Is an injunction necessary?

[somemama]

I'm asking this question for the mamas here who have decided not to circ their sons but haven't convinced their husbands not to circ.

On the noharmm website (www.noharmm.org) it mentions one action these mamas can take--getting a court injunction against the procedure. I'm wondering how necessary this is? Or will the hospitals generally respect the wishes of the mother to not circumcise?

[Arduinna]

I'm so thankful that my dh agrees and I don't have to worry about this. But if he didn't, I'd take any and all precautions to protect my son (if I had one) from being mutilated.

[merpk]

Isn't the mother the last word in the hospital as to the newborn's care and treatment? I mean, could a father in any circumstance tell the hospital to do something if the mother has said not to ... meaning, if the mother has said it to the hospital staff.

With the understanding that mistakes happen, I always thought the mother trumps the father in these things, purely as far as hospital policy with newborn babies is concerned.

:

Any lawyers around here who could shed some light on this?

[somemama]

Well, that's what I'm wondering........will the hospital accept just the father's signature on the circ form, or does it need to contain the mother's signature? Or does it vary by hospital?

And does anyone know how difficult it would be to get a court injunction against a circumcision?

[Sarah]

Well- a refusal trumps a request.

the mother's will does not WIN... the REFUSAL always wins... if the mother wants a circ and the father refuses... she does not win... the benefit of the doubt falls to the child and the no harm...

either parent has the full power to refuse a harmful unnecissary surgery... no person has the right to insist on one as long as the child has an advocate.... that's all this whole circumcision thing is about anyway... Doctors taking adantage of the child's lack of an advocate... as soon as the child has one- they will scurry off like coackroaches from a light.

Dr.s know that circumcision is harm and that doing it if a parent is fighting against it- is criminal assault. they know that- and it scares the bejeebers out of them.

You should not ever make assumptions about anything and you should be proactive. In this case I would not get an injunction, but I would get a circumcision refusal form and have my OB sign it and have it put in your hospital records... make sure that this is done in advance.

When my son was born, (placenta precia emergency hemmoraging situation) my husband was asked the circumcision question while I was knocked out under general anesthesia. I do not know if this was the official "We'll do it now if you say yes" queston or if it was merely curiosity... or a chance for the Dr. to slip in his opinion against circumcision... but all I am saying is that my husband was asked when I was incapacitated, in another room, and nearly dead from blood loss. This (that birth scenario)is not the sort of thing you can plan for. Because the answer was NO... I don't know more. But if my husband had not gotten over his circumcision issues- that could have been a problem.

Get the refusal form: http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/protection/

Good luck. I'm sorry that you hav to concern yourself with this. That really bites.

Love Sarah

[Frankly Speaking]

This question breaks down into 3 parts. (1) what is legal, (2) what normally would happen and (3) what could happen.

(1) It is legal for one parent to provide the informed consent. It can be either parent.

(2) Normally the OB/GYN or Pediatrician would be aware of the mother's feelings about the issue and if there was a dispute between the parents, would demure until the issue is resolved. A father would be suspect if he suddenly showed up on their doorstep with a baby wanting a circumcision and the physician would probably investigate further before performing the procedure. That would be for the physician's own legal and ethical protection.

(3) If the physician strongly supports circumcision and is unethical, it is possible he/she would perform it. If the mother had made her intentions known to the physician, he/she could be in for some legal problems.

I have no doubt it has happened and will happen again. I know one man who went in for a vasectomy at age 42. His wife conspired with the surgeon to have him circumcised and it was done. That was neither legal or ethical but it happened.

The best thing is to have a birth plan that clearly spells out "no circumcision" and make sure that all of the care givers are aware of your feelings beforehand. That includes the OB/GYN and the pediatrician as well as nurses. If this is done, it is highly unlikely that a father would be able to get it done. If the father knows there will be hell-to-pay and that all concerned have been put on notice, it is even more unlikely to happen. If there were a court ordered injunction with the potential of jail time, that would be even more of a deterrent. I know of a divorced New Jersey couple who took it to court because the mother wanted the circumcision and the father didn't. The father was afraid it would be done against his wishes and filed in court, getting an injunction until the case was settled. In the end, the court sided with the father and the baby won.






Frank

[nomadic]

I know one man who went in for a vasectomy at age 42. His wife conspired with the surgeon to have him circumcised and it was done. That was neither legal or ethical but it happened.

OMG Frank!! Did he take sue the surgeon? Did he divorce his wife?

[somemama]

Originally posted by Sarah




Get the refusal form: http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/protection/

Good luck. I'm sorry that you hav to concern yourself with this. That really bites.

Love Sarah

Thanks, but I just want to clarify that I'm not asking for myself--I have an intact son and an intactivist dh.

I'm just wondering for all of the mamas who periodically post here, asking how to deal with husbands who want sons circ'd. I'm wondering if the noharmm website is right--that an injunction is necessary.

[Sarah]

pshew! I was really thrown by the Q because I thought that your family was on the same page with you!

love Sarah

[Arduinna]

OMG Frank that is such a horrid betrayal of trust by the wife and the Dr. I can't ever imagine someone getting over that and continuing the realtionship. Some people are truly sick

[Frankly Speaking]

The man did divorce the wife but did not sue the doctor. He did take some action against the doctor with the medical board in his area. I don't know what that action was or the outcome. I caught in an off handed remark he made and later questioned him about it. He was very reluctant to even talk about it and only told me the major parts and none of the details. I could see that he was getting so angry that I felt it unwise to push any more. It had happened 10 years or more prior to my talking with him and there was still a clearly recognizeable rage about it.

Hearing it for the first time made me outraged. However, as I thought about it, the realization came upon me that it was no different than what is done 3,500 times a day across America except for the age of the victim.




Frank