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Help! Bucket seats have invaded Denmark! - Page 3

post #41 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by vloky View Post
Not to mention some babies HATE being worn. My son couldn't stand it, I tried the moby, I tried the peanut shell, different positions, he'd SCREAM! He now tolerates the playtex hip sling for short spurts of time. He's a 30 lb one year old and thank heavens he walks.. :
Yes my son did too, and I wouldn't be very AP if I forced it on him would I?:
post #42 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post
Yes my son did too, and I wouldn't be very AP if I forced it on him would I?:
not at all. I think the lines between ap and crunch get blurred a bit to much on this site.
post #43 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
As for the cultural argument, in many European countries (I can't speak to Denmark specifically) it was traditional for a very long time to push your child to the high street in a big pram - and then leave the child unattended in the pram outside the store while you did the shopping. Not all traditions are things that shouldn't be improved on....
Good point. I actually don't have a particular problem with that tradition, but couldn't one make the argument that that practice is at least as neglectful as putting a babe-in-bucket along the wall at an older child's Mommy and Me class?

Oh ... but the babies in Europe are in prams, not buckets ... that makes it better then. :
post #44 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
In the meanwhile, if you dislike the seats so much you could always go around poking any little babies that you see sleeping in them. Then their mamas will be forced to take them out when they start crying... voila! problem solved!

Added bonus: you get to give all the moms that do not take their crying babies out for a cuddle the Super AP Stinkeye.
I love you, and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvirnon View Post
There is nothing on this planet that someone around here couldn't find some reason to rail against in the name of AP.
I love you.
post #45 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
Good point. I actually don't have a particular problem with that tradition, but couldn't one make the argument that that practice is at least as neglectful as putting a babe-in-bucket along the wall at an older child's Mommy and Me class?

Oh ... but the babies in Europe are in prams, not buckets ... that makes it better then. :
Hmmm outside the store with strangers milling around or in the same room w/in sight/earshot of mom. Nope, not the same.
post #46 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood View Post
Hmmm outside the store with strangers milling around or in the same room w/in sight/earshot of mom. Nope, not the same.
I don't know if that was worded wrong or what but it confused me..
post #47 of 120
I couldn't carry my babies around in those carseat simply because they are HEAVY.
post #48 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainCoastMama View Post
When I travelled across Asia and India, there were no bucket seats.

Babies were HELD in LAPS in cars, and balanced on laps on scooters.

Yeah, way more interactive :

I condone the lesser of the evils..you know, safety over death?

I still fail to see the issue here. Neglectful parenting will not start or end with bucket seats. We had one. We also used a sling. We also used a stroller. We walked baby around in-arms. We coslept instead of cribs.

So......hmm...
But the issue here is NOT buckets as carseats. Buckets are the lesser evil, when they are used in the car. I choose a crying baby over a dead baby.
It's buckets used outside of the car, that's the issue. And I see a HUGE difference between prams and carseats. It's not healthy for the spine of a newborn to be fixated in a semireclined position on a hard surface like a carseat all the time. That can lead to tortocollis and other medical conditions.
post #49 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstridS View Post
But the issue here is NOT buckets as carseats. Buckets are the lesser evil, when they are used in the car. I choose a crying baby over a dead baby.
It's buckets used outside of the car, that's the issue. And I see a HUGE difference between prams and carseats. It's not healthy for the spine of a newborn to be fixated in a semireclined position on a hard surface like a carseat all the time. That can lead to tortocollis and other medical conditions.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.
post #50 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledzepplon View Post
I disagree. Poor parenting has caused plagiocephaly to skyrocket, and poor parenting is to blame for propping bottles.
The "guns don't kill people" argument! I don't believe that the number of people with poor parenting skills has skyrocketed.

"Travel systems" are very popular, and they are specifically designed for babies to spend huge amounts of time in them.

Except there are no warning labels on them telling parents they should not use them for extended periods of time, some babies like to sleep in them and as many here have noted, they are very convenient in cold weather.

Here's a study of plagiocephaly patients that indicated 15% of them spent more than 4 hours each day in a bucket and 5.7% slept in carseats regularly. The researchers note:
Quote:
In recent years, we have seen a number of infants whose deformities seem to be associated with the extended use of these devices. The cranial distortion that occurs is generally more severe than the more common forms of plagiocephaly from sleeping supine on a mattress. The resulting head shape is often more complex than the typical parallelogram deformity commonly described.4,12 The distortion frequently results in multiple planes of asymmetry, increased posterior head height, and in some instances even "cornering" or "squaring" of the head.
Boston Children's Hospital: "Infants who sleep on their backs or in car seats without alternating positions for extended periods of time are also at a higher risk for deformational plagiocephaly."

And no, this isn't another "ap moms can always find something bad about anything" rant. You may not leave your baby in a bucket for hours each day, but *many* people do. And that does affect attachment. A 2006 Mothering article "Car Seats are for Cars" notes:
Quote:
In a Columbia University study, researchers gave either a baby seat or a soft, wearable infant carrier to mothers of low socioeconomic status who had recently given birth. After 13 months, the researchers found that the babies who had been transported in wearable carriers were significantly more likely to demonstrate a strong attachment to their mothers.
post #51 of 120
Sure there are people who abuse them! That has been said over and over. But that is not the fault of the bucket. That is the parent. I did use my bucket to carry dd in and out of the house to the car. It was hard as hell to carry that thing but it was far better than plopping a warm baby in a -20 degree car. It is very very cold here. Even now that dd is 4+ yo, I have almost frostbitten my hands messing around with her straps with no mittens on. I wish they made a bucket that just snapped for her now Does this make me some sort of baby abuser?!?!? Of course not! You cannot "outlaw" bad parenting. No one on here is advocating leaving a baby in a bucket for anywhere near the amount of time it takes to be bad for the baby's back. There is definite convenience to these devices and they can be completely compatible with AP. Also, my bucket was a life saver during dd's first nasty cold. The slightly upright position helped drain the snot and made her far more comfy for a few hours in the night. *gasp* Of course, I still held her most of the time and did what I could to make her comfy. But if she was asleep and comfortable, how AP is it to deny that just to check it off my AP list? Not to mention how great and AP it is to have a totally sleep-deprived, cranky, mom who spent the whole night holding baby upright rather than getting ANY sleep because they HAD to be AP enough.

I do not pretend to know the thoughts, motives, backstory, or anything else about other parents out in public. Does it really make people feel better to tsk tsk everyone else?
post #52 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisonR View Post
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.
When your child is in a stroller or pram how is their posture any different than in the "bucket"?

Bad parenting is one thing. But assuming bad parenting is another thing altogether. To paraphrase Calvin and Hobbes why call huge groups of people bad parents when there are so many good reasons to label individuals bad parents?
post #53 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisonR View Post
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.
(bolding mine)

I use public transportation much of the time, and when we are in the car it is almost always VERY short trips, like less than 5 miles round trip.

My baby probably wont be in the car very much, hence spending much less time in "the bucket" than I am guessing your child does.

Does that make me more attached than you because my baby will be in "the bucket" way less than yours??

Also, if you feel that buckets are so bad for posture why use it at all?
I am sure it is bad for posture when used in the car as well as being used out of the car.
So if your reason for passing judgment is that buckets are bad for posture then why is it okay for YOU to use one IN the car? :


I do agree that there need to be labels and information with these seats that explain that it isn't good to leave baby in the bucket too much. It is the current trend in the US to use the bucket/travel system excessively, and I think that a lot of parents don't see it as a bad thing. I think if people were more aware that it is important to get baby out of the bucket we wouldn't see so many parents abusing them.

Just my 2 cents
post #54 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
Sure there are people who abuse them! That has been said over and over. But that is not the fault of the bucket. That is the parent. I did use my bucket to carry dd in and out of the house to the car. It was hard as hell to carry that thing but it was far better than plopping a warm baby in a -20 degree car. It is very very cold here. Even now that dd is 4+ yo, I have almost frostbitten my hands messing around with her straps with no mittens on. I wish they made a bucket that just snapped for her now Does this make me some sort of baby abuser?!?!? Of course not! You cannot "outlaw" bad parenting. No one on here is advocating leaving a baby in a bucket for anywhere near the amount of time it takes to be bad for the baby's back. There is definite convenience to these devices and they can be completely compatible with AP. Also, my bucket was a life saver during dd's first nasty cold. The slightly upright position helped drain the snot and made her far more comfy for a few hours in the night. *gasp* Of course, I still held her most of the time and did what I could to make her comfy. But if she was asleep and comfortable, how AP is it to deny that just to check it off my AP list? Not to mention how great and AP it is to have a totally sleep-deprived, cranky, mom who spent the whole night holding baby upright rather than getting ANY sleep because they HAD to be AP enough.

I do not pretend to know the thoughts, motives, backstory, or anything else about other parents out in public. Does it really make people feel better to tsk tsk everyone else?
That was actually very ap, because sleeping upright in the car seat was what was most comfortable for her, so you were listening to her needs. I know some babies with colic are a lot happier sleeping in their carseats or swings... I think anti bucket seats is more of a supercrunch thing than ap personally. Everything has it's purpose, and everything can be misused.
post #55 of 120
you do realize not every parent can sling right? my back is seriously messed up (chiro helps for a day and then it's out of whack again.) so my son would ride in the roundabout in the car and then i'd transfer him to a bucket seat and either attach it to the carseat (which is a sit and stand and requires a bucket seat for a non-sitting baby) or the grocery cart. the only reason he wasn't in it in the car is because it was given to me by my sil who got it from a friend (so i didn't know the history of the seat to comfortably use it in the car.)
post #56 of 120
Hmmm... I wonder now how many of those slingin' mamas I used to envy thought of me as not attached to my c/s babes while I was struggling just to walk in the store so I could make sure I had enough food at home to eat so I could keep breast-feeding? :

I feel sad about the judgemental nature of some mamas assumptions about just seeing a child in a bucket outside of the car. Granted, I did rarely go out at that point, so I guess the risk of being judged was somewhat lessened by the fact that I had no support so I couldn't always do the things we needed... so in that way, I guess I stayed mostly out of the AP eye

At home, all of our babes have been in arms- even right after surgeries, even if that meant that I had to be sitting or lying down for hours at a time. The very seldom that I did go out with dh, if he was unable to hold one of the babes, or after we arrived somewhere our ds was actually sleeping (!), we let him sleep in the bucket for the whole maybe hour that we would have been out.

I dealt with a lot of feelings of guilt and sadness following my sections and when I read what others think about a practice that was for survival as being indicative of neglect or lack of attachment (even if they grant that it isn't in all cases- they still considered it possible or even likley about me when they saw me at the grocery store...), I feel thrust back to that time, feeling sad again, wishing I hadn't succombed to scare tactics and had coerced c/s's, that I hadn't been so ignorant and I guess I should expect to be continually reminded of that for the rest of my life as others judge me for doing my best because it looks like someone else's (assumedly) worst.

HOWEVER: I do think that the cultural acceptance of leaving a child in a bucket can lead to parents who would otherwise be willing and able to carry their infants to not even consider slinging or carrying; it may lead to ignorance of the real implications of it's use; it may be the reason for some parents to never really have to change their lifestyle enough to recognise the need their baby has for physical closeness since they have nothing to compare and contrast. Some babies don't cry. Ours would never have stood for being 'left' in the seat when they were awake, but they weren't accustomed to being in it except for short periods of time and always in the car or while sleeping after the ride.

We have friends whose baby hardly left the seat for the first year of his life; he was obviously delayed in motor development early on and that persisted until he began to complain enough that they started taking him out (at around 11 months!). He walked late, he didn't have spatial awareness at his sides (never reached outward from his arms- just toward front- until much later, that is), and had all the typical signs of bucket-seat over-use. The child slept in it every night and spent all day in it too. I don't think their use of it was malicious or purposefully neglectful; they were ignorant and didn't have cultural or other impetus to change the way they went about their days since they could just stick him in and do what they normally do. It is sad, but I really don't think that this case can be paralled with mine. The two are so different, and yet even given their obvious neglect (though I believe unintentional), I don't judge their motivations toward their child; I know they love him. I know they try to maintain connection which is why the mama breastfed until she became pg with dc2, so dc1 was already past two. I think they lack education, and that some accepted mainstream practices allow them to continue in their ignorance.

I just don't think it's beneficial or kind to assume anything about someone's parenting or attachment from a chance encounter at the mall.
post #57 of 120
I can't speak for Denmark, but I lived in Sweden when dd1 was a newborn 5 years ago. At that time, I remember reading an article warning parents not to leave babies in the bucket for more than 45 minutes at time as it was bad for their posture. I saw them used in Sweden quite regularly and as I said that was 5 years ago, so not really new. We didn't have a car so we used the pram way more (we could fit a week's worth of groceries in the basket!), but other people in my moms group used them and left baby in them quite regularly.
post #58 of 120
Infant car seats are child restraints to be used in a motor vehicle. The whole travel system thing drives me crazy. 99% of infant car seats are not to be used on top of shopping carts either. Seeing every parent with them perched percariously atop a shopping cart scares the crap out of me. I am in complete agreement that there needs to be more education out there on the dangers of leaving babies in them for extended periods of time. More focus needs to be on the fact that they are child restraints to be used to secure your child in a motor vehicle and not on the convenience aspect.
post #59 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschildren View Post
Seeing every parent with them perched percariously atop a shopping cart scares the crap out of me.
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?
post #60 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?
agreed, when ds used one, it locked into the cart. I feel more scared for the babies in the bucket INside the cart, because the mom wanted to use the seat area for her purse:
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