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SD's friend can't come over any more...and here's why. - Page 6

post #101 of 120
I agree with ThisMama and others. I may do so apologetically, but yes, I will be more cautious with a man as a caregiver for my daughters. I still don't think that in any way justifies the comments and actions of the mom mentioned in the OP.
post #102 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
The politically correct thing to say might be that men and women are equally suspect, but that is not statistically correct. I deal with reality. Men are more likely than women to sexually abuse a child. That is a simple fact.
I'm the last person anyone ever accused of being politically correct, but that's okay.

I don't care about statistics. If there's only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, and I leave my kid with her, the statistics really don't matter, do they? I care about the specific person/people my child is with. Besides...while sexual abuse is absolutely vile, it's not the only kind of abuse there is. I'm not going to be feeling too self-congratulatory about how well I protected my kids, if they get through to adult without having been sexually abused, but I find out someone was emotionally abusing them for years, yk?

When we categorize men in our heads as being high risk to hurt our kids, I think we simultaneously cloak women in an imaginary cloak of harmlessness. That's the part of the focus on men that scares me - this mindset does include a certain amount of "innocence by contrast" where women are concerned...and a lack of a penis doesn't mean someone can't/won't harm children.
post #103 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
If there's only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, and I leave my kid with her, the statistics really don't matter, do they?
Well... that's technically true. But, if there is only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, then the chances of you leaving your child with her are only one in 6 billion.

So... statistics do matter. :

Quote:
Besides...while sexual abuse is absolutely vile, it's not the only kind of abuse there is.
True. But it is pretty unlikely that another parent is going to physically (non sexually) assault a friend's child while in their care. They would just send her home if they were becoming so enraged that they wanted to physically lash out. And, if someone did assault her physically or treat her badly emotionally, she would probably tell me, we would talk about it and I would not send her back there.

Sexual abuse is different, because it is so often a child's first experience of sexuality, and it can involve coercion, blame and pressure to maintain secrecy. Not the same thing as a one time physical assault or cruel emotional words.
post #104 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group.

That problem has nothing at all to do with this issue.
This was said so eloquently, I feel it had to be repeated. By saying men make up the vast majority of child molesters does not marginalize "men" and reinforce the power position of the dominant group......... because men ARE the dominant group to begin with. That's what makes this much, much different than other examples used: ie, the African-American homicide analogy.
post #105 of 120
Thread Starter 
Wow, this thread's gone in some weird (but expected, I suppose) directions.

Anyhow, to whoever asked if I was married to my SO: No. But it's a long-term partnership, functionally like marriage (though not legally -- we've got shared finances and mutual wills and powers of attorney and all that) and we will formalize it eventually. I use "SD" here because I'm not big on the "D-" prefix ("DSD") and it's good shorthand otherwise, as the issues are the same. (I'll use "future stepdaughter" IRL if necessary, or "SO's daughter.") As for whether that was the issue with the mother: I doubt it's that simple (see below) -- but I'm not sure if she knew whether we were married or not. It's not something I hide, but not something I go out of my way to mention explicitly (why would I?). If that was the issue, I'd rather she mention that directly. At least the objection wouldn't seem so odd.

And as for why this mother only found this stuff out after the playdate -- she made an assumption, I guess, and found out after the playdate that her assumption was incorrect.

BUT, the real reason I'm posting:
The plot thickens...I got curious and ran her name through my state's court system Web site (it's a public database, lots of people use it for background checks, even though it's not the most accurate way of finding things out) and found out she divorced in 2004 AND has a restraining order against a male, not her ex-husband, who shared an address with her at the time the order was requested in late 2006. I ran a check on the male with the restraining order against him and found he's awaiting trial on "disorderly conduct." (He also has a 2002 no-contest plea to theft, but that's neither here nor there.) That could be anything, including a downgraded domestic battery. He has a new address, at least.

So...yeah, while this COULD be anything, whoever suggested that perhaps the mom is projecting her own issues onto everyone is quite possibly...right.

I know my SO doesn't want to restrict SD's friendships based on the friends' parents (that's why we like playdates here or in public)... but perhaps it's for the best.
post #106 of 120
ProtoLawyer, I think this thread went the way it did because there is not much controversy in the fact that you are long term partners but unmarried. It is clear to most that that should not matter. The issue for debate is in the male caregiver factor.

It also does sound like the mother has issues, and sounds like you uncovered some possible information about why.
post #107 of 120
Now that I've learned some of the "scoop" on this woman -- I don't think I'd want to send my child to HER house. But then, at least she followed through on her restraining order, and didn't drop it, like so many women do.

Still, she sounds really psycho, not someone I'd want my children in contact with.
post #108 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Well... that's technically true. But, if there is only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, then the chances of you leaving your child with her are only one in 6 billion.

So... statistics do matter. :
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care if there's only one woman in the world who would sexually abuse a child. I have no way of knowing if any given woman is that woman...so I give an "extra screening" to anybody with whom I'm going to leave my child.

Quote:
True. But it is pretty unlikely that another parent is going to physically (non sexually) assault a friend's child while in their care. They would just send her home if they were becoming so enraged that they wanted to physically lash out.
You think? I don't. If the person in question feels that corporal punishment is okay, they may very well think they're doing your child a favour by smacking her around.

Quote:
Sexual abuse is different, because it is so often a child's first experience of sexuality, and it can involve coercion, blame and pressure to maintain secrecy. Not the same thing as a one time physical assault or cruel emotional words.
hmm...I was sexually abused, and emotionally abused even further by his wife. Oddly enough, it was her "cruel emotional words" that left the really bad scars...and her emotional manipulation (ie. "coercion, blame and pressure") that kept me in the sexually abusive situation. That kind of thing can also occur independently of sexual abuse, and I know 8 children right now who I know are living with it every day of their lives...at the hands of their mother.

I'm also of the opinion that there are other forms of sexual abuse, besides actual molestation. The not-uncommon game of shaming female (or male) children for their sexual urges and behaviour - the attempts to make a daughter feel like a whore because she's reaching a tumultuous phase in her sexual development - the attempts to force a girl into a sexual mode that suits the parent...I've seen that and more from mothers, and it screws girls up sexually - not in the same way as being molested, but it definitely does mess with their sexuality.
post #109 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care if there's only one woman in the world who would sexually abuse a child. I have no way of knowing if any given woman is that woman...so I give an "extra screening" to anybody with whom I'm going to leave my child.
Nothing wrong with that. However, you said the stats don't matter, and your reasoning for that was illogical IMO. Stats do matter.

Quote:
You think? I don't. If the person in question feels that corporal punishment is okay, they may very well think they're doing your child a favour by smacking her around.
Well, I'm not going to leave my child with someone whose views on corporal punishment I'm not familiar with. :

Quote:
hmm...I was sexually abused, and emotionally abused even further by his wife. Oddly enough, it was her "cruel emotional words" that left the really bad scars...and her emotional manipulation (ie. "coercion, blame and pressure") that kept me in the sexually abusive situation. That kind of thing can also occur independently of sexual abuse, and I know 8 children right now who I know are living with it every day of their lives...at the hands of their mother.
Hey, I agree that mothers can be emotionally abusive. I just don't see what that has remotely to do with this issue.

Quote:
I'm also of the opinion that there are other forms of sexual abuse, besides actual molestation. The not-uncommon game of shaming female (or male) children for their sexual urges and behaviour - the attempts to make a daughter feel like a whore because she's reaching a tumultuous phase in her sexual development - the attempts to force a girl into a sexual mode that suits the parent...I've seen that and more from mothers, and it screws girls up sexually - not in the same way as being molested, but it definitely does mess with their sexuality.
Sure. But again, we're talking about mothers and daughters, vs. selecting a temporary caregiver for our children. Not what we are talking about in this thread.

I wouldn't leave my child with a woman who would say shaming things about my child's sexuality to her, of course. But again, that's a whole other level than actually being sexually abused, and not really the same discussion IMO.

I know the people who watch my child when I am not there pretty darn well. And I am extra careful with men. That is what I am saying, nothing more.
post #110 of 120
Fair enough. I don't get being "extra" careful with men, myself.

I guess the biggest area where we don't see each other's point here is that you seem to be willing to accept the women as being whatever they self-represent themselves as. I'm not. I've met too many hypocritical women who appear in public - and even to friends - as whatever they think will serve their purposes, and turn into hellhounds when people's backs are turned. I can guarantee that nobody ever thought twice about leaving their children in the care of my oh-so-sweet grandmother, for example.


ETA: Thismama...are you supposed to be back here, or should I shoo you off to your homework?
post #111 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Fair enough. I don't get being "extra" careful with men, myself.

I guess the biggest area where we don't see each other's point here is that you seem to be willing to accept the women as being whatever they self-represent themselves as. I'm not.
I never said anything of the sort, that is all your own projection IMO.

Quote:
ETA: Thismama...are you supposed to be back here, or should I shoo you off to your homework?
No, I am not supposed to be here. But OMG my brain is numb. Heading back to it...
post #112 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoLawyer View Post

Any advice on how, or whether, to tell SD that she can't see her friend any more? (She met this girl through a park program, which she's since outgrown, and she doesn't go to the same school. So this is probably it.)

Is this normal? Are we really at this point where all males are automatically disqualified as caregivers, even for an afternoon at the playground? (What would this woman do if her child had a male teacher -- or "worse," a male speech therapist who meets one-on-one?) Are children who are being raised by single dads just not allowed to have friends over at all?

Any insights will be helpful. Thanks.
Wow. That mom's got issues. Sounds like she was cheated on. She sounds pretty bitter about it too. (Not implying that your SO cheated on the x with you either! But my guess is she had a prob with her husband or a fam member's husband so now she thinks ALL men are like that!)

I think that's probably going to have to be "it", I doubt the mom will get over her issues. Just tell your daughter that her friend's mommy is having "adult problems". Or something that is closest to the truth that would make sense for her.
post #113 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
This is not prejudice without a basis, it is statistical reality.....

The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group. ....
But it's no more a inflamed or false data to say that the majority of violent crimes (murder, assault, rape) are committed by African American males -- they are. Are there mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to those statistics that would give us a truer picture of the situation? Absolutely. Just as there are mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to the statistics on molestation that would give us a truer picture of the situation.

As someone pointed out upthread, 50 years ago white parents in the Arkansas public schools were just protecting their kids as they saw it, too.
post #114 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaffyDaphne View Post
But it's no more a inflamed or false data to say that the majority of violent crimes (murder, assault, rape) are committed by African American males -- they are. Are there mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to those statistics that would give us a truer picture of the situation? Absolutely.
Yes, there are.

Quote:
Just as there are mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to the statistics on molestation that would give us a truer picture of the situation.
No, there are not. I know women who in childhood were molested by older male siblings, adolescent neighbours, uncles, fathers, step-fathers, grandfathers, the dude whose house they walked by on the way home from school... the list goes on.

Honestly, truly 50% of my female friends and lovers were molested in childhood, all by men. Not one of those men was ever criminally convicted of the crime. They remain free and unchallenged, and I am sure they have made more victims.

LOTS and LOTS of girls (and also many boys) get molested in childhood, by male relatives, friends, and acquaintances, in seemingly random circumstances that could not be predicted. These men look and act like everybody else, and they are everywhere.

It sucks, but it is what it is. There are no mitigating statistics on this issue that will keep my daughter safe.

Except me. And I am one fierce of a mitigating statistic.

I was surprised to see this thread come up in new posts. I thought it must have gotten pulled.
post #115 of 120
I'm sorry that this is so difficult for you, and wish you much peace.
post #116 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaffyDaphne View Post
I'm sorry that this is so difficult for you, and wish you much peace.
What a passive aggressive non-response to the issue.

It's not difficult for me at all, apart from the fact that child molestation sucks. I would hope that's no less difficult for you than it is for me. I have much peace. I am simply not naive in my approach to the issue.

I wish you much open-eyed clarity and the strength to protect your children.

ETA - And you know, this whole "OMGZ it's like racism!" line of thinking is non-sensical and a real distraction. If you lived in an area where there were random drive-by shootings and children were being killed, would you send your children to play in your front yard unsupervised?

I would hope not. Just basic common sense. That is not 'discrimination.' Fact is children unsupervised with men can = molestation as much as children playing outside while drive bys are going on can = murder.

Pretty simple equation.
post #117 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
What a passive aggressive non-response to the issue.
I'm sorry you feel that way, it sure wasn't meant to be. The rest of your post reinforced my feelings, though.

I really do wish you gentleness and peace.
post #118 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaffyDaphne View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way, it sure wasn't meant to be. The rest of your post reinforced my feelings, though.

I really do wish you gentleness and peace.
And I wish for you to participate in an direct and logical way in the discussion. You know, actually respond to my points, and I respond to your points... the usual way people have a genuine conversation.

Until then, peace out.
post #119 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
And I wish for you to participate in an direct and logical way in the discussion. You know, actually respond to my points, and I respond to your points... the usual way people have a genuine conversation.

Until then, peace out.
Peace out.
post #120 of 120
It seems to me that this isn't even about a man being there. I think the other mom is mad about the divorced part. Is she very religious, perhaps? Maybe she was cheated on and relates to your DH's ex. There could be a lot of reasons (however odd) for this.
If it were about a man, then playdate number one never would have happened.
I wouldn't tell SD why, personally. If she ever runs into the girl, you don't want her telling her anything bad about her parents. I would just say that it isn't a good time and leave it at that.
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