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I started a Princess battle at preschool - Page 9

post #161 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschildren View Post
thismama. Thank you for your insightful posts and thorough explanations in this thread.
: Thank you! I've been much more able to articulate my position on this issue tonight than I have in discussions past. I guess I get smarter when I'm procrastinating on essay writing.

Now I gotta go feed my little screamer...
post #162 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
I for one never looked at a barbie or princess and said "i want to be like that and look like that" and neither did any of my friends. But they did end up growing up saying "i want to look like janet jackson/britney spears/current starlet in movies" and they got negative images about their bodies from tabloids and their peers.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps we play out in adulthood the dynamics we learned in childhood? Perhaps celebrity women and starlets are the grown up princesses...
post #163 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Has it occurred to you that perhaps we play out in adulthood the dynamics we learned in childhood? Perhaps celebrity women and starlets are the grown up princesses...
post #164 of 331
thismama you freaking rock. I love your posts on this thread.
post #165 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
and there are plenty of women who had all that and came out fine without any issues. blanket statements dont make it the truth. sure, some women have body issues, and if you ask alot of them, it didnt come from a princess or barbie, it came from their familys, their peers, adult television and marketing and the diet industry.
So, you're saying that you know where this comes from, but that you refuse to sensor it for your child? I don't let my children watch the news because it's an unrealistic concentration of the negatives of the world. It's not reality at all, it's "be afraid, be very afraid" so I sensor it. I try to sensor as much commercialism as possible for the the same reasons. I don't want my children to be victimized by it. I don't want negative outside influences having free and open access to my children. Those things are our responsibility to sensor. We can't expect anyone who makes money off our children to put the children before their pocketbooks, so it's up to us as parents.

Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)
post #166 of 331
I don't know about any responsibility to censor, but what about behavior modeling and gentle nudging? There's a way to let kids know that certain things exist which we don't approve of, but acknowledging their existence and talking about why we don't want to emulate them is IMO much more effective than simply saying those things don't exist. I don't like Barbie and I don't like Disney Princesses (or any princesses, frankly, who don't try to put on their own capes and save their own damn selves), but I don't plan to try to wipe their existence from the face of the earth with my (not-yet-born) daughter - I will instead strive to teach her why I think they suck. Just like with my (born) son - I don't like GI Joe, but I'm not going to censor the existence of soldiers and super-macho role models. I'm just going to provide him with discussion opportunities and alternatives. And I'm going to make the alternatives look cooler.

To me, censorship or outright forbidding is a surefire way to make a kid curious about something.
post #167 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
i think the more they have lack of exposure, the harder it is for them to process and overcome it when they are no longer children.
This is patently false.
post #168 of 331
I don't have time to write much at the moment, but I wanted to say THANK YOU, thismama, for all of your eloquent words in this thread. ITA with pretty much everything you've said. And this, in particular, bears repeating:

"I also think we create our culture, we don't have to just sit by and passively consume it. I find it pretty funny/sad that people are arguing that Disney and princess obsession are an important part of cultural mythology without which children would be missing out! We are agents here, just because a giant corporation spams our environments with something in an effort to embed it into our psyches, doesn't mean we are participating in 'culture' in a positive way by allowing it to infiltrate our children's minds and lives.

I am not a purist by any means, my child is watching Treehouse right now. But the argument that this is our culture, or that the negative effects of messages that communicate rigid and very seperate gender role expectations for boys and girls can be easily neutralized by some parental explanation, is a scary one to me."

And this:

"Children IMO lack the capacity to really take in these messages about gender, which are so pervasive, and criticize them without internalizing them. Hell, *I* lack that capacity. Critique is my defence but it doesn't mean they don't infiltrate my psyche in unhealthy ways. It doesn't mean I wouldn't rather be free of those ideas altogether, and that my mind and imagination wouldn't be freer for it. Because it most certainly would. How could I expect better psychological defence to such insideous imagery from my child? Much better to not expose a developing mind to them at all, than to let them in and give her a defence with which to attempt to repel them and minimize the damage. That is simply nuts."

So, so true.
post #169 of 331
Well, we do not censor. But I am also not going to go out and purposely expose her to these things either. If dd told me that all she wanted for Christmas was a bubble gum pink Barbie McMansion complete with the tanning bed, Botox room, and optional plasma screen TV, we would likely try our best to accommodate that (assuming we had the budget for it). But dd (4 yo) does not know Barbie exists. I am not going to drag her into Walmart to show her everything she is missing when she is currently quite happy with her non-branded baby dolls and other simple toys. If I could just keep the freaking DENTIST from flashing all that, then I would be a much happier mom. I fully expect her to pick this stuff up from other kids (although so far none of her friends seem to be in the know either) and from just generally living in the world. I did not expect my neighborhood dentist to be the messenger.

Should I be worried that she will have trouble "processing it as an adult" because our values and lifestyle do not lead us to even see this stuff in the normal course of our day? Should we start taking field trips to Wallyworld to see all the flashy plastic crap in an attempt to keep her out of therapy as an adult? I think not. I am not worried at all. I am just wallowing in my blissful days of being Dora-free while the getting is good
post #170 of 331
thismama

Just because a corporation produces it, doesn't mean my family must consume it - as if all video media were instantly "culture" just because it is ubiquitous. Why does it seem to me that so many MDC moms look at media images differently than, say, food or medical choices. I mean, yeah, my supermarket is filled with trans-fat and high fructose corn syrup, but I don't buy it. Am I censoring my kids? Will they not be able to recognize the goodness of whole foods unless I let them eat that crap for comparison? Maybe if I feed them some trans-fat and then talk to them about why it is bad for them, it will negate its artery clogging badness? Shall I give them the new rotovirus vaccine just because big pharma produced it and the peds are pushing it? Mothers here "censor" all sorts of stuff that our kids would probably "tough out," and seem just fine after experiencing, but for some reason, the moms who think it's OK to exclude characters with questionable moral character often get flamed. To me, this seems to be :
post #171 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post

What you do think?

My point is, what is fair for one gender should be extended to both. It's hard to tell a child "superhero lunchboxes are not allowed" when a girl child has a Barbie lunchbox.
It's hard for me to reason that using beauty for problem solving is any better than using physical power for problem solving... (the girls often play Sleeping Beauty - I'm dead, someone needs to kiss me and bring me back to life, I'm so pretty in my coma.... HAHA)
I think you have a great point. I think the current policy sounds unfair to boys.
post #172 of 331
Thread Starter 
thismama, thank you so much for GETTING it. It's probably no coincidence that here we are, two queers, who are railing against the Barbification of little girls.

Sleeping Beauty is crap! I don't care how much anyone is a devotee of pop culture or whatever. She was in a COMA, out of it, sealed shut in a GLASS coffin (why a glass coffin you ask? Why, so that her silent comatose beauty could shine through). And a man comes and kisses her. She comes to life. She is then devoted to him. She marries and has babies. She gets to be princess and others bow down to her.

Sleeping Beauty is one of the "top" selling Disney Princesses. There are more lunchboxes and tee shirts and backpacks of her than any of the others. Why is she a fave? Maybe it's because she has the pink dress. Maybe it's because she's the WHITE Blue-Eyed blonde. A lot of the moms I know say their daughter likes Sleeping Beauty best because she's "the prettiest one" - she's the most white/blonde of all the dolls. Doesn't that make you sick? Come on!

Want to hear what Disney itself has to say about Sleeping Beauty? Here ya go! This is straight off the Disney Princesses web site
""By the time sleeping Beauty is awakened from her slumber by the prince, she has been transformed from a sheltered girl into a mature young woman ready to become a bride."
"
see for yourself:
http://disney.go.com/princess/html/main_iframe.html

What brought about this amazing transformation of the preferred Aryan princess? Being kissed. By a Prince. She transforms from a comatose sheltered girl, to a "mature young woman ready to be a bride."
post #173 of 331
Not to go off topic, but, in the older versions of Sleeping Beauty, wasn't it, um, a bit more (rape) than a kiss that woke her up? Must look this up now.
post #174 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post
thismama, thank you so much for GETTING it. It's probably no coincidence that here we are, two queers, who are railing against the Barbification of little girls.

Sleeping Beauty is crap! I don't care how much anyone is a devotee of pop culture or whatever. She was in a COMA, out of it, sealed shut in a GLASS coffin (why a glass coffin you ask? Why, so that her silent comatose beauty could shine through). And a man comes and kisses her. She comes to life. She is then devoted to him. She marries and has babies. She gets to be princess and others bow down to her.

Sleeping Beauty is one of the "top" selling Disney Princesses. There are more lunchboxes and tee shirts and backpacks of her than any of the others. Why is she a fave? Maybe it's because she has the pink dress. Maybe it's because she's the WHITE Blue-Eyed blonde. A lot of the moms I know say their daughter likes Sleeping Beauty best because she's "the prettiest one" - she's the most white/blonde of all the dolls. Doesn't that make you sick? Come on!

Want to hear what Disney itself has to say about Sleeping Beauty? Here ya go! This is straight off the Disney Princesses web site
""By the time sleeping Beauty is awakened from her slumber by the prince, she has been transformed from a sheltered girl into a mature young woman ready to become a bride."
"
see for yourself:
http://disney.go.com/princess/html/main_iframe.html

What brought about this amazing transformation of the preferred Aryan princess? Being kissed. By a Prince. She transforms from a comatose sheltered girl, to a "mature young woman ready to be a bride."
Yikes!

Is that a movie?

I need to get out more......
post #175 of 331
Thread Starter 
I don't know if it's a movie (probably is...). I just got that quote from the stinking PACKAGING that goes along with the Sleeping Beauty stuff that is sold - ya know, the lunchboxes, t-shirts, etc.

It would not surprise me if the original fable was a rape-fantasy. Especially since it clearly reads (via Disney) that she goes from being an innocent sheltered girl to a mature woman ready to be a bride.... (BARF)

All you folks defending the idea of superheros as cultural icons, you are missing my point. I just told the school if you are banning Spidey, you better get Sleeping Beauty off her back and out of the preschool too.

I am ok with generic "I'm a princess" play, especially if that princess is allowed to be anything other than white, blue eyed, blonde, thin, and dependent on men to save her.
This is not about Paperbag Princess or any of those rare excpetions.
post #176 of 331
Hey mama,

I keep thinking it would be so awesome if one of the girls' mamas would get on board with you. So it can't be characterized as sour grapes, KWIM? My problem is not with the genders of the characters, just the commercialization in general. I hate that all kids are being made pawns in the corporate zeal to separate us all from as much of our hard-earned cash as possible. UGH. And ITA there's bias against queerness happening there. People can be such idiots :
However, it sure made for a rip roaring thread!!! (thanks thismama! God you saved me from a lotta typing )
laoxinat
post #177 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post
thismama, thank you so much for GETTING it. It's probably no coincidence that here we are, two queers, who are railing against the Barbification of little girls.

Sleeping Beauty is crap! I don't care how much anyone is a devotee of pop culture or whatever. She was in a COMA, out of it, sealed shut in a GLASS coffin (why a glass coffin you ask? Why, so that her silent comatose beauty could shine through). And a man comes and kisses her.
I'm so with you, Kincaid... And I'm a lesbian, too! (Coincidence?!)
It pisses me off to hear about the homophobia you're dealing with at your kid's school. Okay, we're assuming homophobia is what's behind the need for "safety" and "anonymous" feedback... that's really freakin horrible, that people are like that.

And yeah, Sleeping Beauty sure IS crap. Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White, are sexually assaulted by the princes. Comatose = unable to consent. It enrages me that Disney promotes this.

And OMG, I was once subjected to "Barbie and the Twelve Dancing Princesses" when a 3-year-old I was babysitting for had it on when I arrived. It's just as hideous and vapid as the title sounds; it seems more like an animated Saturday Night Live skit than anything else. I tried blocking most of it out, but one scene that stuck with me is when Barbie ("Princess" someone; I forget) somehow had the ability to wish for anything at all in the world and it would come true. She stands there going, "I wish... I wish........I wish for......." and the tension builds, and I'm filling in the blank with "An end to white supremacist capitalist patriarchy!!", when Barbie finally blurts out, "...BALLET MUSIC!"
And I nearly vomited up my lunch.
post #178 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by water View Post
This is patently false.
to you maybe, but I didnt say it is proven or studies show, i said i think. we will just ave to agree to disagree
post #179 of 331
I haven't read the last 5 pages - is there an update to the school situation?

(And FWIW, I am straight, and the whole being awakened with a kiss thing makes my skin crawl.)
post #180 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
If you read batman comics, or even watch the critically acclaimed and widely respected late 1990s batman cartoon, you will see why the original title was "Detective Comics". Batman is a detective first and a butt-kicker second.

Spiderman was the first superhero with real problems. He is a scientist, a teenager, and a super hero. In the comic world he INVENTED the web shooter device and the fluid that gives him web (even though in the movie it is an organic mutation). He is a problem solver who uses his inventions and his powers in an attempt to solve problems without hurting people, people who want to hurt him.

The most appealing heroes are the ones we can relate to. The ones who use their brains to solve problems, and happen to have super powers. In the case of batman, careful planning, problem solving, and inventing ARE HIS ONLY POWER. He is a normal human who uses his brain, determination, and lifestyle to fight crime.

Anyone who does not understand the basic human need for mythology should be against teaching shakespeare, Roman and Greek history and mythology, religion, and basically all fiction. It is disturbing to me that a university research lab lacks basic understanding of human psychology, or at the very least does not care about it.
I was thinking along these lines...when people start banning books, comic characters, ideas, etc.--watch out...you are on a slippery slope!
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