treatment, like say a c/s for no reason at all, means unpacking so many other places in our lives that most of us recoil from it. I see women all the time who ask me how to stop the pain of their birth trauma but then also tell me they can't possibly look at the rest of their lives and what they took to the birth space that made them compliant because it's too painful and scary. Many of us would rather put all our energies into avoidance because the whole foundation of our lives is cracked open if we admit the truth to ourselves. That IGG is like rotting meat many of us drag around. We deny the smell to ourselves and others, and just spray perfume around hoping it will go away but we never actually just cut it off with the knife of our intelligence.
post #22 of 32
Thread Starter 

ligthbulb moment

Discussing this thread with DH last night and it suddenly occurred to me that if at least part of the reason that women don't believe what I am telling them is an emotional need for approval, then maybe the fault is mine for not also giving them the message of approval.

I work very hard at being non-judgmental, so no approval or disapproval. Just give them the info, tell them where to find additional info, discuss things and let them make a decision that is right for their family.

However, if they could hear what I said a little better with a spoonful of approval then there is another ethical dilemma. I don't believe that I should bias the information that I give in this way, yet when I know the information is the most accurate, and for their well being, and they would hear it better if I did, then am I being unethical not to try to influence them this way. That last part sounds paternalistic, but now I see how that happens. The HCP saying "Let me take care of that for you." comes from concern.

:
post #23 of 32
Thanks so much for your eloquence, Janet!

I think that women instinctively know that to look deeper does mean destabilizing the rock upon which their lives are built...unsettling everything, and it forbodes great loss: the loss of one's sense of self, the loss of one's very identity, not to mention the possible loss of mate, family esteem, friends, home, routine.

When I see how these bad things happen for women around birth and babies, and see the way that good information slides off instead of sinking in and being acted-upon, I think we have to remember that people instinctively shy away from things that challenge their basic identity and reality. Uh, things that challenge being a Good Girl, at base. It is scary...women can sense the loss and disruption involved in really hearing and acting on the best information...and they are right! There is great loss involved, great disruption. What they cannot see (yet) is that only through that loss of present identity and choices does a woman truly bloom into her creative and emotional power....that on the other side of that loss is something MORE, and BETTER.

There is no way to push that river; it MUST become 'time' in an individual's life, before she will go there. And that timing varies so very much from person to person....

Maybe the best things we can do to help women recovering from birth trauma (as with a woman recovering from any abuse) is to listen, believing her, as well as trusting that healing WILL come for her in time. Secondly to keep on offering tools for living such as assertiveness; how to truly feel emotions and express those in safe, constructive ways; engaging that critical analysis (research/info gathering) when it comes to health/birth decisions; non-violent comm. skills; relaxation/stress reduction techniques, holistic self-care....things that serve women's present health and personal growth over time.
post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malga View Post
This is definitely an issue in the West. People only go to get help after something is wrong. Preventative help is the key-- thats one of the things I love about midwifery, massage, naturopathy, even PAP smears ;-). I agree one difference in my example was going to a doctor for a problem versus health. I could give another example of going for chiropractic even though I feel wonderful because they are experts in that field and it helps me to stay feeling great.
This is why I specifically mentioned paps, since they may actually do some good. Having a pediatrician poke at my kid's stomach and take her temperature once a year? Not so much. I just don't believe healthy people need doctors as a general rule. I think if anything, in the West we depend WAY too heavily on doctors.
post #25 of 32
My gosh...I've only read the first post but...yikes I am there and doing that...

ALL of my children are small and grow on a curve, just not "the DR's".

I went through it with DD#1, now going through it with #3...Drs...want tests, don't think she's big enough. DD3 is growing JUST like DD1.

I was strong enough to stand up to them the 1st time and now agian but this time its different. I am a CLC, I am a doula and a student mw. It still gets to me every time I walk into that exam room and doubts plague my head. Yet I KNOW my babies and I KNOW the facts.

This all happened to me Friday. Aparantly my BM dosen't contain enough iron for DD after 6 mos (BALONEY) and since I'm not feeding iron fortified cereals she must be anemic ya know....: Sure I know better but we ran a CBC to shut up DR and well, I am curious....

So yeah, as moms especially (or whatever it is we're doing) we want to do our best, and when someone questions our results we question...I think its normal. I also think that we need to remember that the medical establishment really doesn't trust the human body....

Heather
post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 

trusting birth (scary situation warning)

JanetF is on to something when she talks about the thin veneer we pull over our beliefs and history to say we trust birth. For any of us that are birth professionals what is our usual response when something really bad happens at a birth?

I had a mom last year with a vaginal hematoma. It is a very rare complication and she had an atypical presentation to boot. If you have ever seen a pelvic hematoma, you know that the woman complains about a degree of pain that is far out of proportion to the damage you can see. But, this mom didn't complain about pain, she just started saying she wasn't feeling well 4 hours PP. There was also a trickle of bleeding , but a very firm uterus that was displaced and rising. Long story short, we transported and she was in surgery w/i the hour. I know the doc that picked up care and I was with mom through the whole thing. I could here the blood splashing on the floor and the serious concern in the doc's voice. It gets really scary when the anesthesiologist is asking if the patient is still responding or if she has lost consciousness (because of the blood loss). Mom needed 2 pints of blood and was still anemic.

That was a situation where I spent days trying to convince myself that birth was still safe. I once asked Ina May about her response to situations like this and her reply was that there are mornings when she has to get up and choose to believe that birth is still safe.

If we as birth professionals can lose faith in birth, then what?
post #27 of 32
It's not surprising that some of us respond strongly to that kind of experience. It's really scary stuff! This is the thing though, birth is as safe as life gets. Corny but true "Birth is safe" doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens in the best possible environment with the most connected midwife and client, it means that like life, sometimes birth has adverse outcomes. It doesn't make them ok, and we should do all we can to avoid them but sometimes babies die, sometimes women die. We've forgotten that that can happen because we've decided our technology is the ultimate protection. Women sometimes say to me, "I didn't know anyone ever died in birth any more." despite the way the "dead baby card" is constantly bandied about by surgeons who obviously like to paint themselves as the shaman straddling life and death and saving us all from our faulty female bodies. So I can no more lose my faith in birth than I can lose my faith in life, yk?

Sometimes people in my life have died. My mother died of lung cancer despite never having smoked and having lived a healthful and abstemious lifestyle. That didn't put me off trusting that breastfeeding, living healthily and taking a walk from time to time would still help me to avoid cancer. If I lost faith in those I'd take up drinking and smoking and stop breastfeeding and not bother to nurture myself any more. Yet a "bad birth" can make us doubt "birth". Why? Birth is part of life, death is part of life, sometimes they're going to meet. Undeniably tragic, oh so frightening and confronting to be a part of, especially as careprovider or mama/parents, but it's not birth that's unsafe, it's life. Life has serious gear in it sometimes, and those are sometimes in birth. So we can do all we can to be safe, not intervene unnecessarily, live a gentle nurturing lifestyle to nourish our bodies and our babies, and generally that works out ok for all concerned. Sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes that's no one's "fault", it's just darned bad luck. With our appalling interventions it's a miracle it doesn't happen more often but that too is a good indication of how resilient we really are and why the bad stuff doesn't happen all that often under "the right" conditions. So that's how I see it. And much love to you getting back your strength over that difficult experience. (Keep me from going on with my fave car analogies but we've all known people who died in cars too but we still drive 'em. No one "loses their faith" in cars despite how many of us die on the roads, hey?)
post #28 of 32
Quote:
most of us would rather be raped than make anyone uncomfortable by being forceful about saying no. We accept interventions we don't want because we don't want to offend complete strangers we'll never see again, and who probably won't even remember our names the following week
I'm sorry-- there are many good, enlightening things being said here but IMHO the above statement is far from that. We don't always know the life experience of the women we care for and its not are job to judge the decisions women make for themselves. I don't know any woman that would rather be raped than say "no"-- that is just a horrible statement. I can't understand how thinking that or saying that helps to improve a situation for a woman. Most women try to do what they believe is best for their babies, to the best of their knowledge and abilities (for example I was at a birth with an 18 yr old last night-- typical hospital birth, and she cut down from 1.5 packs of ciggs a day to 4. Now that is not ideal, but she is trying her best). I think its a HUGE overgeneralization to say that women take anything, even rape, rather than offend someone.
post #29 of 32

warning--infant loss mentioned

Quote:
Originally Posted by mothercat View Post

If we as birth professionals can lose faith in birth, then what?
I grappled with this in a very personal way this past spring. I attended an unexpected outcome--the mom was my best friend, I was 32wks pregnant. Their baby died. It was a planned hospital birth. I am a (disenchanted and retired) doula, but I was there as just a friend.

Needless to say, the birth and life and death of that child challenged everything I was so sure I'd figured out. As birth professionals, we know unexpected outcome can happen. We cognitively prepare ourselves for the possibility--but I don't think we're ever prepared.

In my case, I couldn't avoid doing the work. My own birth (planned uc) hinged on me making peace with the challenge to my faith. I did as much of the work as I could, but I didn't exactly get my uc. I got stuck on a fear and called a midwife for help. She helped in a way that was helpful, and I am grateful.

In the end, I really do believe that "birth is as safe as life gets." I don't for one moment believe that birth is "safe."

I knew a woman who was the epitome of good health. One day she dropped dead from an aneurysm. She was 33. No one could have predicted it. Sometimes birth is like that.

I'm not a person of a defined faith. If I were, I might say that the only thing we can really trust is that God's will be done.

From my spiritual perspective, I think we dishonor the life force that flows through us all when we say that birth is safe. When we assume a guarantee of safe passage, we lose some reverence for life.

I'd like to write more, but the baby calls....
post #30 of 32
Malga that's my experience after supporting hundreds of women healing from birth trauma. Obviously not everyone falls into that category, but do I really need to spell that out or can we assume it? It's still a mighty common phenomenon and we do it in all parts of our lives. Those are the observations I've made, and the comments I've heard from many women in various forms. You might not like it, but as someone who deals with traumatised women day in and day out, that's one of the key features I see. Strange but true. I was one of those women myself, I screamed during a VE and asked the surgeon to get her hand out of my body but I also felt really embarassed that I was "making a fuss" and instead of kicking her in the head, I agreed to a ROM and I still live with the flashbacks. I accepted interventions in the hospital because I wanted to "compromise" and get along with the staff, so they'd be nice to me, so they might stop treating me like sh*t and to try and avoid offending them any more than they were already offended by me having planned a hb and then having the apparent temerity to transfer. Women say those things all the time.
post #31 of 32
Wow, great thread...

I've had to detach from this a bit, because defining my boundaries became very important to my sanity. I like to think I project confidence, at the same time that I encourage my clients to find their own way. If they chose to be swayed and make decisions based on incorrect information, that's their path, and I can't assume responsibility for that.
post #32 of 32
JanetF- I understand what you are saying, but it seems very contradictory to me to say that you work with traumatized women and you support their healing and then in another post say that women would rather be raped than say "no" and make someone uncomfortable. I just think that is a hurtful, not helpful, comment and also not true of most women.

Otherwise, this is such an important topic and I enjoy reading the posts.
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