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I started a Princess battle at preschool - Page 11

post #201 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Very Snoofly View Post
I certainly understand the concerns about marketing to kids and the more vapid aspects of Disney princesses, but I disagree that the "stuff" in and of itself limits or prohibits imaginative play.
\

I agree 100%
post #202 of 331
If we're concerned about our kids losing their childhood innocence, then I think we should use caution in letting adult anxieties limit or regulate their play and their interests.
post #203 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
If we're concerned about our kids losing their childhood innocence, then I think we should use caution in letting adult anxieties limit or regulate their play and their interests.
Good point! Much better to leave that regulation to the multinationals! Whatever was I thinking all these pages...
post #204 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Good point! Much better to leave that regulation to the multinationals! Whatever was I thinking all these pages...
What?
post #205 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelzharon View Post
There is nothing wrong with letting little children play, and act out as little princesses or superheros, or even cowboys and indians.
There is something VERY wrong with letting little children play "cowboys and Indians".

FWIW, I agree with basically every post thismama has made in this thread, so I'll just say a big : to her.
post #206 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
What?
Our children get mass marketed to by giant corporations. This is not about letting them find what draws their interest naturally. These companies have entire departments aimed at decoding our children's psychology and figuring out how to develop toys that they will obsess on, and ensuring those toys and images are all around them and infiltrating their environments.

It's not like if we are hands off it will be simply up to our kids what they play with.
post #207 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJamie View Post

FWIW, I agree with basically every post thismama has made in this thread, so I'll just say a big : to her.
Thanks!
post #208 of 331
Quote:
If we're concerned about our kids losing their childhood innocence, then I think we should use caution in letting adult anxieties limit or regulate their play and their interests.
Huh??

Do you really think that adult interests are not already influencing children's play to a HUGE extent? This is BIG, BIG business. It's everywhere. As has been pointed out in this thread, it's hard to even buy a freaking toothbrush without a licensed character on it. (Yes, this also happened to us.)

If I lived on an island cut off from all media, advertising, and TV, I might buy this, but in today's world, it's just a nutty POV. What, Bratz are somehow organic and innocent, but my desire to limit that is artificial, controlling anxiety?
post #209 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Our children get mass marketed to by giant corporations. This is not about letting them find what draws their interest naturally. These companies have entire departments aimed at decoding our children's psychology and figuring out how to develop toys that they will obsess on, and ensuring those toys and images are all around them and infiltrating their environments.

It's not like if we are hands off it will be simply up to our kids what they play with.
Ah. I wasn't understanding what you meant by the word "multinationals." I was envisioning people of mixed citizenship accosting our children with gender-specific flashcards.

I actually agree with what you're saying about the giant corporations, we just have a fundamental divide in philosophy. My mantra is "expand" rather than "limit" when it comes to formative experiences.
post #210 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
Huh??

Do you really think that adult interests are not already influencing children's play to a HUGE extent? This is BIG, BIG business. It's everywhere. As has been pointed out in this thread, it's hard to even buy a freaking toothbrush without a licensed character on it. (Yes, this also happened to us.)

If I lived on an island cut off from all media, advertising, and TV, I might buy this, but in today's world, it's just a nutty POV. What, Bratz are somehow organic and innocent, but my desire to limit that is artificial, controlling anxiety?
See my above post.
post #211 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
Ah. I wasn't understanding what you meant by the word "multinationals." I was envisioning people of mixed citizenship accosting our children with gender-specific flashcards.
post #212 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post
You would think I was asking for Andrea Dworken to be the assistant teacher.
Other than the fact that she's dead, I'd have been on board with this.

You did the right thing, OP.
post #213 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
Do you really think that adult interests are not already influencing children's play to a HUGE extent? This is BIG, BIG business. It's everywhere.
Exactly. If I don't make an effort to directly influence my child's internalization of gender roles, Disney certainly will.

It's not about wanting to limit my child's play. It's about wanting to limit the effect of profit-driven corporations on my child's play. SOMEone is going to have a powerful effect here, and I'd really rather it not be someone who's only interest in my child is the money that her mommy has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
My mantra is "expand" rather than "limit" when it comes to formative experiences.
I agree with this in theory, I just don't see how to give the alternate materials a fighting chance against the, say, Disney princesses, when the princesses are so incredibly prevalent. If your kids get junk food at school, at Grandma's, everytime you go outside, see their friends eating nothing but junk food, and have people give them bags of potato chips to take home, I don't see healthy food choices wining out. The same goes for negative cultural phenomena. Banning it completely might be excessive, but I think you almost have to limit it if you don't want to be dominated by it.
post #214 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
It's not like if we are hands off it will be simply up to our kids what they play with.
But it mostly is for my kids. Not that they've never succumbed to marketing. They did and learned a lesson. But most of the time they play very creatively and are not overly into commercial characters. I've said this a million times but the kids I know in my circle who pretend to be TV characters are the ones who are not allowed tv (and who go to Montessori school).

My kids' school is fairly mainstream in many ways (but not overly consumerist at all-it's not McMansions and SUV's). The big game they play ATM is "Jump Josie" It's an obsession. They learned it at a folk-dancing demonstration class that they took part in. Otherwise they play tag, kickball or foursquare).

The only kids I know who role play commercial characters come from different schools and not just public ones.

The only kids I know who are obsessed and don't play creatively are the ones whose parents are controlling their play and media consumption. I think it may go both ways actually. If parents make a big deal of forbidding something I think that can make it more attractive, but also if the parents (or other people) push it, I think that can also make it more of an obsession. FE if the child is always getting Spiderman/Princess toys and is told that that's what they should be playing with.
post #215 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post

I agree with this in theory, I just don't see how to give the alternate materials a fighting chance against the, say, Disney princesses, when the princesses are so incredibly prevalent. If your kids get junk food at school, at Grandma's, everytime you go outside, see their friends eating nothing but junk food, and have people give them bags of potato chips to take home, I don't see healthy food choices wining out. The same goes for negative cultural phenomena. Banning it completely might be excessive, but I think you almost have to limit it if you don't want to be dominated by it.
I think this is a YMMV thing. I've heard people say that Disney princesses are everywhere in their circle and I'm not doubting them for a minute. I'm sure it's true. I think it's like baby buckets.

Bear with me a moment I hear all the time about mainstream babies in buckets. I live in a mainstream area and I almost never see babies in buckets. They're not in slings either as it is not a crunchy area and most people have not heard of them. Babies are held in arms. I think the babies in buckets are probably more common in suburbia. I only see them among the upper middle class and they are very rare. Ironically there are a lot of crunchyish moms who uses buckets.

I think the Princess thing may be similar. I've heard people who live in suburbia say how big Disney princesses are. That's not the case here. It may be in certain neighborhoods but it's not in my area.
post #216 of 331
Thread Starter 
Ok... an update.

The "ban" was not instituted at the middle of the year or anything unfair. This preschool has had the policy of no superheros since the 1970's. It's in their little parent handbook. I don't think anyone has considered that policy since the 1970's. The teaching staff and the director are thrilled that I brought the idea of princesses or licensed charatcers up for discussion. The moms of boys are glad because they see the policy as being uneven.
It's the moms of girls who are pissed.

I also want to throw out, to the person who wrote "most normal kids are going to want the sparkly lunchbox, not the plain one" etc.... be careful with your word choice "normal" because it can be very hurtful. These kids are predominantly learning disabled, on the A spectrum, have cerebal palsy, downs, etc. So, maybe your "normal" child would indeed not be satisfied with a plain lunchbox or backpack, but my special little child is happy with his blue and red one, he says "bue! wed!" and he is happy with his choice. It does not have to have a licensed character on it for him to be happy.

My issue is, little girls are bringing barbie/princess/etc lunchboxes and t-shirts and shoes and backpacks. It's not a consistent policy and I am all about consistency with children.

There is a parents advisory board meeting next week. Apparently the mothers who are offended by the suggestion of expaning the restriction to include princesses/barbie/bratz are very mad... but told the director they want their comments to be "anonymous". When asked about lifting the restriction altogether, these moms said they want to keep the heros ban in place because "without it the boys will be rough with their little girls and it's good to limit the violence." Aaaaagh!
post #217 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post
I also want to throw out, to the person who wrote "most normal kids are going to want the sparkly lunchbox, not the plain one" etc.... be careful with your word choice "normal" because it can be very hurtful. These kids are predominantly learning disabled, on the A spectrum, have cerebal palsy, downs, etc. So, maybe your "normal" child would indeed not be satisfied with a plain lunchbox or backpack, but my special little child is happy with his blue and red one, he says "bue! wed!" and he is happy with his choice. It does not have to have a licensed character on it for him to be happy.
Hmmm, is this what you're referring to?

Quote:
Here's the thing: MOST three-year-olds do not want to celebrate their three-year-oldness with plain backpacks, plain lunchboxes, and plain white diapers. MOST of them want to express themselves with images that are meaningful to them. If your kid is happy with the plain stuff, that's fab, and maybe that's his own way of expressing himself. That would sure make him unusual though. What I suspect is that the plainness of his school accoutrements actually is actually an expression of your own social/political views. Because I have to say you've clearly put a lot more thought into it than I've put into my daughter's Hello Kitty lunchbox. Which she picked out herself.

Peace.
I don't actually see the word "normal" in that entire quote. Nice spin, though.

Quote:
My issue is, little girls are bringing barbie/princess/etc lunchboxes and t-shirts and shoes and backpacks. It's not a consistent policy and I am all about consistency with children.
I agree that the policy is inconsistent, and I agree that the mothers to whom you are referring are being unfair. I just am not on board with your desired end result.
post #218 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelzharon View Post
Instead of telling your little girl how powerful princesses have been in the real world (Lady Di) you just outright ban princesses because of a few disney movies?
umm...the kind of princesses the OP wants to add to the ban are the Disney type princesses. Do you really think she'd object if a bunch of the little girls got together and pretended to be doing an interview about the international problem with land mines??

Quote:
Little girls like to play with pretty things, why is it hard for you to understand that? Instead you have to turn it into some ridiculous feminist movement, and now you've complicated and confused your child who doesn't think like that at all. She just wants to have fun.
"Little girls like to play with pretty things"? Ugh. I'm not a feminist and this comment grates on my every nerve. Lots of little boys like to play with pretty things - ds2 is wearing a pair of barrettes, even as we speak. While I liked dress-up reasonably well as a kid, I was just as likely to put on an old men's jacket and a hat as the fake fur coat and pearls. DS1 used to wear stick-on earrings when he was 2-3, and loved to show off how "sparkly" they were to anybody who would listen.

Quote:
Little boys are going to play rough. Take away all the cartoons, superheroes, play weapons etc etc... and they'll just use a stick or garden tool or whatever suits their fancy as a proxy. They'll play just as rough, but now not in a safe environment. As a parent, and adult it's our responsibility to provide a safe and controlled environment for children to play in. Providing rules and letting the boys understand boundaries and personal space will go along way towards limiting any serious harm happening. Letting little boys pretend to be superman is not the worst thing that can happen...
...and even more nauseating gender stereotyping here. My most beloved toy as a little girl was a cap rifle - I also devoured superhero comics of all kinds, and still own somewhere around 1000 of them. One of my oldest son's favourite toys as a small child was a baby doll, which he absolutely doted on. Despite his total fascination with Power Rangers, Spider-Man and swords, he almost never played guns - found them boring. He was also very gentle in his play with other kids...unlike dd, who is very aggressive.

I think there's a very definite gender issue here. Disney Princesses, Bratz, etc. are aggressively marketed to girls - even more than Spidey is marketed to boys. I think it's sick that corporations are dictating gender identity to our kids. I also think it's sick that we think this is somehow normal. Girls are not all into dressing up, shopping and playing with "pretty things"...and boys are not all into superhero play, guns and trucks. I'm not personally opposed to weapons play at all...but dd is just as into it as her big brother (more than he was at her age). Comments such as "little girls like to play with pretty things" and "little boys are going to play rough" simply feed into the same nonsense Disney is shovelling down the throats of little girls.

I'd like to see less marketing to kids, in general. I'd really like to see less marketing that's skewed along the lines of ridiculous, exaggerated stereotypes about appearance, power and gender roles. (Where the heck is Wonder Woman? She's been around since the 30s! What about Hawkgirl, Supergirl, Batgirl, and dozens of others? Is someone afraid that female superheroes might cut into the sales to boys?)
post #219 of 331
Oh, StormBride. Clearly, you're just abnormal.

I think there's a tribe for us somewhere...
post #220 of 331
StormBride, you do realize that almost everything you were interested in as a little girl is CURRENTLY banned by the OP's daycare.

Why aren't you a feminist?
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