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I started a Princess battle at preschool - Page 14

post #261 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Right, and I did too. But that is not proof that Barbie play, with the unrealistic bodies and overfocus on being pretty and fashionable, did not seep into your psyche in some way.

I know for myself I struggled with body image issues for a lot of my life, from girlhood through adolescence on up. I am still not totally over those issues. It was not ALL Barbie, but OTOH Barbie sure didn't help.
Oh, for sure. I'm just saying that these things that influence us are PART of who we grow into, but not the be all, end all necessarily.

For whatever reason, I was fortunate to escape the body issue stuff. Was it because of sports and knowing what my body can do? Was it just being a tomboy for so long and not paying attention to the "girl" stuff? Was it just dumb luck?

I have no idea.

I still think it's totally fine for parents to limit what their kids see, particularly regarding mass-marketed stuff.
post #262 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Well, and I will be so bold as to say that none of us escaped it. We all see effects in differing ways, but I don't think ignoring 'girl culture' is an out. Gender role stuff is EVERYWHERE, from infancy on up.

Do you have body image issues? Do you find yourself needy/codependent in relationships, especially those with men? Do you have difficulty being assertive in conflicts?

Those are some issues that I notice are extremely present in women I know, and I think they have a lot to do with gender role indoctrination and what we see as acceptable ways for women and girls to be.

Granted, but let's not forget that men are bombarded with gender-identity messages as well. We haven't cornered the market on victimhood.

I truly think little boys have it a lot harder than little girls--I think they have a lot fewer options for dress, play, everything, that are broadly accepted for their gender.
post #263 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
Granted, but let's not forget that men are bombarded with gender-identity messages as well. We haven't cornered the market on victimhood.

I truly think little boys have it a lot harder than little girls--I think they have a lot fewer options for dress, play, everything, that are broadly accepted for their gender.
I would not say boys have it 'harder' than girls, but I absolutely agree with you that men and boys get bombarded as well. And I am procrastinating on my homework just a little longer to respond to this post. I think we have focused on princesses in this discussion coz the superheroes are already banned.

But yes, messages that say boys cannot be nurturing, cannot be weak or vulnerable, cannot cry, cannot be pretty or sparkly, cannot need to be held and loved and comforted, etc etc... those messages are also very damaging and help set up a crap dichotomy between genders that in the end perpetuates much heartache and even violence.

I dearly hope there is a little penis-having-person growing in my uterus right now, and if there is I will make certain that he is as shielded as my daughter from messages that would seek to prevent him from experiencing and expressing the breadth of his humanity.

And now this pregnant mother is all teary, and I have to go do this stinkin' document study for school!!!!! If you see me on here in the next few hours, shoo me away.
post #264 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I dearly hope there is a little penis-having-person growing in my uterus right now, and if there is I will make certain that he is as shielded as my daughter from messages that would seek to prevent him from experiencing and expressing the breadth of his humanity.
Though we've been arguing opposing approaches on this thread, I just wanted to say that was nicely put, and in my own way I'm totally on board with that. Back to work, you!
post #265 of 331
Thanks. And yeah... back to freaking work! Put down the keyboard, walk back over to the notes on the sofa... Do not trip over the naked 3 year old on the way.

See ya later.
post #266 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jescafa View Post
Fair enough, but what we've been talking about all along is making that choice for a larger group of kids, not just your own.
In that respect, I think if Superman is out, Snow White should be too. Because to do otherwise is just...well...silly, imo. Definitely not a fan of the double standard there, and I happen to find the superhero 'message' faaaar less troublesome than the princess 'message'.

But if both were currently allowed, I personally wouldn't advocate for banning either from school/daycare, despite the fact that I want to limit my kids exposure to it. The key word here for me is *limit*, not completely eliminate (because it exists and it's so common, you can't eliminate exposure to it entirely without never allowing your children to leave the house).

Almost everyone censors what their children have access to to some extent, we all just have different criteria for what we consider harmful. Gender stereotypes, or violence, or sex, or nudity, or marketing, and so on.
post #267 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post
In that respect, I think if Superman is out, Snow White should be too. Because to do otherwise is just...well...silly, imo. Definitely not a fan of the double standard there, and I happen to find the superhero 'message' faaaar less troublesome than the princess 'message'.

But if both were currently allowed, I personally wouldn't advocate for banning either from school/daycare, despite the fact that I want to limit my kids exposure to it. The key word here for me is *limit*, not completely eliminate (because it exists and it's so common, you can't eliminate exposure to it entirely without never allowing your children to leave the house).

Almost everyone censors what their children have access to to some extent, we all just have different criteria for what we consider harmful. Gender stereotypes, or violence, or sex, or nudity, or marketing, and so on.
I'm wholly opposed to bannings, including bannings in the interest of equanimity, but other than that I actually totally agree with you.
post #268 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post
Definitely not a fan of the double standard there, and I happen to find the superhero 'message' faaaar less troublesome than the princess 'message'.
I do, too...largely because I find the superhero "message" considerably more multi-layered and complex than the princess "message". Princesses - at least the modern, Disney variety - are very...shallow. Despite many people's belief to the contrary, most superheroes aren't. They don't solve all their problems with their fists, and I think they have a lot to offer in terms of problem solving skills (that's what this was all about in the first place, right), and they all demonstrate qualities of self-sacrifice, generosity, etc. I just don't see too many redeeming qualities in "The Princesses".
post #269 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Do you have body image issues? Do you find yourself needy/codependent in relationships, especially those with men? Do you have difficulty being assertive in conflicts?
Body image issues, yes, sometimes but I can lay them at the feet of my family :P.

The others no, and TBH I've never understood why women are like that. Like I said, I missed out on a lot of that kind of socialization. I was (and still am) a bookworm.
post #270 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shonahsmom View Post
Ah, Chicagomom has made some great book suggestions as well.

Hi Chicagomom!
Hi Shonahsmom! Hi Shonah!
post #271 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post
I am so glad you all understand my point!!

I just want the policy to be fair and consistent. I don't allow either aggressive heros, or passive princesses, in my house.

I'm the only lesbian mommy at the school, so I am *positive* some of the parents are wanting to reply anonymous because they are saying "it's NORMAL for little girls to do this..." etc. As if I don't understand "normal" because my own sense of gender rightness is warped.
Um, I hate princesses. We have an anti-Bratz, anti-Barbie philosophy in our house and I have gone over the implications of the stereotype with DD in our house many times. The passivity is a problem, the materialism and product tie-ins are a problem, and the overemphasis on appearance over every other worthy quality a woman can possess is a BIG problem.

And I am not a lesbian. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm a mother who wants her daughter to aim for a life of doing something more than waiting for her prince to...uh...come.

Not that there's anything wrong with that either.
post #272 of 331
I agree that both sets of characters, princesses and superheroes, should be restricted, because of the marketing to children element, but I think the "problem solving" justification is silly. I would ask:
What constitutes good problem solving? What is an example of a children's character who exhibits good problem solving? For every specific individual character being banned, what, exactly, specifically to that character, is wrong with that particular character's problem solving?

I have no problem with princess or superhero stories. We love some of the original "princess" fairy tales, which were originally morality tales. The much-maligned Cinderella, for instance, is in the original story being rewarded for her good heart, in contrast to her vain, superficial stepfamily. But the Disnified Cinderella is part of the marketing scheme promoting vain, superficial behavior. Disney and Barbie and pop culture have corrupted these stories about honor and sacrifice and duty and morphed them into the snotty/bitchy/sexy/arrogant/snide/bossy/vain/materialistic/"girl-power" divas we all know and hate. We've had several conversations at our house about real princesses and civic duty and sacrifice. The same is true, I'm sure, of superheroes, although that would be my husband's area of expertise (he's interested in classic comics). But I know that many of the comics are more complex and sophisticated than the bang-bang-pow-pow-shoot-the-badguys stuff that's peddled.

Preschool is a bit young, but if I were teaching older kids, maybe middle school, I think it would be great to do a "fairy tales and comic-book heroes" unit in which we examined the stories, their messages, and how they changed with marketing.

ETA: I think it's funny that so many object to the princesses' being passive. That's the least of my objections to them. I'm all for passivity. But, vanity, selfishness, materialism, and shallow power-hungry greed, not so much.
post #273 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
and if you are an involved parent, those things dont always happen.
True, and smokers don't always get cancer. That's not a convincing argument. And I will still shield my children from inhaling toxic substances insofar as I'm able, and advocate for other parents to do so as well.

Quote:
and I will never read a one sided extremeist view book like you recomended. i dont believe in extremisim, on any side.

and my kids hopefully (unless they request it) will never attend school, and if they do, it will be at one where their clothing and other choices arnt censored.
The fact that your children don't attend school means you are already censoring their access to our media-saturated consumer culture.
post #274 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah's mom View Post
I agree with your approach, from the perspective of - if they're going to ban one, they need to ban the other. Or neither. Definitely seems like a double-standard going on there.
:

As one who desparately HATES the whole princess thing, I'm stearing my girls toward the Power Puff Girls (they kick a$$).

I don't see why the "lesbian-thing" would be an issue. I'm as straight as a board ( I just thought of that ), and I totally agree with you! Then again, maybe I'm an "abnormal" girl. I always preferred using the dolls as patients when I played doctor to playing family or whatever . . .
post #275 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJamie View Post
There is something VERY wrong with letting little children play "cowboys and Indians".

FWIW, I agree with basically every post thismama has made in this thread, so I'll just say a big : to her.
Clearly something is VERY wrong when you go the other route and take measures like this into consideration.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21397455/

When you rely on extremism to push your agenda you end up making mistakes like this.
post #276 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelzharon View Post
Clearly something is VERY wrong when you go the other route and take measures like this into consideration.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21397455/

When you rely on extremism to push your agenda you end up making mistakes like this.
Are you seriously saying that mothers shielding our children from mass marketed princess images is the same thing as suspending a child over a drawing of a stick figure shooting a water gun?

Holy crap, man. :
post #277 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagomom View Post
The fact that your children don't attend school means you are already censoring their access to our media-saturated consumer culture.
i am not homeschooling to avoid the media culture, i am homeschooling because it provides better education and he wont be exposed to either side of extremisim.
post #278 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
i am not homeschooling to avoid the media culture, i am homeschooling because it provides better education and he wont be exposed to either side of extremisim.
Wait, are you censoring 'extremism?' :
post #279 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelzharon View Post
Clearly something is VERY wrong when you go the other route and take measures like this into consideration.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21397455/

When you rely on extremism to push your agenda you end up making mistakes like this.
I think the other person was referring specifically to "cowboys and Indians" not to any gun play. The idea of encouraging my child to "play" at what was essentially genocide is pretty gross. Cops and robbers, pirate, superheroes I'm fine with. Cowboys and indians...no way.


Thismama, you've totally rocked this thread! I pretty much agree with everything you've written.
post #280 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Wait, are you censoring 'extremism?' :
nope, theres no way to censor extremisim when its on the daily news and in your next door neighbour
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