UU's: christian or not? - Page 2

[USAmma]

Wikipedia has a pretty good answer for the OP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

I was told that the UU church is officially Christian but they do not believe in the holy trinity and certain other aspects of many other Christian churches.

[Black Orchid]

well, we are UU, but definately not Christian. Christ is never mentioned in the services and the services aren't like any Christian church I have ever been to...

we do have a Jesus study-group as part of Adult RE. I am planning to attend the one coming up. Our church is pretty cool... it is a healthy blend of former Catholics, Jews, Buddhists and agnostics with a number of athiests thrown in the mix. WE are nowhere near in danger of being a Christian church

My DH describes it as the "Anti-church" It is the place you go to learn how to be a better person and center yourself for the week. They draw from all kinds of philosophers... mostly modern... and the sermons each week are so diverse, but definately on topic. To me, it is the perfect church!

[Meiri]

Depends on the individual UU, depends on the congregation.

This particular UU is Pagan tyvm.:
As is her daughter, for now at least.

My UU son is agnostic if not outright atheist.

[feyfollow]

I belong to the local UU, but visit on rare occasions. The Reverend (who could not "move" me if I were a feather) is a Humanist, as is most of the congregation. I was raised Indian (that's non-PC for NA), of the Taino tribe, and incorporated Paganism into my life (starting to lean back to my roots). Our minister tells us that Pagans are blind, that these are just new beliefs, there are books that could tell us the truth, yada yada. So, I just go when we have guest speakers. The Rabbi we had recently was the best.

The kids RE class is great, as they teach EVERYTHING. However, you really need to keep it up with your own children. One visitor thanked Jesus for something, and I thought the entire congregation was going to : at the poor lady. I mean really, how mature was that???!!!

Oh, I am sooooo babbling. If you ask our Rev., we are a Post-Xtian society, whatever the hell that means:.

[DBZ]

The UUA doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. At my UU all sorts of religious goodness is pulled from Christianity, Judiasm, and Earth centered religions. Last Sunday we celebrated Halloween, Samhain, Day of the Dead, and all Soul's Day. I have a Chrisitan friend who is happy to hear about our sermons and such, but she is very Jesus focused and would not be happy in a UU church.

[Potty Diva]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Some members are Christians and some are not. IME, you'll find that UU members are pretty diverse. Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Pantheist, etc and so on.

The history of the Church/organization has definite Christian roots though, if that's what you mean.

And this is what I found through my experience with Unitarian Universalism.

Not Christian as in the organization believes in the trinity, but some members are Christian and to me the organization does have many elements of Christianity.

[Potty Diva]

Originally Posted by feyfollow

I belong to the local UU, but visit on rare occasions. The Reverend (who could not "move" me if I were a feather) is a Humanist, as is most of the congregation. I was raised Indian (that's non-PC for NA), of the Taino tribe, and incorporated Paganism into my life (starting to lean back to my roots). Our minister tells us that Pagans are blind, that these are just new beliefs, there are books that could tell us the truth, yada yada. So, I just go when we have guest speakers. The Rabbi we had recently was the best.

The kids RE class is great, as they teach EVERYTHING. However, you really need to keep it up with your own children. One visitor thanked Jesus for something, and I thought the entire congregation was going to : at the poor lady. I mean really, how mature was that???!!!

Oh, I am sooooo babbling. If you ask our Rev., we are a Post-Xtian society, whatever the hell that means:.

It means chrisitianity is a dead religion and no longer relevant to today's modern, enlightened society. The UU is the result. Post, being after christianity.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

It means chrisitianity is a dead religion and no longer relevant to today's modern, enlightened society. The UU is the result. Post, being after christianity.

I don't agree with this statement, either as a response to the previous post, or in general.

1. Clearly Christianity is not a dead religion - it is active, changing, and pretty much the opposite of dead.
2. Christianity permeates US society. Whether it ought to be relevant to today's society is open to debate, but it definitely is relevant because so much of our society is composed of Christians.
3. I think the PP's minister was refering to that particular congregation as Post-Xtian, meaning that it used to be Christian, but now is not. I don't think the minister was referring to society as a whole. At least I hope not, because that would make no sense at all. American society is not "after Christianity", it is in the middle of it.
4. UU is not the result of Christianity no longer being relevant to today's modern society. UU is the merger of two Christian sects that were reacting to very specific Christian theology points. Unitarians were rejecting the concept of the Trinity and Universalists were rejecting the concept of determinism. The two groups merged in the 1960's forming UU. I don't think UU can be called a Christian religion (I go into this in more depth in my previous posts), but UU as a religion definitely does not promote or support the idea that Christianity is no longer relevant to today's society. This is clear from the 4th source of UU:

Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

Note: I am a UU and do not consider myself Christian.

[lilyka]

She was just defining "post-Christian". A lot of people think that as a society we are "over" Christianity and moving on to something else. I have my own feelings towards that attitude . And i suppose a case can be made for that, especially in the western world, but i don't know that it is entirely true either.

[Potty Diva]

Originally Posted by lilyka

She was just defining "post-Christian". A lot of people think that as a society we are "over" Christianity and moving on to something else. I have my own feelings towards that attitude . And i suppose a case can be made for that, especially in the western world, but i don't know that it is entirely true either.

Thanks mama and I can't completely and totally honestly say I didn't see a response like Adele's coming. It hit my a split second after replying that the tone might come off as anti-christian.

But hey, I'm a Catholic and many think we aren't Christian to begin with

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by lilyka

She was just defining "post-Christian". A lot of people think that as a society we are "over" Christianity and moving on to something else. I have my own feelings towards that attitude . And i suppose a case can be made for that, especially in the western world, but i don't know that it is entirely true either.

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Thanks mama and I can't completely and totally honestly say I didn't see a response like Adele's coming. It hit my a split second after replying that the tone might come off as anti-christian.

But hey, I'm a Catholic and many think we aren't Christian to begin with

I was not concerned that you came off as anti-christian. I am not Christian myself. My problem was with the line "The UU is the result" This is more than just "defining post-Christian". This is making a statement about UU that is not true. As a UU, I felt I should respond, particularly given the topic of this thread which is all about what UU is and is not.

[Potty Diva]

Then you are still misunderstanding my statement.

I am not saying the UU is the result. But the idea of post-christian, as define by theologists and as explained in my religion courses is that those who are within the post-christian movement believe the result of being "over" christianity is the enlightened, inclusive, all-encompassing UU. This isn't a slight to the UU organization. These aspects and elements are not a negatice statement.

YOU may not belive this, but UU's who are in the post-christian camp DO believe this.

Whether true or not is another story. I don't believe or not believe it, nor am I bothered by it.

[Potty Diva]

And you should not be taking issue with me, since I don't define anything or anyone, but with those who have defined post-christian.

Thus defined, a post-Christian world is one where Christianity is no longer the dominant civil religion, but one that has, gradually over extended periods of time, assumed values, culture, and worldviews that are not necessarily Christian (and further may not necessarily reflect any world religion's standpoint)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Christian

After some searching I have found that the UUA DOES consider itself post-christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitari...st_Association

[Adele_Mommy]

Here is your first post (emphasis added by me):

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

It means chrisitianity is a dead religion and no longer relevant to today's modern, enlightened society. The UU is the result. Post, being after christianity.

Now you say this (emphasis is mine):

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

Then you are still misunderstanding my statement.
I am not saying the UU is the result.

That may not be what you are saying now, but that is precisely what you said in your first post - word for word! You are welcome to change you mind or clarify that you did not say what you meant or intended to say, of course. But to say I "misunderstood" (and am still misunderstanding) is not correct.

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

But the idea of post-christian, as define by theologists and as explained in my religion courses is that those who are within the post-christian movement believe the result of being "over" christianity is the enlightened, inclusive, all-encompassing UU.

I have no idea what you mean by "enlightened, inclusive, all-encompassing UU". UU, in this thread at least, refers to Unitarian Universalism, which is a specific association of congregations formed by the merger of two Christian denominations. It sounds to me as if you are referring to something else - some sort of universal religious world view or something. If that is the case, then please do not refer to this as UU, because using the same term (or in this case abbreviation) to mean two completely different things is only going to cause confusion.

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

This isn't a slight to the UU organization. These aspects and elements are not a negatice statement.

And I was not offended. I simply said I did not agree with you. I did not think your statement was negative. I thought it was an inaccurate representation of UU.

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

And you should not be taking issue with me, since I don't define anything or anyone, but with those who have defined post-christian.]

I think it is extremely odd to happily thank someone for saying "She was just defining post-Christian" and now say "I don't define anything."

Originally Posted by Potty Diva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Christian

After some searching I have found that the UUA DOES consider itself post-christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitari...st_Association

Wikipedia would not be my first choice for finding out what the UUA considers itself. For that I would go to the source. Here is the UUA Website if you are interested. However, I personally find Wikipedia to be a perfectly acceptable reference for finding out general information about a topic, in this case what someone thinks about UUA.

Here is a quote from the Wikipedia page you reference:

"Post Christian, post-Christian or postChristian is a term used to describe a personal world view, ideology, religious movement or society that is no longer rooted in the language and assumptions of Christianity, though it had previously been in an environment of ubiquitous Christianity (i.e., Christendom). Thus defined, a post-Christian world is one where Christianity is no longer the dominant civil religion, but one that has, gradually over extended periods of time, assumed values, culture, and worldviews that are not necessarily Christian (and further may not necessarily reflect any world religion's standpoint). This situation applies to much of Europe, in particular in Central and Northern Europe, where no more than half of the residents in those lands profess belief in a monotheistically-conceived deity."

I actually think this is an excellent answer to the question of what feyfollow's minister might have meant by post-Christian. I also can see where UUA (or at least some UU's) would see themselves in this definition.

I appreciate your researching this and finding this definition. I did not know how to respond to feyfollow's post myself, because I also did not know what the minister meant.

I think this Wikipedia citation would have been a good response to feyfollow's post. I also think it supports my argument much more than your own, particularly this part: "religious movement or society that is no longer rooted in the language and assumptions of Christianity, though it had previously been in an environment of ubiquitous Christianity" Nowhere in this does it say that Christianity is a dead religion or that it no longer has any relevance to modern society. Individual UUs may believe these things (and I am sure there are some who do), but I am confident that these ideas cannot be part of the definition of the term post-Christianity as the UUA might use it to refer to itself. This would contradict the sources as I mentioned earlier. This assertion is also borne out in the actual statement that I assume you are referring to when you say the UUA does consider itself post-Christian:

Here is the quote from the first UUA president on this same Wikipedia page: "Dana McLean Greeley, the first president of the Unitarian Universalist Association, described Unitarian Universalism as post-Christian insofar as Christians no longer considered it Christian, while persons of other religions would likely describe it as Christian, as least historically." This definition of post-Christian is completely different from your original definition. In fact this definition fits pretty darn well with what I first said about UU being Christian, which is that most Christians would say UU is not Christian but historically it was a Christian religion.

[Potty Diva]

OMG.

I did not make the definition up.

I did not change my mind

The UUA actually says they are post-christian. FROM the UUA page.

I didn't say it was the result. I don't know how I can make this more clear. I am really trying.

These are not my words and yes you are still misunderstanding. I am sorry there is such a huge gap in communication here.

[Potty Diva]

read your post again, and yeah there is a big misunderstanding on your part. The quote you used from wiki, was one I was first going to use.

I think when I added the word dead, which would mean for me, not useful, as apposed to gone from the face of the earth, that may have been where the confusion started.

Weird.

[feyfollow]

EE gads, I was being a wise guy ladies. I so totally did not mean to stir the pot. I just realllly dislike the reverend. Luckily, she disappears 3 months of the year, and I enjoy it then.

My minister, and half of our congregation, is Humanist. However, we have Jewish, Pagan, Hindu, this Taino Indian, Christian, and a whole lotta Buddhist folks floating around.

I meant that our UU society (since it was in the UU thread) was post x-tian, not ALL of society. Her sermons are exclusively Humanists, except during Yom Kippur. However, I don't completely agree w/the UUA saying that all of the UUs are post xtian, because I have been to a few congregations that you would think you were in a typical protestant service. At one point Polytheism & the Hindu/Native American structure was the way to go, along came monotheism & it took over (and still has a stronghold), but different beliefs are starting to emerge, my people still hold/reteaching their Great Spirit, Great Mother, and the "demi-gods" we have. Heck most of the same stories have been recycled by each religion, just with a different name slapped onto it. These things happen, beliefs change, people change, and cultures change. So, thank you Adele for explaining the post xtian thing for me. I just need to visit the UUA more often.


I know that the UUA does the lip service, but each congregation is so completely different when you get down to it. My rev. will not even allow the discussion of a CUUPS program, thinks we beat the enviormental issues like a dead horse, and will very rarely interject anything from another viewpoint. She will tell you flat out that you are in her UU house, that UUism has it's own hx, and there is no straying from her Humanist beliefs.

Oh gosh, I bought up my belief in fate up on day and :...

Again, sorry to stir it up...

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by feyfollow

I know that the UUA does the lip service, but each congregation is so completely different when you get down to it. My rev. will not even allow the discussion of a CUUPS program, thinks we beat the enviormental issues like a dead horse, and will very rarely interject anything from another viewpoint. She will tell you flat out that you are in her UU house, that UUism has it's own hx, and there is no straying from her Humanist beliefs.

Oh gosh, I bought up my belief in fate up on day and :...

Again, sorry to stir it up...

I'm so sorry that your rev. is like that. Honestly, she sounds awful. And not following UU principles either! What about tolerance and supporting each individual's spiritual journey?? I'm glad you can get the benefits from the guest speakers and the RE program in spite of the minister. I don't think I could do that.

You should check out the UU thread in the main Spirituality forum. Lots of great UUs there with a wide variety of beliefs and very friendly and supportive I think.

Thanks for the follow-up post.

Peace.

Adele

[lilyka]

thinking more on the post christian comment that goes back to the original post. saying you are post Christian is still using Christianity as your starting point. rather than saying "we are a multi religous organization they are saying "we are group of people who have moved on from Christianity" So saying post Christian really actualy says a lot about the that fellowship particular fellowship at least.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by lilyka

thinking more on the post christian comment that goes back to the original post. saying you are post Christian is still using Christianity as your starting point. rather than saying "we are a multi religous organization they are saying "we are group of people who have moved on from Christianity" So saying post Christian really actualy says a lot about the that fellowship particular fellowship at least.

Very good point and well said.

I have never heard that term in my UU congregation. I wonder if that lack of use, also says something about my particular congregation and its view of itself.